It always amazes me the pontification that goes on when mention of a fenced area is brought up. I have a question for the fence haters. Which is true hunting?
scenario #1 A high fenced hunt on foot on 25,000 acres in SA
scenario #2 A whitetail or bear hunt deep in the wilds of Canada over bait hiding in a pop up blind

It also is worth noting the equipment evolution which has been adopted and is OK. What do you think the percentage of hunters using iron sights is? How many purists are using compound bows with their electronic rangefinder and elaborate trigger release? How many of you purists have and use ATVs.

My point is that none of these issues are right or wrong. They are simply personal opinions and nothing more.

The only animal I shot in RSA within sight of a fence was a warthog which had just run underneath one without stopping. I almost got a shot at a particular huge kudu which my PH said he had been trying to get for some client for five years. Fences do not degrade the hunting experience, at least on large properties.

The bottom line for me is that fences are specifically DESIGNED to impede and alter the free movements or either the target animals or their predators in some way, be it to protect them, limit their gene pool, etc.

If that wasn't true, why would anyone go through the trouble and expense to build one? Don't kid yourself. This is where the Kodiak/Austalia analogy falls down. A man-made island would be more comparable.

To each his own. They are a very mixed blessing at best in my book.

Bob (who hunts with iron sights sans ATV)

Some very interesting points raised. At the end of the day its is all personal opinion, in those last few minutes before you go to sleep as long as your conscience is clear good for you.

I must say however I am glad to see the majority understand the need for fencing mainly to keep unwanted elements out - although it does not stop them it makes it a bit more difficult.

I have hunted 2-3 times a season for the last +-16 years and have shot a lot of plains game. I have never felt that the fence has aided the outcome in any way.

This reminds me of the man who posted on another site.

He said he does not believe hunting in Africa is hunting at all.

Because he does not equate using a PH to guide you is hunting as far as he is concerned.

I think the poor sod is missing something.

I consider hunting with others as a team, and one can get a lot of enjoymanet out of everything that goes on there.

From the tracking, spotting and finding the animals.

One can actually participate in these if he so wishes.

Good points by all. However, on my weekend fishing trip, I took it upon myself to get a visual of 36 sqare kilometers.
That is a friggin' huge chunk of property!
Seriously, throw in some trees and hills, and you won't beleive how utterly immense a task it would be to traverse such a property in it's entirety!

I have hunted on "non fenced" area's and on our 500 ha farm which we use as a weekend project. on the "non fenced" hunt every animal was located easily and shot quickly = great hunt.

On our 500 ha farm we have been trying to shoot off all impala rams for a black impala breeding project and let me tell you I have been out every weekend for the last three months and the hunting has been hell dificult. This little exersice of taking off 49 rams has turned out to be more challenging that ever thought.

And for those about to say it, we have not used vehicles to shoot from, there just is not a road and the terrain is too bad to traverse.

Each man to his own, but dont fling mud over the fence when reality is an unknown concept to yourself

I love fences!

Last trip, we put a bull's horn maneuver on a flock of guineas. I was on left point. They were up against the boundary fence. As I came up to them, they flew over the fence (of course) instead of toward the "boss" of the horns. I took a crossing shot, the guinea folded up in midair, hit the fence about 8' above the ground, and bounced back stone dead! Most memorable shot of the hunt.

Seriously, concessions are great BUT $1000 per day? and almost no plains game in most concessions due to poaching (at least in Zim .. other places they migrate and there you are talking about $2000 per day...).

As long as the property is of adequate size (depends on species as well as vegetation), fences are a blessing, as they provide the necessary incentive to restore wildlife habitat. (The old saw about private property...)

Those that look down their noses at fenced "ranch" hunting, have either not done it, or they have experienced the canned kind of hunt. For the most part, animals taken on a fenced property are born wild, are in their natural habitat, and can easily evade a hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by .458Aubs:
I have hunted on "non fenced" area's and on our 500 ha farm which we use as a weekend project. on the "non fenced" hunt every animal was located easily and shot quickly = great hunt.

On our 500 ha farm we have been trying to shoot off all impala rams for a black impala breeding project and let me tell you I have been out every weekend for the last three months and the hunting has been hell dificult. This little exersice of taking off 49 rams has turned out to be more challenging that ever thought.

And for those about to say it, we have not used vehicles to shoot from, there just is not a road and the terrain is too bad to traverse.

Each man to his own, but dont fling mud over the fence when reality is an unknown concept to yourself

Do you need any help in your mission? I will be only to willing to offer my services

I will let you know how after the weekend, if we are still on an uphill battle then I'll definately give you a shout.

quote:

Originally posted by .458Aubs:
I have hunted on "non fenced" area's and on our 500 ha farm which we use as a weekend project. on the "non fenced" hunt every animal was located easily and shot quickly = great hunt.

On our 500 ha farm we have been trying to shoot off all impala rams for a black impala breeding project and let me tell you I have been out every weekend for the last three months and the hunting has been hell dificult. This little exersice of taking off 49 rams has turned out to be more challenging that ever thought.

And for those about to say it, we have not used vehicles to shoot from, there just is not a road and the terrain is too bad to traverse.

Each man to his own, but dont fling mud over the fence when reality is an unknown concept to yourself

The statement above is an example of what, in my opinion, If I was hunting the animals myself, (not to put my ethics views on other hunters that may feel it is fine) is exactly the reason I feel hunting fenced areas is not fair chase.
"Shooting Impala for a Black Impala breeding project" My view is that it is trivial how much land a fenced animal has to escape whether it be 2500 acres or 25000 acres. If the animals are transplanted there,(black impala) if they have been trapped and handled by humans, if they are bred, born and released, they are not fair chase animals. The animals are "tainted" in my oppinion if they have been handled by humans.

Large properties that do not import animals or raise animals for release are few and far between, and unless those properties are in the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of acres they more than likely had to bring animals in origionally after the fencing was done.

I myself (again not forcing my views on fellow hunters, as I see no wrong in it) just would not travel 11,000 miles to pay for a hunt on a high fenced area.

Silwane
Your facts are incorrect. Most fenced areas have had resident populations in them that due to fencing and the removal of cattle have prospered. Where animals are introduced they are then left to their own devices once in the fenced area and a hunting quota taken each year dependent on breeding success. Areas where rare or once endangered species are captive bred in controlled enclosures are the only ones where there will be any habituation to man, but that said once numbers return to normal and they are bought to restock hunting areas they exist and breed on their own terms and are as wild as any other animal in the area. Also I hazard to say that these animals are generally of such high value when bough for breeding stock that a farmer wanting to profit from hunting them would need to wait at least 5 years before hunting them and that is only in the case of prolific breeding species too. Most would need 10 years and there would be selective culling of inferior animals within this period. Not trophy hunting.

Please don't confuse a breeding program with a game ranch. Game ranching and breeding are separate, anyone hunting at a breeding centre is then culling and not hunting.

Silwane, what I write below is not directed at you so please dont take offense, I believe you are simply misinformed as a result of reading some of what I will refer to next.

To prospective hunters coming to South Africa, please dont listen to the high horse drivel spilled out by misinformed people. The majority of game ranchers in South Africa are upstanding people who I would call " The Salt of the Earth" . Most often of Afrikaaners and the kind of people that call a spade a spade and would give anyone who told them they were offering canned hunting a "Poes Klap".

While the wide open spaces of Zim and TZ are every hunters dream, for those of you looking for a great value hunt where you can walk until your legs hurt and put in some great stalks on some exquisite animals then come to South Africa with confidence. As hunters we have lost sight of the fact that the tape measure and the destination are not what make a hunt a success but the memories of miles walked under an african sun and the dust washed from a weary body. The real apprecaition for the animal that has died so that others may live and prosper.
The real Africa lies in the hearts and minds of those that have hunted the right way. Not in the size of the concession or the number on the tape.

quote:

The real Africa lies in the hearts and minds of those that have hunted the right way. Not in the size of the concession or the number on the tape.

A wise and profound statement.

Vlam, a specific phrase that you used gave me a good laugh. I've often had the desire, but recently not the opportunity, to dish out one of those!

Silwane, I'm not trying to convert you and if you choose never to hunt in SA I will respect you decision. Most, if not all, hunting areas in SA will have "tainted" animals in your opinion, because animals have been introduced there.

They've been introduced mainly for two reasons. 1) Former ranching areas, where the animals were eradicated in days gone by as they competed with domestic stock, have been restocked with game. 2) Because of the fences new genes have to be introduced to prevent inbreeding.

Most South Africans will respect anyones view - as long as it is reciprocated.

Ultimately it is a matter of personal preference and I respect anyone's decision to hunt a game fenced ranch -- particularly the large multi-thousand acre game fenced ranches which are fair chase in their own right.

Insofar as I am concerned I much prefer hunting open concession areas that are bounded by miles and miles of bloody Africa. For me part of the allure of hunting Africa is an adventure back in time and I just feel that the open areas add to that aspect of the adventure.

Riaan
Miskien as ons vir hulle verduidelik wat n Poes Klap is sal hulle vir ons een van daai klein prentjies vir ons op die board sit wat ons kan gebruik.N behoorlike klap is die eenigste ding wat baaie van hierdie sitkamer jagters kort om hulle bietjie minder stront te lat praat.
Jammer as my Afrikaan no bietjie kak is, ek is al a lang rik weg van die soort mense wat my sal laat behoorlik weer praat.
Mooibly
Ian

quote:

N behoorlike klap is die eenigste ding wat baaie van hierdie sitkamer jagters kort om hulle bietjie minder stront te lat praat.

O jissie, nou gaan die poppe dans! Ja, ons kort 'n poes-klap emoticon!!!

PS, for the others, a 'poes-klap' is a really hard clout...

I am headed to SA for the 6th time in less than a month. I am always interested in the historic events that have occurred in the areas we have hunted. It is a fascinating country.

I am also fascinated by the original ranges of animals we hunt.

South Africa is a great place to hunt especially if you are taking your wife as I am doing this time .... or family.

One thing that mildly aggravates me however is when the PH's speak in their native language while in our presence. I understand that it is their country and its their language but it excludes us who do not understand it and seems rude when we are paying them for a safari.

Do that when paying clients are not present.

Palmer,
Thanks for the compliments and yes, good points...

Palmer,
If it aggravates you when we speak in our native languages while you’re on safari, please tell us – and you might have to do it more than once, because slipping into ones mother tongue is kind of natural.

I can understand that clients might feel excluded from communication when locals go back and forth in different languages. If this is done to purposefully exclude you from the communication it is rude as can be, but this is not always the intention.

Although most South Africans are multi lingual, it’s sometimes still easier to say something in your mother tongue, or in the mother tongue of the person that you’re specifically speaking too.

In general we are not as sensitive as others about being in the presence of people speaking languages we don’t understand – I guess it is because we’re used to it. Even if you speak/understand 4 – 5 languages, you are still bound to be in the presence of SA people speaking in a different language from time to time. After all, SA has 11 “official†languages. So it does not bother us, and sometimes we just “forget†that it might bother others.

I’d suggest that you tell the people up front that you feel uncomfortable when people speak in languages other than English in your presence, and if it happens from time to time ask immediately for a translation.

The best way to ensure that people don’t say “things behind your back†by using a different language is to learn one or two phrases of that language. Use it in passing one day and when they question you about it, just say that you’re starting to pick up the language.

An approach that worked well for me with a specific PH that constantly spoke Afrikaans in the presence of US clients was to install a $50 fine each time he spoke in Afrikaans for no good reason. The client and I gave him “fair†hearings around the campfire at night to determine if he had good enough reason during the day to speak Afrikaans. He quit using Afrikaans just as it started to get really funny.

This is particularly true in the case of Afrikaans. A more descriptive language I have yet to find anywhere on the planet. I am a born and bread Englishman coming straight out of the heart of the Natal Colonial country and I can say that there are many things that just have to be said in Afrikaans to truly describe them.
Its also very true what Riaan has said about switching between languages. I was born English,speak fluent Afrikaans, Xhosa and Zulu. We dont often notice it but it is not uncommon to use all four in a conversation and have at least three people actively partaking in it.Throw in a bit of Fanigalo (mixed miner tongue) and you have a whirlpool of language. Either way, I can guarantee that it is not done intentionally unless perhaps they are talking about an animal you just wounded or a shot you just missed, or perhaps the tape measure protrudijng from your pocket or the bright orange hat you insist on wearing, in all cases however it is best that what is said go unheard as it would compromise yoru safari and make you feel very uneasy.
Jokes aside, just speak up and keep asking what they are saying, and I am sure they will fill yo u in every time.
Even as a born and bread Soutpiel (ask Riaan for translation) I can still say that the Afrikaaner is a far nicer person than your average Englishman.
Good hunting
Ian

On my one and (so far) only trip to South Africa I thought the majority of the animals we hunted on several different properties were pretty wild, maybe not white tail buck wild, but still wary. It was definately not shooting domestic animals out of a pasture.

The owners, their family and employees spoke Afrikaans but still kept us involved in their conversations. I did see an occasion where our PH stopped to consult with a farmer and they switched back and forth between languages several times. As we drove off I asked about it, Gerry thought for a moment and replied " there are things you can say better in Afrikaans and things you can say better in English".

It is a business and there are artificial elements (fencing) but I was impressed by what appeared to be honest, friendly, hardworking people who wanted us to have a good trip and we are planning to return in 09.

Russ:

quote:

Seriously, concessions are great BUT $1000 per day? and almost no plains game in most concessions due to poaching (at least in Zim .. other places they migrate and there you are talking about $2000 per day...).

Who charges $2k per day for plains game?!

Either you want to hunt free ranging wild animals or cultivated/ranched ones. Cost and measurements are just rationalizations. Not a thing wrong with it either, just don't kid yourself as to your motivations. This argument reminds me of the old joke that ends "Well dear, we've already decided what you are, now we're just haggling over the price."

Bob

quote:

One thing that mildly aggravates me however is when the PH's speak in their native language while in our presence.

I got 3 Afrikaans books & some CDs before my recent trip to RSA. It's too bad there aren't some real good Afrikaans or Flemish courses like Pimsleur. In any case, after a couple of weeks of intense Afrikaans exposure, I was starting to pick up enough (understanding wise and not speaking wise) to be a little dangerous. I think if I had 2 or 3 months in RSA I would be able to learn enough Afrikaans to get by communicating at least simple concepts.

As far as the hunting game farms is concerned, I've enjoyed both of my trips to RSA but I think that sort of hunting (i.e., game farms) is more suited to first or second trips. I'm not saying it can't be challenging either.

For my next trip, I want to go some place where there are huge concessions and preferably no fences for a little different African hunting experience.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by silwane:

If the animals are transplanted there,(black impala) if they have been trapped and handled by humans, if they are bred, born and released, they are not fair chase animals. The animals are "tainted" in my oppinion if they have been handled by humans.

QUOTE]
so all the bisons are tainted and not a fair chase hunt

hunting behind fences is nice you just wait for the animal to leave the pub or the day spa and shoot it or just give your order at reception and it gets delivered to your room

how big is an animals home range anyway and if it is fenced or not it forms teritories which it sticks to

HERE IS A CHALLENGE TO ALL FENCE HATERS
come hunt with us on a fenced property if you can shoot 5 kudu bulls in one day on foot ill pay for them if you cant you pay me for 10 seing its so simple and easy to hunt on a fenced property

375
You raise a very good point on the home ranges. These scent barriers are far more effective than most people realise and on an average property of 3000 ha will encompass many territories which will effectively put the fence line out of bounds for many of the central animals.

Silwane:

One day when your grand children come out to africa to hunt open areas and one shoots a black impala ram-remember where that ram might have come from. Wild unfenced areas are being restocked with animals bred in breeding programs, where are the buff and lion going to come from when the shit hits the fan in the kruger. We do not hunt on our farm for any other reason than biltong and strick management hunts. I would not let a client hunt on our farm even unless he was a personal friend and he was after something that he wanted and I could assist for free.

Yes there are PH's/Outfitters who offer fenced hunts but 99% of them offer hunting on farms bigger than 1000 ha, and on a thousand hectares you are still going to have a challenging hunt if done ethically.

Now for the fence haters who sit in a tree stand above a game trail or hunt a non fenced area with a rifle from a blind - whats worse? For those with moral issues and who would like to know what fair hunting is all about, visit http://www.rowlandward.co.za/Guild/Guild.aspx?gmid=3 read through it and if you believe that it is a worth cause and that the principles are something to which you adhere to then put your money where your mouth is and join. you will also see that there is an acknowledgement for using certain methods for certain situations.

Im finished with this thread.

Ian - still waiting for co-ordinates

Dalk het n paar mense n piel wapper nodig...

quote:

Are our fenced areas in RSA that bad?

i sure hope not, im going for my first time in 10 day's.
from my point of view, ethic comes from within. you can be at the largest place in the world and still be unethic in your ways(moose and helicopters anyone?) or be at a pheasant shoot and still be a good sport and letting the young and low one's go.

if you are unsure, dont shoot. simple as that.

best regards

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

Are our fenced areas in RSA that bad?

i sure hope not, im going for my first time in 10 day's.
from my point of view, ethic comes from within. you can be at the largest place in the world and still be unethic in your ways(moose and helicopters anyone?) or be at a pheasant shoot and still be a good sport and letting the young and low one's go.

if you are unsure, dont shoot. simple as that.

best regards

peter

Peterdk,

No they are not bad at all - they are actually fantastic. It’s all about the hunter. If you want to cheat you can, I don't know who you are going with or where you are going but I am confident you will have a great hunt where you will have to work hard for your animals. I would like to think the vast majority of operators in RSA are ethical. All the best for your trip.


Ek is ook baie bly die manne van SA staan almal saam........

ghundwan,

im going with infinito safaris, and i cant wait to get there. i know that im going to have a good time and this will be the first pearl on a long string of trips to africa.

best regards

peter

quote:

Originally posted by .458Aubs:
Silwane:

One day when your grand children come out to africa to hunt open areas and one shoots a black impala ram-remember where that ram might have come from. Wild unfenced areas are being restocked with animals bred in breeding programs, where are the buff and lion going to come from when the shit hits the fan in the kruger. We do not hunt on our farm for any other reason than biltong and strick management hunts. I would not let a client hunt on our farm even unless he was a personal friend and he was after something that he wanted and I could assist for free.

Yes there are PH's/Outfitters who offer fenced hunts but 99% of them offer hunting on farms bigger than 1000 ha, and on a thousand hectares you are still going to have a challenging hunt if done ethically.

Now for the fence haters who sit in a tree stand above a game trail or hunt a non fenced area with a rifle from a blind - whats worse? For those with moral issues and who would like to know what fair hunting is all about, visit http://www.rowlandward.co.za/Guild/Guild.aspx?gmid=3 read through it and if you believe that it is a worth cause and that the principles are something to which you adhere to then put your money where your mouth is and join. you will also see that there is an acknowledgement for using certain methods for certain situations.

Im finished with this thread.

Ian - still waiting for co-ordinates

Dalk het n paar mense n piel wapper nodig...

I do see your point and there has been several other points that I can agree with also. Please do not misunderstand I was not "downing" the entire fenced hunting or the stocking of game, as a whole. I do see its merits and I understand that it can be just as sporting as a concession hunt. I just have some feelings about some of the hunts, that personally I would like to avoid, and again I am not saying it is wrong, just not for me.
I can, however; unequiviocally state that I have complete and total disdain for the hunting of raised lions. I sat this because of the statement "where are the buff and lions going to come from when the shit hits the fan in the Kruger." I do not know if you were suggesting this, if not then my appologies.
As hunters do we not have enough problems with animal rights activists and tree huggers. Look at the preassure put on Botswana. Do we really need to give them more ammunition by raising
Lions in SA only to release them to be killed?

My answer to your question about where are the buff and lion going to come from...... well, they are going to come from other countries where they can be hunted in their natrual environs. Now please do not read this statement with a negative tone as I mean no disrespect. This is just the way I see it.