I was just wondering if the USFWS lion import ban will apply to captive bred lions taken on RSA game farms. Anyone have a clue???

I believe that it does apply to them as well.

Yes it does. I posted a bulletin from SCI elsewhere on one of the other threads. They expect it to be problematic to get export permits for captive bred lions. USFWS does not believe that the hunting of captive bred lions has anything to do with conservation. For those who missed it, here it is again:

How The New U.S. Rules Will Affect Lion Trophy Importation Into The U.S.

Safari Club International is doing everything possible to help members and all hunters in the face of changing U.S. Government decisions that affect the importation of lion trophies from Africa to the United States. Below is a summary of the new rules.

New Rules Affect Hunts on or after January 22, 2016.

New U.S. rules affect the importation of any trophy from an African lion harvested on or after January 22, 2016. The rules were issued by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

Special U.S. import required.

Lions from southern and eastern African countries are considered "threatened with extinction." You cannot import a trophy into the U.S. without first getting a U.S. import permit, in addition to a CITES export permit. According to the rule, as of 2013 legal trophy hunting occurred in five southern and eastern African countries: Mozambique, Namibia, South Africa, Tanzania, and Zimbabwe.

Lions in western and central Africa are considered "endangered." According to the rule, as of 2013 legal trophy hunting occurred in three of these countries: Benin, Burkina Faso and CAR. Although the U.S. has the authority to issue permits for imports of endangered species for scientific research and enhancement of the survival of the species, they rarely do so.

The U.S. is not ready to issue trophy importation permits at this time.

Before it will issue permits for importation of trophies from lions in southern and eastern Africa, the U.S. will have to make a determination that the hunting of the lion and the importation of the trophy into the U.S. will "enhance the survival" of lions in the wild. The U.S. will most likely make this determination on a country-by-country basis.

Although the U.S. rule says that trophy hunting of lions can enhance the survival of the species, it finds that mismanagement of trophy hunting in some areas has led to unsustainable lion hunting. The U.S provides specifics about the problems that it found and makes suggestions for improvements in the management of lion hunting. This indicates the kinds of information and the types of management changes that the U.S. will need to see before it will issue permits. Since some of the changes that the US seeks could require major changes in the existing lion hunting structure in some countries, it is difficult to predict when and if the U.S. will receive the information it needs to satisfy its enhancement of survival requirements.

Captive-bred lions are also listed.

Captive-bred lions are covered by the U.S. rule. According to the rule, close to 90% of the trophies imported from Africa into the U.S. in 2013 (approximately 547 out of 629) were from lions bred and hunted in captivity in South Africa.

Permits for captive-bred lion trophies likely to be difficult to obtain.

The new rule makes clear that the U.S. does not intend to issue importation permits for captive-bred lions until it can be demonstrated that their hunting and importation enhances the survival of wild lions. The U.S. is currently of the opinion that captive-bred lion hunting and importation does not enhance species survival in the wild. The rulemaking says:

"We do not believe that the captive-lion industry currently ... reduces, or removes threats to the species. ... While it is argued that South Africa's captive-bred lion industry may reduce pressures of trophy hunting on wild South African populations, there is no substantial or peer-reviewed science to support such a claim. Likewise, there is no record or evidence to support claims that the captive-bred lion industry is supporting reintroduction into the wild in any significant way.

Lions harvested before January 22, 2016.

According to the U.S. rule, lions harvested before January 22, 2016 will not need a U.S. importation permit. Hunters should ensure that they document the date when they harvested their lion. This can be done with a hunting license, notarized letter, or similar official documentation that proves the lion was harvested before January 22, 2016.

Previously booked lion hunts.

Hunters who have lion hunts booked for dates from January 22, 2016 forward will need to obtain permits to import any lions successfully taken during these upcoming planned hunts. Since it presently is unclear if, when and from which countries the U.S. will issue importation permits in the future, SCI advises hunters to contact their outfitters to discuss their options.

What is SCI doing to protect its members' interests?

SCI's advocacy experts, including legislative, policy and legal staff, are carefully reviewing the rule to analyze strategies for potentially 1) expediting the US government's receipt of information necessary to issue permits; 2) facilitating communication between range countries and the U.S. government on lion management and conservation issues; and 3) challenging aspects of the rule. SCI will continue to update its membership on the progress of its efforts. For updates, please follow SCI's blog.

The entire 229-page U.S. rule can be read here.

The U.S. government has prepared a Fact Sheet (FAQ) on its lion rule that appears here.

Huge victory for the Anti's...

well, it looks like after January 22 there will be a huge surplus of expensive-to-feed lions in RSA! I am betting prices will crater and many will be slaughtered.

Don't you think it is ironic that the captive bred lions don't count in population numbers - but they do count when it comes to their import to USA and other countries.

typical USFWS PC bullshit. Big Government knows best!!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Don't you think it is ironic that the captive bred lions don't count in population numbers - but they do count when it comes to their import to USA and other countries.

Bingo.......... I have been trying to point that out but it seemed most just ignored it.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Don't you think it is ironic that the captive bred lions don't count in population numbers - but they do count when it comes to their import to USA and other countries.

Bingo.......... I have been trying to point that out but it seemed most just ignored it.

Well I don't know three fifths of bugger-all about lion genetics - but it seems to me that 'most' dismiss the captive bred lion population - when it suits their argument.

Every day you can watch the TV and see captive animals being revered as man-made genetic reserves - why not the lion? Seems strange to me...

I would think it would be easier to get an import permit ... while not demonstrably making a contribution to conservation of wild lions, there is no way to construe the taking of a captive lion as a threat to the species. It will be very interesting to see how the regs are implemented in practice. Can one get a ruling in advance, or does one have to roll the dice?

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
well, it looks like after January 22 there will be a huge surplus of expensive-to-feed lions in RSA! I am betting prices will crater and many will be slaughtered.

There will always be lion bones for asia. They will get slaughtered but they were always raised as chattel to get slaughtered. The males will get slaughtered the same time as females now unless they can sell some russian canned lion hunts.

The real pain will be in the taxidermy business in the US.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Don't you think it is ironic that the captive bred lions don't count in population numbers - but they do count when it comes to their import to USA and other countries.

Bingo.......... I have been trying to point that out but it seemed most just ignored it.

Well I don't know three fifths of bugger-all about lion genetics - but it seems to me that 'most' dismiss the captive bred lion population - when it suits their argument.

Every day you can watch the TV and see captive animals being revered as man-made genetic reserves - why not the lion? Seems strange to me...

Matt what I meant is that while captive bred lions are not part of the wild lion population, they are covered by CITES. Stats showing "hunter" imported lion kills include the captive bred lions. This makes the "hunter" kill of wild lions seem exceedingly high in relation to wild lion population numbers.

In truth the zoos of the world have been working on big cat genetics and were long before the lion farms started in SA. They move cats around from zoo to zoo domestically and internationally to address the problems with inbreeding. They keep lion sperm and eggs frozen for the distant future if needed.

The sad truth is though that thousands of big cats are euthanized every year because there are too many for the zoos of the world and the designer pet industry to handle.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Don't you think it is ironic that the captive bred lions don't count in population numbers - but they do count when it comes to their import to USA and other countries.

Matt,

You really think any of these idiots have any common sense??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Don't you think it is ironic that the captive bred lions don't count in population numbers - but they do count when it comes to their import to USA and other countries.

Matt,

You really think any of these idiots have any common sense??

No.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
I would think it would be easier to get an import permit ...

Russ, it would be nice to think there may be a chance to get a permit for Captive Bred Lion in South Africa, but the local breeder/outfitters seem to think it will not.

This wording from the USF&W: appears to preclude any permits at all IF the criteria end up being the rules.The last line appears to be Key.

"...Limited research has been conducted on the use of captive-raised lions for reintroduction purposes. Existing research has generally found that captive-raised lions are not as able to successfully adapt to conditions out of captivity and therefore, the success rate is much reduced compared to the use of wild-caught lions. Although some potential exists that the captive-lion industry in South Africa may benefit some local wild populations, additional research would be needed to verify this claim. As a result, we do not believe that the captive-lion industry currently contributes to, reduces, or removes threats to the species ”

Les

What is that? 82 wild lions imported into the US In one year. Sure does not seem like hunters are the problem. 20,000 wild lions? Majority of hunted lions taken by Americans? Less than half of 1% off take? Sounds sustainable.