Lots of opinions here, but not too many dealing with the reality that it is trauma, not bullet weight, diameter or any other arbitrary measurement, that kills game. A .25-06 is fully capable of inflicting ample trauma on the vitals of a kudu-sized animal to kill it about as efficiently as any other centerfire cartridge of reasonable size.

Kudu are tall but slender-built animals which are not nearly as demanding of bullet performance as, say, an American Wapiti. All I've killed or seen killed seemed "softer" than other African game, but a sample of only three is not necessarily enough from which to draw a conclusion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah there can be brush or bone or whatever to interfere with the delivery of the bullet to the vitals, but the same is just about as true with a large caliber and heavier bullet -- there is no such thing as "brush bucking" ability, at least not to the extent that many would pretend there is.

Bottom line: If you want to use your .25-06 go right ahead. There is a 99% chance that you'll be just as successful on kudu with it as with some other rifle -- and an even greater chance of being successful than with a rifle that isn't as accurate or that you don't shoot as well.

That said, I've got a wonderfully accurate .25-06 that kills deer and javelinas like lightening. But I'll choose a .30-06 or .300 Magnum for my kudu hunting simply because that's what I feel most comfortable with, and won't have to drag along too many different rifles and types of ammunition for my plains game hunting trip. Because a .25-06 'tain't your best choice for zebra or eland or even oryx (although they most often they'll die from a typical dose of .25 caliber jacketed lead).

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Frankly, I'd worry just as much about the bushbuck, but then I tend to overgun.

+1,

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Lots of opinions here, but not too many dealing with the reality that it is trauma, not bullet weight, diameter or any other arbitrary measurement, that kills game. A .25-06 is fully capable of inflicting ample trauma on the vitals of a kudu-sized animal to kill it about as efficiently as any other centerfire cartridge of reasonable size.

Kudu are tall but slender-built animals which are not nearly as demanding of bullet performance as, say, an American Wapiti. All I've killed or seen killed seemed "softer" than other African game, but a sample of only three is not necessarily enough from which to draw a conclusion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah there can be brush or bone or whatever to interfere with the delivery of the bullet to the vitals, but the same is just about as true with a large caliber and heavier bullet -- there is no such thing as "brush bucking" ability, at least not to the extent that many would pretend there is.

Bottom line: If you want to use your .25-06 go right ahead. There is a 99% chance that you'll be just as successful on kudu with it as with some other rifle -- and an even greater chance of being successful than with a rifle that isn't as accurate or that you don't shoot as well.

That said, I've got a wonderfully accurate .25-06 that kills deer and javelinas like lightening. But I'll choose a .30-06 or .300 Magnum for my kudu hunting simply because that's what I feel most comfortable with, and won't have to drag along too many different rifles and types of ammunition for my plains game hunting trip. Because a .25-06 'tain't your best choice for zebra or eland or even oryx (although they most often they'll die from a typical dose of .25 caliber jacketed lead).

I had a 235 grain CEB Raptor Extended Range bulet blow up on a bushbuck's shoulder and it looked like a grenade went off, there was nothing left of the shoulder joint. But the bullet didn't penetrate to his vitals and he almost got a horn into my PH on the follow up.

Heavy bullets that penetrate from now on for me.

quote:

Bottom line: If you want to use your .25-06 go right ahead. There is a 99% chance that you'll be just as successful on kudu with it as with some other rifle

You can kill kudu with a 243 Win using 100 grain bullets - it has been done before - but is it ideal?
The answer is no due to the high velocity that shatter frail bullets that is limiting.
Much better to use a 180 bullet of the same type in in 30-06 as it can deal better with weight loss.
Even better to use a monolithic bullet that expands and stay together and still penetrate deeper.
It is not all about calibre.


Pieter

I will take my custom 7 Rem Mag also. I just love the feel of that Dakota.

I'm a fine one to talk about a rifle being too light as I plan on taking a 7mm Weatherby next year, but I'll also have my .416. I'll use the Weatherby on the plains and the .416 for all the close in work.

The reality is the 25-06 will definitely do the job on Kudu and all the others.

I flattened 2 kudu with a .270 and 130 gr. TBBC. No Problem. It's all about shot placement.

Some ask why, I say why not! Just go for it and like with ANY other cartridge, pick your shots and place the right bullet in the right spot. Simple.

I've taken more Buffalo with a 7 Rem Mag than with any other caliber. BTW floored 60% with the first shot and most of the rest never made 100yds.

Its all to do with shot placement, nothing more.

25-06 for Eland? go for it but consider the distance as it is quite a "meaty" target.

quote:

Originally posted by Rsm458Lott:
I will take my custom 7 Rem Mag also. I just love the feel of that Dakota.

Use it then mate.

I killed 3 Cape Kudu with a 257Wby and X bullets. Only one needed a finisher........

If I was going to use a 25-06 now, here is the bullet to use;

Peregrine Bushmaster VRG 3

http://besthuntingbullets.com/...rg-3-bushmaster.html

.30-06 is ample, thus I'd say 25-06 is too. the animal doesn't know the difference in that 1mm of diameter. Your biggest problem is bullet weight, and, thus, penetration. The bushbuck, (and possibly warthog), will probably not be more than a 75yard shot. A bullet in the right place does wonders. I'd go for a bigger caliber, always, but if you take the 25-06, take the heaviest possible premium grade bullet you can find for it

The .25-06 will Bo the job with the right bullet put in the right place. Some countries, like Zimbabwe have minimum power floors, and for kudu it is 3kj, or 2,200 ft/lbs at the muzzle, and the .25-06 will easily do that. It really comes into its own as a calibre for reloads though.

Not sure what the reason is for this propensity for using too little gun,

I'm guessing it makes some feel macho or just the need to experiment as to how insufficient a gun can be that sometimes gets the job done.

Been there with the insufficient gun, and revealed my inexperience and unwillingness to accept reality.

Guided a lady who used a 25-06 on her Kudu, and it worked just fine.

These are the words of Jack O'Connor, who perhaps said it best, in the very first edition of Gun Digest, published in 1944:

" . . . here's one rule the hunter should remember in choosing his big game rifle: it should be adequately powerful for the largest game he is apt to encounter under the most unfavorable conditions."

That is a good rule, and rules out the .25-06 for kudu, even in a game park.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
These are the words of Jack O'Connor, who perhaps said it best, in the very first edition of Gun Digest, published in 1944:

" . . . here's one rule the hunter should remember in choosing his big game rifle: it should be adequately powerful for the largest game he is apt to encounter under the most unfavorable conditions."

That is a good rule, and rules out the .25-06 for kudu, even in a game park.

Bloody hell, we should all be carrying .700 Nitro Express when hunt then!

I have seen a lot of elk taken with the 25-06. i I would not hesitate using one on kudu.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
These are the words of Jack O'Connor, who perhaps said it best, in the very first edition of Gun Digest, published in 1944:

" . . . here's one rule the hunter should remember in choosing his big game rifle: it should be adequately powerful for the largest game he is apt to encounter under the most unfavorable conditions."

That is a good rule, and rules out the .25-06 for kudu, even in a game park.

Bloody hell, we should all be carrying .700 Nitro Express when hunt then!

My .500 A-Square is perfect!

Great.

I would like to see you shoot a kudu a few hundred yards with that

Actually I will be giving it a whirl with my single shot 577NE, cast bullets, in September.
( I anticipate some sarcasm from the trusty PH.)

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Great.

I would like to see you shoot a kudu a few hundred yards with that

Would have to hold about 12" high at 200 and hope for the best.

Jack O'Connor was my hero, and so was Elmer Keith.

I read everything they wrote.

But, having been hunting for so many years now, I find a lot of what they had written is just plain bullshit

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Actually I will be giving it a whirl with my single shot 577NE, cast bullets, in September.
( I anticipate some sarcasm from the trusty PH.)

I had to provide staff rations for about 8 years, 2 oryx/blue gnu per week, like clockwork. Used a .30-06 with 162gr cast bullet with gas check at about 2300fps. Works fine, Shot literally hundreds, never lost one. I also used a 417gr lead cast bullet with gas checks from a .458 at about 1950fps, to train my DJT. Would shoot the oryx/blue gnu "a bit soft" (very far back in the paunch), let it run a good 300 yards then let the little terrorist go. 9/10 times the animal was long dead before the mutt got there, but it was good training for him. A friend of mine makes my cast bullets for me. He mixes in a bit of tin and ends up with a Brinnel hardness #15. (some hardness factor, his own formula). Just made some 433gr bullets for my .500. I'm very sure your .577 will work just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Great.

I would like to see you shoot a kudu a few hundred yards with that

I would love to see that, and would not pass the shot on a big kudu bull if it was the best I could get!

When zeroed at 100 yards, I'd only be 5 inches low at 200 and 18 inches low at 300. And my usual 570 grain TSX bullet would have more retained energy than a 300 grain .375 has at the muzzle.

But I admit that I have so far only used my .500 for big DG at relatively close range.

I have compromised Jack's rule (at least to some extent) and settled on using a .375 when hunting PG in DG country.

Do whatever you want, but I'll stick to my (.375 caliber) guns on that choice.

+1 to that!!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Jack O'Connor was my hero, and so was Elmer Keith.

I read everything they wrote.

But, having been hunting for so many years now, I find a lot of what they had written is just plain bullshit

Hi Bung, That is interesting about your cast bullets. Thanks for the info.
I have my .577 NE, 700 gr. bullets heat treated to BHN of 21. They are a mix of tin antimony, copper, and arsenic. ( As I remember) They are not brittle when smashed with a heavy hammer.
They are for buffalo first of all. Brian

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
These are the words of Jack O'Connor, who perhaps said it best, in the very first edition of Gun Digest, published in 1944:

" . . . here's one rule the hunter should remember in choosing his big game rifle: it should be adequately powerful for the largest game he is apt to encounter under the most unfavorable conditions."

That is a good rule, and rules out the .25-06 for kudu, even in a game park.

Trouble with light calibers if you are at all off the mark then the wounding is also light. There are some great books written about calibers choice on game and I cannot recollect that the 25 06 is advised for large antelope.

Looking forward to the report and have a great safari.

I always find these cartridge/bullet arguments interesting, and this one is no exception. Like many of you guys, I've seen lots of animals shot in the past 44 years. In particular, I've culled well over 100 aoudad personally, and seen another couple hundred killed as well, with everything from a .243 to 30-378 Weatherby. What I've noticed is that properly place, well constructed bullets kill very efficiently throughout this cartridge range. Key there is once again "well constructed bullets". I've also noticed that piss poor shots, no matter that cartridge, are piss poor killers, period. Marginal shots are just, marginal. Last instance was a big ram that was shot with my hunter's 300 Wby Mag and 180 TSX's. The ram dropped like a rock, didn't move for 2-3 minutes, then got up and trotted off, never to be seen again, with very little blood. I do believe that in the small cartridge for game usage, mono's like the TSX/TTSX, ETip, etc work better at upper end MV's.

Easy one...

If you need to ask you have doubts. If you have doubts you lack confidence. If you lack confidence you start with a disadvantage...

If you need to ask my view is you probably know it's marginal. A 25-06 may limit your opportunities and/or tempt you to take the shot where its limitations will let you down.

My advice is a 30 cal with 7mm minimum. Not saying it can't be done though.

By the way I'm not sure it's legal for kudu everywherw or even maybe anywhere in SA. Provinces have some weird ordinances. The guidelines were to my knowledge never promulgated but Northern Cape hunting licences list minim calibres for example. Not that these rules are always followed.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
African hunters seem to like heavier slower bullets for their game.

I killed a few pronghorns with a 25-06, and one forkie mule deer.

Personally I'd rather have a slower round with more bullet. As much as I like the 7mm Rem Mag, I'd rather have a 30-06 unless I knew every shot was going to be over 300 yards.

No experience with kudu, but a well placed 25-06 120g premium bullet (A-Frame, Partition, TSX) well drop a big bull elk. Agree no quartering or rear end shots, not enough gun for that.

Our biggest kudu last season was shot by a 13 year Mexican kid using a .243 with 100 grain bullets. He struggled with the recoil of a 7mm caliber but shot beautifully with my 243. It was a 240 yard shot! Point is, a good shot from a light caliber is better than a poor shot from a larger caliber.

These discussions are always interesting because there are so many good opinions to consider.

The question for you RsmLott458 is where will you be hunting? Namibia, Northern Cape, Zambezi Jess, Zim lowveld, northern vs southern Greater Kruger Park, Bela Bela are all different and may influence your choice apart from the fact you love your 25-06.

For my 2c worth there 6 variables to consider:

Immediate Kill ~ abcAcc x abcCal x abcBull x abcTerr x abcDG x abcAtm

Where Accuracy, Caiber, Bullet, Terrain, presence of Dangerous Game, and Atmospherics are the variables. While I shoot competively to 2400 yds we can assume this for atmospherics is 0 unless it's desert of Namibia. If there is DG then this would be a variable - I ve felt naked in dense jess with a black rhino in spitting distance holding a Gibbs .505 but open veld, not a problem.

For each variable there are abc confounding factors that modify that variable. Let's take accuracy. Will you be shooting off sticks, bean bag, free hand, are you better with it than your 7mm etc

Bullets - the factors are speed, expansion, penetration, sectional density, breaking up etc

And so one can go on. How one weighs each variable and factor will influence your odds of an immediate kill without the risk of loss or spending a day tracking. I once spent a whole day trying to find a sable my friend shot in the quartering shoulder with 30-06 but poor bullet choice that never penetrated. It was pure chance we saw it over a mike away.

Notice the list of variables does not include pleasure except for weight of rifle for terrain. I have some rifles I just love using that sway my choices. Go for it but remember the factors in the odds. Accuracy trumps most.

Having said that, based on deer, mule deer, caribou, some 35 different plains, and being in DG terrain, every PG shot with TSX at 3400 fps with 30-378 has not taken more than a few steps, Gibbs .505 with TSX have sometimes taken a few more, but my favorites are two high velocity .375s (3100fps and 3300fps). Nevertheless, I ve never taken them for African plains or DG because of terrain, and weight / maneuverability.

What you choose is very is personal once you weigh the variables. In 4 weeks, I m taking my .577 for buffalo, quick shots for PG and my son will borrow a 30-06 for PG.

Have a great time! That s most important for the memories

quote:

my son will borrow a 30-06 for PG

One of the finest calibers around. Always will be.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

my son will borrow a 30-06 for PG

One of the finest calibers around. Always will be.

Your statement reminds me of my father! He always said that a 30-06 would kill anything that walks crawls, or flies with one shot across the county or up close!

You should have been there to hear the words when he was told the 30-06 was not allowed for shooting cape buffalo because it was too small.
I still have his FN Mauser 30-06, that he shot just about everything he ever hunted, most times a long way off with one shot!
...................................................................... too small?
............................
On the subject of 25-06 bring enough for Kudu, I see no reason, with a proper bullet, and proper placement, that it would be lacking for that purpose!
............................

quote:

quote:Originally posted by Michael Robinson:These are the words of Jack O'Connor, who perhaps said it best, in the very first edition of Gun Digest, published in 1944:" . . . here's one rule the hunter should remember in choosing his big game rifle: it should be adequately powerful for the largest game he is apt to encounter under the most unfavorable conditions."That is a good rule, and rules out the .25-06 for kudu, even in a game park. Bloody hell, we should all be carrying .700 Nitro Express when hunt then!

A number of others have different opinions, but I agree with Mike. I tend to hunt where there is dangerous game and a .416 in hand is a comfort. I don't want to end up like Bob Fontana.

My .426 is good to 200 yards for medium sized and large plains game and I've stretched it to 300 on rare occasion. Dead on at 100, it's 6" low at 200 and 21" low at 300 with a 400 grain soft or solid.

Only if I feel I'm likely to need to shoot beyond 200 yards will I carry anything else. And then, one of the trackers will be carrying the .416.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

my son will borrow a 30-06 for PG

One of the finest calibers around. Always will be.

Your statement reminds me of my father! He always said that a 30-06 would kill anything that walks crawls, or flies with one shot across the county or up close!

You should have been there to hear the words when he was told the 30-06 was not allowed for shooting cape buffalo because it was too small.
I still have his FN Mauser 30-06, that he shot just about everything he ever hunted, most times a long way off with one shot!
...................................................................... too small?
............................
On the subject of 25-06 bring enough for Kudu, I see no reason, with a proper bullet, and proper placement, that it would be lacking for that purpose!
............................

Mac,

Mine was also a FN Mauser and has taken many buffalo and hippo in its time. For hippo we used a 220 grain monolithic solid. I swear that bullet could drive through the largest hardwood tree you could find.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

my son will borrow a 30-06 for PG

One of the finest calibers around. Always will be.

Mac,

Mine was also a FN Mauser and has taken many buffalo and hippo in its time. For hippo we used a 220 grain monolithic solid. I swear that bullet could drive through the largest hardwood tree you could find.

My dad didn't think any caliber was better than the old 30 gov (30-06) and I can't remember a shot that missed it's mark with him shooting, regardless of standing, running. or distance with that old rifle. I still hunt deer, and wild hogs with it on occasion. I will say that I have never taken it to Africa but may some day if I live long enough being in my 80th year and counting!
...................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

my son will borrow a 30-06 for PG

One of the finest calibers around. Always will be.

Worked well on my leopard!

I will be hunting outside of Port Elizabeth

Rsm458Lott, my friend shot his kudu there at 400yds with a 30-06. Great place to be.