I too have been debating on a DGR for a buffalo hunt, in a few years, but also for an Eland hunt next year. This will be my first big bore, but I've owned a .340 Weatherby and did not find it unpleasant to shoot. The recoil was in my comfort range, admittidly near the top but in my range. I'm sure this is a rifle I want use alot, seems a bit silly to shoot deer with a 375/404, and for this reason I don't want to put alot of money in it. I'm a Winchester Classic owner so nothing else will do. I was leaning toward the factory 375 H&H to go with my 300 H&H, but tell me more about the 404 jeffery. It seem from other post I could pick-up a Win. Classic Sporter LT in 7mm STW and rebarrel it with a Lother Walter barrel for a round $1000. About the price of the factory 375 H&H. Would the factory Sporter stock hold up to the recoil of the 375/404? Where can I find load data, its not in my Nosler, Speer, Sierra or Barnes manual? What about case dimensions and drawings? Also recoil which is lighter the .375 h&h or the jeffery. Which one would you recommend for the first timer? Please tell me more. Like Ray I'm always looking for the Holy Grail of rifles.

mark65x55,
Some of my experience with .404 Jeffery. First i do not care for American rifles and therefore i can not answer your questions about "Classic" Winchester.

You will find loading data and drawings of the case at www.norma.cc

I buy my bullets from Woodleigh or Rhino.

I do not consider the recoil of a .404 to be worse than that of an .375 H&H or .358 Norma Magnum. I use to shoot about 30 - 40 rounds at the range without any additional recoilpads than the "Silvers" hard rubber pad i have on my Brno ZG 47.

So if you whant a .404 -you don't have to be worried, but maybe you will be saticfied with a .375 H&H too. Easy to get cases, a lot of bullets to play around with, factory rifles... But of course a .375 isn't a .404

/Husky

The 404 is a wonderfull easy cartridge to load for and shoot..I prefer it to the 416 Rem or the 375 for Buffalo, Lion, elephant. I can push it and get 2653 FPS with 95 Grs. of IMR-4831 with a 400 gr. Woodleigh soft or solid with reasonable pressures....but I don't as thats just too fast...I load it down to 2300-2400 FPS with aboutl 90 grs. of same....the 404 Jefferys is a grand old girl and my choice of the lot.

It is a much better round for buff than the 375 in my opinnion, albeit the 375 is a very capable caliber in most forms.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

So Ray I take it if you where limited to the .375 or the .404 for hunting Eland, Buffalo and maybe Lion you would take the .404. Thanks for the reply. Where do you find bass and reloading data?

Both Midway and Huntington's carry the brass and Alphin's ANY SHOT YOU WANT has the data, though it is a little conservative. I'd start with their loads and work up with a chronograph until I got 2400 fps. You can go beyond that but it really doesn't help any in the field, just knocks you around more.

Sarge

I dearly love my .404 Jeffery, albeit it cost several times the $1000 mentioned. The trajectory with X-bullets and reasonable reloads is pretty darn good. I used mine for plains game and buffalo with 400 grain bullets at 2400 fps. Several smiths who post here could make you a fine rifle. Check with John Ricks and others. Feeding may be a problem, but the STW Model 70 may be the way to solve that.
Have fun!

If you are interested in a SS model 70 in .375, e-mail me. I've got an extra!

[This message has been edited by judgeg (edited 03-29-2002).]

Mark,
Yes for the animals you named I would take the 404...

I have found that a 300 to 350 gr. loaded to near max is a flat shooting as a 270 gr. 375 H&H and a wonder for plainsgame, the 400 gr. for the nasty stuff...

It bothers me to compare the two as the 375 is such a fine cartridge..If I only planned on using the gun on one buffalo hunt, then I would opt for the 375 as it is probably more versatile. I would hate to face life without one of each. At the present I am having cold sweats at night and chillblains during the day as I am without a 9.3x62 and am working hard to correct that situation, scouring the country side in search of a nice Mauser in that caliber, least I have to build one.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

judgeg, you,ve got mail.

Ray, thanks. "If I only planned on using the gun on one buffalo hunt, then I would opt for the 375 as it is probably more versatile." Yes the 375 does look to be more versatile and it maybe cheaper overall, purchase price, brass, dies .....
By the way, what is the Holy Grail of rifles this week?

I have made 6-8 of the conversions on the winchester classic action. I started with either A 375 or the 416 super express. The action was fitted with either a Donnely barrel or a Kreiger. We use the same countour as the winchester and add custom furnature from the original barrel. One can go with a NECG bb front sight, bb sling swivle, and the NECG rear sight or you can go all the way with full custom. I always put the recoil lug on the barrel so we can use the original wood stock designed by David Miller. the action work is important but any good gunmaker can do it easily. Blueprint the action and add the barrel and off you go. The whole conversion will cost around 1000.00 or so. Prices do change. THe real plus is that you dont have to restock the gun and the barrel weighs less than the original. We have even made barrels lighter and did a full length bedding in the forearm. The whole package will weigh around 8.75 lbs.
The really nice thing about the Jeffery round is that it was offered in so many muzzle velosities that were all very effective on big game. You can choose the speed and therefore the recoil. 2125-2400 f/sec. You can start low and work up to some real knock out stuff!!!Considering the bullets that are available the rifle with 350 X bullets makes it great for plains game. Woodleigh softs and solids and you have it all!!!!
lb404

Mark,
This week it is a three way tie, 375, 9.3x62 and 404 Jefferys..Next week? who knows but these three will always be in the running.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

As to load data, I'm trying to duplicate .416 Rigby ballistics and use 93 gr. of IMR 4831 behind a 400 gr. Woodleigh, SN or FMJ.

Sarge

Sarge,
That load gets me 2463 in my 26" barrel...and 95 grs gives me 2662... I shoot 90 grs for 2375 FPS and that suits me fine..

In my old 1o.75x68 conversion to a 404 I shoot about 76 grs. of RL-15 for 2250 FPS and that cuts down on the recoil of this very light weight gun and still gives all I need for Buffalo. The 95 gr. load of IMR-4831 at 2662 shot very well in this 8 lb. wonder,but my lips fluttered for 30 minutes after each shot...

All loads are 5 shot averages over the chronograph at 12 yds.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Sarge,
That 93gr. load gets me 2463 in my 26" barrel...and 95 grs gives me 2662... I shoot 90 grs for 2375 FPS and that suits me fine..

In my old 1o.75x68 conversion to a 404 I shoot about 76 grs. of RL-15 for 2250 FPS and that cuts down on the recoil of this very light weight gun and still gives all I need for Buffalo. The 95 gr. load of IMR-4831 at 2662 shot very well in this 8 lb. wonder,but my lips fluttered for 30 minutes after each shot...

All loads are 5 shot averages over the chronograph at 12 yds.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
I'm shooting a 24" barrel in my Parker-Hale. I figure that the 2" difference costs me about 50 fps. so that should get me about 2400+/-.

HI,

MR. Atkinson I have seen 350 grain and 400 grains in the 404Jeffery, but have not found any 300 or 325 grain bullets in the 404J. Are there any bullets in the 300 and 325 grain weight for the 404 Jeff if so where could I find them. Thanks,Kev The only 320 grain bullet I have seen are the HV's from GS Custom

Hawk bullets makes 300 gr. for 404 Jeffery.
lb404

Ok Ray, I,m now sold on the .404, but I have a couple of questions. Since this cartridge has such a good case volume to bore volume it should be very easy on barrels and this is very important to me since i tend to shoot a new rifle a lot, several hundred rounds yearly and would not put my PH's or my precious rear end out on a limb until I had put at least 1000 rounds through it, the big thing is cost of PRACTICE bullets. So with that in mind, do you or anyone else for that matter know of a commercial mold suitable for this round or will I be putting in a call to Mr. Corbin for more swadging dies? HELP! richard

From what I hear it is a great dangerous caliber, a few people swear by it

HI,

I notice one of you gentlemen mention MR. Ricks,I have E-mailed him about this. I would like to see if he can get a 404J into a 375H+H. From all I have been told the answer is yes,so I am just waiting for his reply and then take it from ther. I have been told by others that it will be to much of a problem,but I think that may be because of a lack of working with this round,I hope. Thanks,Kev

HI,

One more thing the men that have the 404Jeff have you ever got a 350 grain to go 2700fps in it. I am thinking of going with a 25 inch barrel and would like to get a 350 grain bullet going 2700-2750 and then I will be happy. Kev

Yes, Kev you can get near 2700 out of a 300 gr. bullet...but my question is why? The purpose of a 404 or any big bore is not velocity, it is to kill big tough animals up close..Don't get into that American mindset that velocity is the holy grail of killing power...

If you want a plainsgame rifle then get a 300 H&H to go with your 404..I never liked the one gun safari idea, not practical and everything is a compromise...

I have seen cast bullets for the 404 but I have never used them...I know they are available.

HI,

I see that a 416 Remington will get a 350 grain going near 2700fps,so I guess that a 404J would get even more, as its case holds around 6 or so more grains of powder.And it will go into a 375H+H lenght action,just got off the phone with MR.Ricks.I also hear that it will go into a lighter rifle from what I make out of it,is that not so much the action is where you save the weight, a few ozs. It is that the stock will have to accomadate a deeper mag, so in fact the 404J will be slimer rifle,the combination of the shorter action and slimer rifle gives less weight and a slimer profile. I think I've got it,Kev

.404 Jeffery will it work in a rifle that started out as a mod 70 .338 win mag.i don't want to have a 404 built but a .338 ultra mag.remington says that the .338 ultra mag came from the 404 jeffery case,thanks,keith