Good day, gentlemen. It is perhaps a personality trait of mine in that I like to keep track of facts and analyze the information I glean. I remember, decades ago, of reading Capstick and seeing that whatever animal he was writing about was the most deadly and his escapes from death from them. I love Capstick, have all of his works, and reread a few of them at times. It was PHC that was one of the few stimulants that turned my thoughts toward Africa and, a bit later, double rifles.

Now to John Taylor. I love his works. Pondoro and African Rifles and Cartridges (along with JA Hunter's Hunter) are my absolute three favorite books and I read all three every year or two. I never tire of them. Taylor was the first to write extensively on the the subject of double rifle cartridges and everyone who followed him basically copies and/or rehashes what he has done. Boddington, Weiland, and others just reword Taylor's work.

I read with interest Taylor's experiences with double rifles and others. What sets him apart is he writes from personal experience. No one else has done this in the same magnitude he has. The professional hunters, such as Corbett, Bell, Sutherland, et.al. used a few rifles as tools and kept them. Today's writers may use many rifles but the fact remains the Africa of old will never be relived again and is on a rapid decline. Hunters and/or writers will never have the experience of the old timers. Taylor's writings are unique and they fascinated me with his armada of fine rifles but as I read, and reread over the years, of his experiences I wondered how a man could own, shoot, and hunt with so many fine rifles. By his own admissions he never had much money and what he did have he gave to his African friends. And, even in his day, double rifles cost many times the price of an inexpensive bolt action. Let's look at his rifles from the largest down (caliber size). I read from first editions of Pondoro and African Rifles and Cartridges and have note of the page numbers the rifles that are mentioned (but did not clutter the post here with page numbers). I also note below rifles Taylor used but did not own. If not mentioned as "used" it is assumed he owned the rifle based on his own statements. Here they are:

10-bore caplock
12-bore shotgun
12-bore Paradox
.600 a cheap one noted for double discharging, weight of 18 pounds
.600 regulated for 110 grains, by Jeffery weighing 16 pounds
.577 weighing 134 1/4 pounds
.577 Westley (may be the same as above)
.505 Gibbs used
.500 Jeffery used
.500 x 3" nitro
.500 black powder express

.475
.475 no2
.470 Rigby
.470 Manton
.465 pair of doubles
.450 no2
.450 no2 hammer double
.500-450
.450 nitro
.450 black powder express, Holland hammerless
.577-450 black powder single shot
.455 revolver

.425 Westley Richards
10.75 mm
.416 Rigby
.404 Jeffery
.400 Purdey
.400 pair of rifles
.450-400 Rigby single shot
.450-400 Purdey
.450-400 Jeffery
.450-400 3 1/4"

.375 magazine
.375 magazine
.375 magazine
.375 double
.375 double
.38 special revolver
9.5 mm
9 mm Chruchill
.360 no2 single shot
.400-350 Rigby
.350 Rigby magnum
.333 Jeffery bolt rifle
8mm Mauser
.303
.300 Holland
.275 Rigby
.256

.295 rook
.255 rook
.22 Savage Hi Power
.22 rimfire

To me, this seems like a lot of rifles for a man in his financial limitations and his location in remote Africa where, by his own writing, was away on safaris for 2-3 years at a time. But, I wasn't there. Neither was anyone else. So what say you gents? Is Taylor adding a bit of hype in his writings to back up his stated opinions? Is he writing in the first person from information in read or heard from of the experience of others? Or, did he just write knowing his word was gold as no proof could offered to discount his facts. Did he withhold money from Ali and others, travel to London or Birmingham, and have a few dozen bespoke rifles made for him? Could they have been purchased "off the rack" or bought used whilst in Africa? A combination of the above? I count about two dozen fine doubles.

What ever one posts here is opinion. The only facts here are the rifles listed in his two best selling books. As always, your comments are valued and appreciated.
Cheers, mates.
Cal



.

I suspect he owned some, sold some, traded some, bought some more, shot rifles owned by friends and acquaintances, etc. The fact that he was always broke might be an indication that he did in fact own quite a few rifles at various times. Of course, we can never dismiss the criticism of Capstick, that he borrowed experiences of others.

I am not a scholar about him, but my overall impression was that the man was always broke due to impudence, not that he was not making substantial money for his day and time.

He was a very successful elephant hunter/poacher, and that would imply he made a lot of money.

I suspect some of the comments about his poverty had to do with his needs were simple, and he was free about giving away things (probably thinking that making more money was as simple as getting off his duff and doing another run through Moz or whatever.)

Notably, he did not own any real property, and the guns, etc. seemed to disappear after he tried them.

I suspect his main uses for cash for himself were buying guns that interested him, buying booze, and paying his staff. If he would have been more prudent, he probably would have been a rich man, and not targeted by the local authorities the way he was; but instead he tended to be a hot tempered Irishman who couldn't resist telling the Brits around him off. That lead to his expulsion and his general being persona non grata in southern Africa.

Admittedly, this comes from some stuff I have read on line, his books, and Capstick's book, which may be less than an appropriate treatment of the man.

Interesting topic Cal.

Nice job of putting together a list of firearms Taylor owned/used. It has been awhile since I read those books and can't say I remember a lot about them at the moment.

What I can say is that in Taylors days, a lot of Europeans moved out to Africa for varying lengths of time. They came for many reasons. Some as civil servants, missionaries, for their health, to seek their fortune, to establish a new life. Many returned after a few years. Not all but probably the majority of these people brought firearms with them. When they left, they may not feel the need to take a .577 home to Chester. They may have needed money for the trip home.

In my youth, my father was offered a number of firearms at favorable prices by people leaving Africa. When we left my father sold seven rifles and shotguns. The point I am trying to make is Taylor probably had access to buy/sell/trade a number of fine firearms without going to Mayfair to pick them up.

Was everything Taylor wrote truthful, I have no clue. I do think it possible that over his career he would have had the opportunity to trade through and use that number of rifles. Possibly more.

I have no clue how many firearms you trade, but I would guess you have gone through quite a few nice firearms in your day.

There are more gaps than just a count in rifles.

Consider for a minute the commonly stated number of "5000 rounds of 375 H&H ammo shot at game"

How long would it take to fire 5000 x 375 rounds at game under hunting conditions ?

You fire a shot and everything runs ! Pondering this as a reality certainly raises questions ? Seems then all that was done all day was to shoot the 375 ?

And the cost of 5000 x 375 H&H rounds @ 8 pounds per 100 rounds as per the 1915 price list ?

The H&H Mauser rifle solids for 110 pounds and the 375 Flanged double 475 pounds

This was a huge sum of money and definitely out of reach of most at the time !

Gents:
Thank you for the thought provoking replies. I look forward to more.

"I have no clue how many firearms you trade, but I would guess you have gone through quite a few nice firearms in your day."

You are correct, I have gone through many and own a few now. But I'm not in remote Africa 80 years ago and I don't give all I have to my black camp staff.

True, Taylor made money from ivory. Also true that 500 rounds from his .375 (he owned five) is a lot of shooting and a lot of money. Today, at $75 per box of 20, that equates to 250 boxes or $18750.

This thread is raising interesting points and it was my desire to do so.
Cheers, mates, and again my thanks.
Cakl

Cal,

that said, what is ivory bringing per pound these days? I have read the black market in China gets a hundred dollars per pound. I'd believe that, remembering what my last set of Colt SAA Ivory one-piece grips cost me from Colt.


ALF,

back then game was less sophisticated in terms of the noise firearms made upon discharge. Look how many Elephants Bell is said to have shot out of a single herd. Look at some of the numbers Richard Harland (recently) took. Cull anywhere from ten to twenty, perhaps even a few more in a few to several minutes.

5000 rounds of .375? Figure in a hundred porters, and a PH might very well shoot that much in two seasons.

As far as Pondoro, it has been rumored for decades that he had intimate relationships with some of his African staff. Some say it was the reason for his expulsion from Africa.

Rich

Don't know if Bell had another source of income but after he retired from elephant hunting he purchased a 1000 acre estate and raced sailing boats. Taylor died a pauper. Besides being a cautionary tale for gun traders, might explain how Taylor was able to finance all of his gun purchases.

My guess, the list actually represents (i) guns Taylor personally used (irrespective of ownership) on a regular basis, (ii) guns Taylor personally shot (on a one-off or limited basis) simply because he had access to them through another person, (iii) guns that Taylor was familiar with through stories recounted to him from friends and associates that had personally used the weapons, and (iv) guns that Taylor heard about from friends that had heard from another friend . . . that had used the weapons. As has been discussed on other threads, I believe that most writers use a little artistic license in their works when describing personal experiences.

Cal,
I seem to recall that Taylor mentioned owning a double that fit him terribly, and did not shoot anywhere near point of aim. Since most of his infrequent shooting with it had been at very close range, he failed to realize this for quite some time. That would certainly indicate a borrowed or "acquired" rifle as opposed to a bespoke one. I would also guess that his irascible nature would have approved the telling of a few, shall we say, tall tales!
Tim

Mike's likely spot on, as is Tim. And, as Butler points out, while Capstick's biography raises some issues, I don't think he got tossed out of Nyasaland because he wasn't a landowner.

Mike beat me to it.

I would fully suspect that Taylor used rifles of others whether they were his owned guns or not. Plus he was aware of the reflated experiences of others with those various calibers.

For instance, during Teddy Roosevelt's safari I am quite sure he would have had ample opportunities ( but I don't know that he took them) while interacting with the many PHs and landowners, to try other rifles or cartridges that would have been additional to those that he had chosen to take along to hunt with.

He also failed to pay Jamieson's widow the money he owed him for illustrating his book. Irresponsible at a minimum or a thief at best.


Dutch

Cal, I think the first three replies are spot on! I believe that most of his rifles, and those he used that were loaned or just owned by others would all have been logged in his list of rifles he had used in the field. It is not inconceivable that he used/owned that many different firearms in his life time.

The fact is there were lots of firearms in Africa in the old days that changed hands as some would need money periodically and sell cheap or trade for a lesser rifle, and draw some boot in the transaction.

I know people today that have owned several hundred forearms over 40 or 50 years of hunting and shooting. I, myself, have owned what I would guess to be over 200 fire arms in my life. Some that I used extensively, and some I owned for several years and never even fired. In fact there are at least three in my vault today that I have owned for over ten years and have never been fired. I haven’t counted lately but I would estimate my battery today would top over 75 firearms of all types, and could be over 100. So, I guess the above statement lumps me in with Taylor and Capstick in the credibility issue.

But, I guess what I’m saying is, I don’t find it unreasonable that Taylor had experience with that many firearms, and I don’t remember his writing that he OWNED all the rifles he used over many miles and years in the fields of Africa.

Like Mike I believe most writers take a little literary license to make their writings more interesting to the reader! That to me is not a sin because one simply will not enjoy a technical manual, and need a little dream substance in a book to bring the reader to the place or subject being read!
...................................................................

Cal, you should email Brian Williams, I understand he hunted with and knew Pondoro . . . he might also be able to share some insights on literary license . . . or at least conflation.

I have read that Taylor was from a well-to-do family, I believe his father was a physician, and they provided him with an annual stipend. I have no idea how much, but it was enough to keep him in Africa, and perhaps in guns.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Cal, you should email Brian Williams, I understand he hunted with and knew Pondoro . . . he might also be able to share some insights on literary license . . . or at least conflation.

Is not Will the son of Pondoro?

I think we need to be mindful that anyone writing a book or books leaves out probably 95% of their life and usually we get only a small summary of what they actually got up to.

Take Jim Corbett for instance, the great man-eater tiger and leopard hunter of Northern India in the early part of last century. Nobody ever calls into question his exploits and there is no reason we should but in all six of his books we are obviously only getting a small sample of his day to day life and even when narrating his adventures when actually hunting the man-eaters he is not giving us a minute by minute account of his sometimes weeks or months when he was away in the jungle.

Taylor's writings will be the same where there will be huge tracts of time that he has not written about in his books. He must have shot untold animals for meat and probably many species of dangerous game that annoyed villagers or got in his way or even just for fun and he could not possibly give a blow by blow account of these in his books if he indeed even wanted to.

He often mentions different friends and acquaintances and he seemed to have access to various publications to keep himself up to date with what was happening in the shooting world. He talks of Elmer Keith, how he would like to meet him, and seemed to have a good knowledge of his exploits. He knew what others in Africa were doing and must have met up with these from time to time.

I don’t imagine he was as isolated or insular as we may think and likely did have access to a lot of firearms to try out whether he owned or borrowed as he often mentions. There are errors in his African Rifles book at least and I myself certainly thought 5000 rounds of 375H&H ammo is a lot to go through when I first read the book, maybe it is a misprint and should have been 500 who knows. After all he did spend a greater part of his lifetime ‘in the bush'.

Some posters on AR have at times posted how many rounds they fire in a year, some seem incredible, but I have no reason to doubt they do.

Just an observation, nothing more, but it appears that as time goes by, more and more people question the deeds of those that are no longer here to answer those questions.

Just because we have not been able to repeat the events that our predecessors have written about, does that mean they did not do what they claim?

quote:

And the cost of 5000 x 375 H&H rounds @ 8 pounds per 100 rounds as per the 1915 price list ?

ALF,
is the cost of .375 ammunition really a major issue considering the serious income-wealth made by an ivory hunter?
and after 30yrs in Africa, shooting DG and plains game,... does 5000 rounds really sound so unrealistic?
based on only 10yrs... its 500 rounds per/yr average.... ...on 30yrs: its under 170 rounds of .375 per/yr....

RE: the 1915 price list??... Taylor was only born in 1904, so it not much relevant to the period of
his long adult yrs in Africa.

But anyway, lets run with the 1915 price of .375 rounds @ 8-bp per 100,
How much was ivory worth a pound in 1915?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

back then game was less sophisticated in terms of the noise firearms made upon discharge.
Look how many Elephants Bell is said to have shot out of a single herd.

Bell had good days and bad days even when he came cross large herds with many good bulls.

His highest count in one shooting spree: was 19 bulls
His fastest: 6 bulls brained with 6 shots all in a fast couple minutes.
His highest monthly take: 44 bulls
His lowest monthly take: ZERO bulls.
HE also expressed his major disappointment-annoyance
when on one occasion he only bagged relative few bulls from a dream size herd loaded with quality bulls.

He could clean up a good number of bulls due to his dynamic hunting techniques of running with-beside
the herd as it fled.
He would also(when possible),take advantage to brain the furthest bulls and work his way back in on the herd.


His success was also attributed largely to his preferred 'brain shot', which riled the herd rather little-much less, allowing him
to take more bulls as they milled about, he stated -heart shot- bulls would cause much distress to the herd causing
its members to panick-flee much sooner, offering Bell much less time & opportunity on the bulls.

As for the nonsense some have said in the past on AR relating to their claim of 'endless amounts of game' on offer to people
like Bell,.. they really need to read his books!...since its on record that Mr.Bell could go for a month or more on one his
long safaris - and not bag one elephant!.

His best yr: 4200 in profits
His worst yr: 1837 in loss.

His highest yielding safari resulted in: 14,780 lb of ivory.

That particular yield of ivory grossed him 7300, minus 3100 for incured expenses- result: 4200 profit

a person with an ivory income like that, could easily afford 8-bp/per 100 rounds of .375H&H....

As mentioned by another member, the British colonial expats who went back home often gave away their guns to a friend or even to a servant or a local serviceman. This was common in India even as late as the 1980s.

The last of the British Tea Planters left south India around 1981 or so. A few were still around in Assam about 5 years later.

In 1979 I remember a Tea Planter gave away an English shotgun to a Forest Official who worked under my dad. That man's wife did not want a gun in the house and insisted that it be given away! I missed out on that opportunity as I would have grabbed it as a poor university student hunting with a Harrington & Richardson single barrel!

I suspect that it would been a bureaucratic nightmare to take the guns back to the UK.

Very interesting post .

I have an offer for Cal.

Cal, if you are interested in the information below, please contact me with a private message giving an email address and I will send it to you.



You were interested in Pondoro, his writings and his rifles.

My father gave me an old copy of his book, Big Game and Big Game rifles which I think was rehashed for the American market, leaving out some of the taller tales

He talks in there about "several times" bringing down 3 buffalo with one shot from a .375, all heart shot - that is one shot for three buffalo.

He also talks of taking 7 eland with one shot, whereupon the bullet passed through a tree and whistled on.

I have these pages photographed out of the book, and can send them to you if you are interested.

I think that they prove that Pondoro was not above talking bullshit.

Also from what I have read, he was not a rich man, and often lived off the charity of friends and tribesmen. I remember someone (was it Ian Nysschens in Months of the Sun) saying he visited Pondoro who was living in Mozambique and he said that Pondoro was living very simply and his wants were few except for whiskey, which visitors had to provide.

So I'm not sure how many firearms he actually owned, and for that matter how many elephant he actually hunted.

Has anyone read any reviews of African Rifles and Cartridges that were written by third parties contemporaneously with the book's publication? They might give some idea of how the book - and Taylor's veracity - were perceived at the time.

It makes sense for folks today to doubt things happening now that were common in the days of Taylor. First off nobody today spends year around on foot in the fields of Africa.

Just like the mountain men of the 1700s living off the land year in and year out among savage Indians, and weather of the mountains not seeing a white man for months on end.

Taylor lived among the natives dodging any government official that he came in contact with.

People who live that way do some things that seem impossible to us citified over weight people used to getting everything instantly at a grocery store and riding around in our air-conditioned and heated automobiles or flying on charter planes. With that in mind who are we to doubt!

.................................................................... BYE!

Don't know if it's true, but if he stiffed Jamieson's widow, that was not cool. Seems likely he was a homosexual, who cares, but while I think his knock out factor is total bullshit, his book is worth reading.

Whatever his actual experiences and some undoubtedly embellished but his thoughts on many of the calibers etc, still hold true today.

When anyone speaks on a subject in a vague manner or without detail then it leaves me in doubt.

Well, all I have to say is Taylor too, recommended the 450NE 3/14" as the ideal DR caliber

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Don't know if it's true, but if he stiffed Jamieson's widow

I think that he "stiffed" a few of his trackers as well

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Well, all I have to say is Taylor too, recommended the 450NE 3/14" as the ideal DR caliber

Reason why I sold mine and upgraded to a 500 NE to make up for my poor aiming abilities.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Don't know if it's true, but if he stiffed Jamieson's widow

I think that he "stiffed" a few of his trackers as well

...........................................................Or vice-versa!

Lavaca:
I believe I read that in Brian Marsh's book but I had heard it before. Doesn't surprise me, though, taking into account of his poaching.

Dutch

quote:

It makes sense for folks today to doubt things happening now that were common in the days of Taylor. First off nobody today spends year around on foot in the fields of Africa.

Just like the mountain men of the 1700s living off the land year in and year out among savage Indians, and weather of the mountains not seeing a white man for months on end.

Taylor lived among the natives dodging any government official that he came in contact with.

People who live that way do some things that seem impossible to us citified over weight people used to getting everything instantly at a grocery store and riding around in our air-conditioned and heated automobiles or flying on charter planes.

With that in mind who are we to doubt!

Very good assessment Mac and very accurate.

Bren 7x64

3 buffalo one shot
7 eland then on to whistle though some tree !

With what ?

This is exactly what I am trying to get to when I called out on the the 5000 number.

I am going to state this as a fact!

There was no 375 solid bullet designed and sold between 1927 and 1957 (because this was the time period in which Taylor hunted ) that had the physical ability to shoot through 7 eland and kill them.

3 buffalo / with a stretch.

One can line em up in a feedlot try as you wish you will perhaps pop two even 3 at a stretch but 7 ? I will go stand behind number 7 and will be quite safe !

There were essentially two commercial brands of ammo available at that time Kynoch and W-W Western.

The W-W Western Solid was essentially a pointed Copper clad FMJ with a very small < 20% flat meplat.

The Early 300 gr Kynoch Solids were pointed FMJ's. Though they out penetrated most big bores of the time they suffered the same fate as any other pointed bullet, they tumbled and that puts paid to any further penetration.

This is a original 1926 375 H&H ( a Jeffery ) with a original period correct 375 Kynoch round loaded with their 375 solid.

quote:

Originally posted by Bren7X64:
I have an offer for Cal.

Cal, if you are interested in the information below, please contact me with a private message giving an email address and I will send it to you.



You were interested in Pondoro, his writings and his rifles.

My father gave me an old copy of his book, Big Game and Big Game rifles which I think was rehashed for the American market, leaving out some of the taller tales

He talks in there about "several times" bringing down 3 buffalo with one shot from a .375, all heart shot - that is one shot for three buffalo.

He also talks of taking 7 eland with one shot, whereupon the bullet passed through a tree and whistled on.

I have these pages photographed out of the book, and can send them to you if you are interested.

I think that they prove that Pondoro was not above talking bullshit.

Also from what I have read, he was not a rich man, and often lived off the charity of friends and tribesmen. I remember someone (was it Ian Nysschens in Months of the Sun) saying he visited Pondoro who was living in Mozambique and he said that Pondoro was living very simply and his wants were few except for whiskey, which visitors had to provide.

So I'm not sure how many firearms he actually owned, and for that matter how many elephant he actually hunted.

Bren,

Would it be possible to post the photos of those pages on this thread.

I too would be interested in seeing them.

I don't know what all the fuss is about!

I have, personally, shot well over a 100 buffalo with one 375 caliber, 300 grain bullet!

Poor John Taylor, only 3?

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Don't know if it's true, but if he stiffed Jamieson's widow

I think that he "stiffed" a few of his trackers as well

That is about the most truthful thing I have read on Taylor in awhile. He was an "odd duck" for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:

quote:

Originally posted by Bren7X64:
I have an offer for Cal.

Cal, if you are interested in the information below, please contact me with a private message giving an email address and I will send it to you.



You were interested in Pondoro, his writings and his rifles.

My father gave me an old copy of his book, Big Game and Big Game rifles which I think was rehashed for the American market, leaving out some of the taller tales

He talks in there about "several times" bringing down 3 buffalo with one shot from a .375, all heart shot - that is one shot for three buffalo.

He also talks of taking 7 eland with one shot, whereupon the bullet passed through a tree and whistled on.

I have these pages photographed out of the book, and can send them to you if you are interested.

I think that they prove that Pondoro was not above talking bullshit.

Also from what I have read, he was not a rich man, and often lived off the charity of friends and tribesmen. I remember someone (was it Ian Nysschens in Months of the Sun) saying he visited Pondoro who was living in Mozambique and he said that Pondoro was living very simply and his wants were few except for whiskey, which visitors had to provide.

So I'm not sure how many firearms he actually owned, and for that matter how many elephant he actually hunted.

Bren,

Would it be possible to post the photos of those pages on this thread.

I too would be interested in seeing them.

I can't, but if someone PMs me an email address, I'll send the photos to him ... my initial offer was for Cal, but you'll do as well. - I have seen Cal's PM and emailed the "evidence" to him, so it should be up here soon.

It's there in B&W, along with some margin notes by my Dad full of question marks which I think were 1950's equivalent for WTF?

quote:

Originally posted by Bren7X64:

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:

quote:

Originally posted by Bren7X64:
I have an offer for Cal.

Cal, if you are interested in the information below, please contact me with a private message giving an email address and I will send it to you.



You were interested in Pondoro, his writings and his rifles.

My father gave me an old copy of his book, Big Game and Big Game rifles which I think was rehashed for the American market, leaving out some of the taller tales

He talks in there about "several times" bringing down 3 buffalo with one shot from a .375, all heart shot - that is one shot for three buffalo.

He also talks of taking 7 eland with one shot, whereupon the bullet passed through a tree and whistled on.

I have these pages photographed out of the book, and can send them to you if you are interested.

I think that they prove that Pondoro was not above talking bullshit.

Also from what I have read, he was not a rich man, and often lived off the charity of friends and tribesmen. I remember someone (was it Ian Nysschens in Months of the Sun) saying he visited Pondoro who was living in Mozambique and he said that Pondoro was living very simply and his wants were few except for whiskey, which visitors had to provide.

So I'm not sure how many firearms he actually owned, and for that matter how many elephant he actually hunted.

Bren,

Would it be possible to post the photos of those pages on this thread.

I too would be interested in seeing them.

I can't, but if someone PMs me an email address, I'll send the photos to him ... my initial offer was for Cal, but you'll do as well. - I have seen Cal's PM and emailed the "evidence" to him, so it should be up here soon.

It's there in B&W, along with some margin notes by my Dad full of question marks which I think were 1950's equivalent for WTF?

Thanks. Hopefully Cal will post them.