You book a hunt 3 years in advance, a year later the world economy tanks and the govt hikes the trophy fees and all of a sudden the hunt is unaffordable, so 2 years before the hunt is due to start you cancel and ask for your deposit back. When you get your deposit back the outfitter has kept 10% as an admin fee, the deposit was a good couple $1000.

Right or wrong?

What does the contract say?

Say thank you!!

Geez tht seems like a small price to pay...

Depends what was in your contract though... if it said full refund then that is what it should be.

I guess it depends on what "deposit" means to you. Deposits usually create obligations on both parties, i.e., to pay portions of the total at particular times (or suffer some percentage of forfiture) and on the P.H. or outfitter to hold the dates open, maybe buy a lease or concession, etc.

Of course, a deposit may actually be just "earnest money" in its purest state, that just being money to "hold" showing that the client is "serious" and not really obligating anyone to anything. I think that rare?

A good contract (while it may not be practicably enforeable across oceans) is still a good roadmap for fair minded folks to use and not get pissed if one holds the other to their agreement. In other words, being a grown up, if I signed something that said if X occurred, then Y would result.. how the hell could I question that and maintain any intellectual integrity?

All that said, without a question asked, two folks who sometimes post here have given me back 100% of my deposits when I had a pretty good excuse to cancel. Good men, they.

Heck, it cost a bunch to run a business and it takes working capital to run one. Deposits, quite legally, can be designed to provide for the costs of "getting ready" for clients. If someone spent money prospectively for my forthcoming trip, that should be at my expense, particularly if they can't re-market my slot.

JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by Scott450:
You book a hunt 3 years in advance, a year later the world economy tanks and the govt hikes the trophy fees and all of a sudden the hunt is unaffordable, so 2 years before the hunt is due to start you cancel and ask for your deposit back. When you get your deposit back the outfitter has kept 10% as an admin fee, the deposit was a good couple $1000.

Right or wrong?

I'm not trying to "lawyer up" here because I ain't one but IMO unless this contingency was specified in the contract, the contract called for a hunt with X trophy fees. If the trophy fees have been changed to a substantial degree then the the person who would have to pay them should have the option of canceling the hunt/contract and receiving all of his money back. I think between people who have any sense of fairness that canceling a hunt two years out is more than sufficient advance notice and should not incur any penalty because the outfitter has plenty of time left to resell the hunt.

All that said, if the hunter REALLY canceled because HIS financial situation had changed then I think he should consider the 10% as a reasonable fee for changing his mind. In short, it's a very close call and would require considerable more detail to make an accurate judgment. As mentioned above, a written contract would probably have solved the problem.

"verba volant, scripta manent"

A 100% refund is not so common JudgeG, you met fine people.

In Italy, by law a 10% of the total amount for a booking is normal, and it is normally declared not refundable.
The travelling companies have different policies, but the not refunded percentages in accordance with remaining time are declared in the contract. 10% if over 6 months from the term, 50% within 6 months to the term, 100% within the last two or three weeks to the term.

By my experience is common and normal to have back a little less than 90%. The "little less than" covers the bank expense.

quote:

the deposit was a good couple $1000.

this is about $200? I wouldn't worry about it.

The answer is . . . it depends.

With a written contract, the parties can and should specify whether and under what conditions a deposit is refundable.

Without a written contract, the parties may still have an oral agreement - although figuring out what they intended with respect to any given issue can be next to impossible without divine intervention.

who is going to enforce anything for $200? Contract law doesn't get interesting until the number approaches $50,000 and I bet even higher when you cross borders.

This is all about reputation and doing what is right (not making a judgement on this case at all). He may or may not win this in the forum of public opinion.

Regardless of the contract with how the operators are financially right now he is lucky to get anything back.

Given Scott's scenario one thing that has not been mentioned is the possibility of cancelling but rebooking a less expensive safari. That way the client gets to hunt and the agent and or outfitter doesn't have to make a refund.

What I find is if a client is over extended as far as his safari is concerned he will still want to go to Africa and be more than happy to accept a less expensive alternative. Another thing that clients often find helpful is letting us rebook them for the same safari but further in the future. This allows the clients more time to organize their finaces.

To answer right or wrong on the 10% cancellation fee question it is only wrong if contract/terms/conditions did not specifically address the fee.

Mark

I had an outfitter keep part of a deposit once on a leopard hunt that was cancelled due to some injuries sustained to the PH just prior to me going to Africa to hunt, making the hunt not doable. They wanted us to reschedule, but we said no, because it then did not fit into our schedule. We asked for a return of our entire deposit (no contract due to the fact that someone else that we had worked with for years in Africa set it all up for us), and he unilaterally kept 20% and returned the rest. I will never book with him again if he was the very last outfitter in Africa, for sure, and would never book with anyone without having that issue addressed up front, in writing.

I really would care as it seems any contract with an over seas safari operator is just about worthless when the hunter tries to collect because the company didn't fill it's obligations as to where you would be hunted, etc. .

I just booked a hunt at substantial discount that was rescheduled three times then canceled. The safari company rescheduled three times and that represented good faith. It is always in the best interest of the client to pay as little as possible up front as this might be lost. Also the booking agent can also enforce his own rules as long as they are in the contract. I have never has a contract but I do get a signed accounting of costs, fees, and charges. Someday this might come back to haunt me but no problems so far.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I had an outfitter keep part of a deposit once on a leopard hunt that was cancelled due to some injuries sustained to the PH just prior to me going to Africa to hunt, making the hunt not doable. They wanted us to reschedule, but we said no, because it then did not fit into our schedule. We asked for a return of our entire deposit (no contract due to the fact that someone else that we had worked with for years in Africa set it all up for us), and he unilaterally kept 20% and returned the rest. I will never book with him again if he was the very last outfitter in Africa, for sure, and would never book with anyone without having that issue addressed up front, in writing.

This is unacceptable1

It was HIS problem that changed the dates, not the clients, so the client should not have had to pay anything.

I suggest you post the name of this outfitter, so others should avoid him.

I have no problem the PH keeping part of the deposit if the client changed his plans.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I had an outfitter keep part of a deposit once on a leopard hunt that was cancelled due to some injuries sustained to the PH just prior to me going to Africa to hunt, making the hunt not doable. They wanted us to reschedule, but we said no, because it then did not fit into our schedule. We asked for a return of our entire deposit (no contract due to the fact that someone else that we had worked with for years in Africa set it all up for us), and he unilaterally kept 20% and returned the rest. I will never book with him again if he was the very last outfitter in Africa, for sure, and would never book with anyone without having that issue addressed up front, in writing.

This is unacceptable1

It was HIS problem that changed the dates, not the clients, so the client should not have had to pay anything.

I suggest you post the name of this outfitter, so others should avoid him.

I have no problem the PH keeping part of the deposit if the client changed his plans.

+1 His name should be posted, for sure.

If he cancelled the hunt, you should get a 100% refund.

But, before we hang this guy on a classic impromptu internet trial, something you wrote makes me suspect there is a little more to this than meets the eye.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
(no contract due to the fact that someone else that we had worked with for years in Africa set it all up for us), and he unilaterally kept 20% and returned the rest.

If you used someone else, I suspect the "someone else" kept a 10% commission (which would equal 20% of a 50% deposit.)

So it is possible that the operator only received 80% of the deposit or possibly he paid out 20% to the organizer.

Considering this, it is possible that the operator returned 100% of what he was paid.

This is another prime example of why cancellation insurance is a good idea. Buy a policy from a good company that covers things like this.

I am sorry this happened, and you are due a 100% refund. That I do not dispute. But I can also see the possibility of this being a bit deeper than what it appears to be.

Just a thought ... that's all.

Wendell: I was told by the individual that set up the leopard hunt for us, that the leopard outfitter himself was the one that kept the 20%, not the individual who set the hunt up for us. I have no proof that he (the individual) did not keep a portion, but I had hunted with that individual a number of times and he always seemed to be honest and upfront with us. I will talk with him and see if he can shed some more specifics on the issue and then we may post some names. I thought it strange that we wouldn't get it all back, but at the time we were scrambling to set up an alternate plains game hunt, as our airline tickets had been booked and we were only a few days away from leaving for Africa. The remaining monies were transferred over to the plains game hunt (which we subsequently did with this individual), but not 100% of it. That's why I would have a hard time believing that he would keep a 10% commission, knowing that we were going to do an alternate plains game hunt with him. But who knows? Thanks for your thoughts.

The entire situation is disappointing. You should have gotten your full refund, but I guess it is water under the bridge? Just didn't want to see someone who may be innocent, trashed here.

And no, I have no idea who this operator is. But I have been around AR long enough to see how a situation can get out of hand when only one side of the story is "available".

Name him.
Then get a rope.

Being a lawyer, I definitely know that there are two sides to any story. I am not interested in a pissing match with anyone. Those that know me here on AR, as well as personally, know that I don't go off half cocked. To minimize any issues, I have contacted the individual in South Africa to make sure that I have all of my facts correct and will wait to hear back from him before I post anything further. This event occurred in July of 2007, so yes, there has been some water under the bridge, and since that time I have shot two leopard in Zimbabwe, one being a real monster.

Surely you jest?
This is the internet, after all, and we don't need facts to have a lynching.

What was I thinking?

Get a rope!

early 2008 i booked a leopard hunt .... several months later, my service truck with all my tools was stolen.... about $40k worth... truck was recovered, but i lost all the tools i owned (and im an oilfield engine mechanic).... 20 yrs worth.... i was upfront with the outfitter, and he refunded deposit 100%....

quote:

Originally posted by jimatcat:
early 2008 i booked a leopard hunt .... several months later, my service truck with all my tools was stolen.... about $40k worth... truck was recovered, but i lost all the tools i owned (and im an oilfield engine mechanic).... 20 yrs worth.... i was upfront with the outfitter, and he refunded deposit 100%....

jimatcat:

That outfitter needs to be named as well, for being a stand up good guy.

I lost $32,000.00 on a paid for hunt bucause I was not willing to cough up the new daily rate as well as the increase in fees for Tanzania. Seemed to be an extortion of funds. Ph said he had no control over the increase in fees or trophy fees. I said I did and didn't go. Some will think me a fool. Perhaps, but I am sick of all of the BS one has to go through when dealing with African hunting companies.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I lost $32,000.00 on a paid for hunt bucause I was not willing to cough up the new daily rate as well as the increase in fees for Tanzania. Seemed to be an extortion of funds. Ph said he had no control over the increase in fees or trophy fees. I said I did and didn't go. Some will think me a fool. Perhaps, but I am sick of all of the BS one has to go through when dealing with African hunting companies.

That's not right. Not your fault.

I offered every hunter a complete refund when the fees increased. This was over $350,000 just in daily rates alone, no government fees. About half of the guys took advantage of it, and got a complete refund. Some guys moved their hunts to Zambia, some stayed on in Tanzania.

By the way, this was all with Luke Samaras. He said from day one, "Give them their money back if they do not like the new fees."

That is how you handle this kind of situation.

Two years ago, my friend was denied entry in SA because he did not have enough pages in his passport. The Outfitter, Rod Cockerill of Mukiwa Safaris refunded almost all of the monies for the 7 day hunt (minus PH fees for one day, and some money for the lodge he had booked the hunt with, and they gave a 50% discount). He did not have to do anything because it was my buddies mistake but he wired the money back.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I lost $32,000.00 on a paid for hunt bucause I was not willing to cough up the new daily rate as well as the increase in fees for Tanzania. Seemed to be an extortion of funds. Ph said he had no control over the increase in fees or trophy fees. I said I did and didn't go. Some will think me a fool. Perhaps, but I am sick of all of the BS one has to go through when dealing with African hunting companies.

There's another candidate for the hall of shame......he should be named.

On one of my trips to Africa, the contract said that Government taxes, licenses, trophy fees, etc. were subject to change. I can't remember if there was a "bail out" option for me if the changes were more than I could handle, though.

I, too, got caught in the TZ price change debacle. My P.H. offered a full return (and gave one to my hunting buddy) but I coughed up the extra several thousand bucks. The P.H. sent me an itemized statement of exactly how much his costs were increased by the gov't. I sure was glad that I didn't have a 21 day safari planned instead of a 10 day two buff hunt. The increased trophy fee on an elephant would have killed my whole reserve.

What was so darn tough on everyone was that the Tanzanian gov't sprung rate increases when already concessions had been bought, camps set up, quotas sold, deposits paid, airline tickets bought, etc. The Tanzanian government universally screwed everyone by changing the fees ex post facto.

I do think keeping entire $32,000.00 is most unreasonable, though. I doubt that the P.H. was out anything like that amount.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I lost $32,000.00 on a paid for hunt bucause I was not willing to cough up the new daily rate as well as the increase in fees for Tanzania. Seemed to be an extortion of funds. Ph said he had no control over the increase in fees or trophy fees. I said I did and didn't go. Some will think me a fool. Perhaps, but I am sick of all of the BS one has to go through when dealing with African hunting companies.

That is why I have started numerous threads and made several comments about the "real" role of an agent and what is expected of an agent. If the agent represents an outfit, he essentially "is" that outfit. If a contract is involved, then follow the contract. If not, the money trail dictates who is responsible and what can be confirmed by email and other written communication.

I have been asked to sign waivers and agreements between myself and agents and outfits. I have thus far not signed anything unless I have some protection against this very thing.

I still have not had the answer from an agent that says - "I am responsible for who I am representing. I am responsible to see that the outfit performs to the standard represented. I am responsible to refund money when a trip is cancelled within the terms of the agreements/contracts."

I value the information and guidance I get from an agent, but I sure want to have him "on the hook" in the deal should something not go as planned. Yes, I understand that all he has to gain is his commission, but you know what - that is not free money that is earned without risk. When an agent represents a hunt, he shares the in the risk of the outcome.

The biggist mistake I made was in wanting to pay for everything up front. I like it clean that way but have since changed my way of thinking. That hunt in Tanzania for 21 days cost a lot to begin with and had I really liked the concession owner and could have trusted him to do the right thing, I might have seen through to cough up the extra bucks. Almost double the monies of a safari I had taken the year before seemed insane to me at the time.

quote:

I still have not had the answer from an agent that says - "I am responsible for who I am representing. I am responsible to see that the outfit performs to the standard represented. I am responsible to refund money when a trip is cancelled within the terms of the agreements/contracts."

Ross,

I don't get the above as it would seem that it is what an agent should do. I just got through arbitrating an issue between a safari operator and a client. I almost threw in the towel but I think everybody has something they can live with now.

Mark

Don't know if this counts for much or if anything at all. I supplied Gras Ranch with the required deposit and fully expected to hunt. Unfortunately, I lost the eyesight in my left eye this past winter and was in and out of the hospital from Jan.14/08-March25/09. Gras offered to refund my deposit or apply it against a hunt next year, my choice. The contract called for a complete loss of my deposit in regards to Gras. I did, however, have insurance. This would have been my first African hunt. I'll be there next year.

Bobby B.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I lost $32,000.00 on a paid for hunt bucause I was not willing to cough up the new daily rate as well as the increase in fees for Tanzania. Seemed to be an extortion of funds. Ph said he had no control over the increase in fees or trophy fees. I said I did and didn't go. Some will think me a fool. Perhaps, but I am sick of all of the BS one has to go through when dealing with African hunting companies.

That's not right. Not your fault.

I offered every hunter a complete refund when the fees increased. This was over $350,000 just in daily rates alone, no government fees. About half of the guys took advantage of it, and got a complete refund. Some guys moved their hunts to Zambia, some stayed on in Tanzania.

By the way, this was all with Luke Samaras. He said from day one, "Give them their money back if they do not like the new fees."

That is how you handle this kind of situation.

That is the way to do business.!

Luke Samaras is to be congratulated on his honourable attitude.