Attention All East Cape Outfitters and Pro hunters :

With the Cecil the lion Debacle , it is clear that we all need to stand together as one .
I appeal to all of you to come to the EC regional PHASA meeting to be held in Cradock at the golf club . 10 September 10 for 10:30am. Snacks and lunch to be provided .
ALL WELCOME
Bring your opinion. Bring your thoughts and ideas. Bring yourself.
Together we make a better Hunting fraternity and a better PHASA.
Best regards
Dave

Dave - I hope its well attended my friend!

I hate to say this, I really do - but maybe consider a recommendation to stop canned / drugged and moved to shooting block, the day before PH decides the cat will be killed, lion shooting. I think this issue unfortunately is going to continue to be a huge feather in the cap of the anti-hunters. Self-sustaining lions just like all other plains game, etc, is just fine - they can't say much about that. But the canned/drugged thing is going so badly in the eyes of all the non-hunters included that I think its time to consider shutting it down.

Just my opinion - nothing more, and I certainly do not mean to insinuate that I think canned lion shoots have no value. I just think they are really doing hunting in general, more harm than good.

+1 Aaron that's an important issue that needs to be tackled.
Those hunts you mentioned are illegal but still happen.
PHASA has officially approached the predator breeder association to increase release periods and hunting areas that exceed that stipulated by the Dept. Of environmental affairs.

Your on the right track boys! Please keep us posted Dave.

Good on you Dave for publicising this initiative to the wider AR audience.
Will you report back to us all on the outcomes of this meeting ?

Aaron - thank you for mentioning this - as stated before , the shooting of hand reared lions is a morality issue that has been attached to sport hunting and we are going to loose any credibility in any future strategy for hunting in Africa so long as the hunting industry supports canned lion shooting in any form. The attachment of canned lion shooting and the breeding of colour variants will continue to be a thorn in conservation sport hunting and we will not progress so long as we are held back by this association and inclusion in conservation sport hunting . This does not mean that there is no room for a separate box for these two farming activities but it should not fall under conservation or hunting. We are currently at a point where hunting has to take a audit of itself if it is to take its rightfull place in nature conservation in the future.

Hunting has come to the edge of the cliff , it can fall off or look back and acknowledge that it requires some introspection.

Cecil was the straw that almost broke the camels back , but all the signs are there that the cracks in the hunting industry are showing - if we do not globaly take a hard deep look at ourselves our wildlife will suffer the consequences. It is time for all hunting assoc , clubs , orgs to come together with a common goal and to stop the fragmentation of the hunting fraternity. The anti hunters have consolidated and formed coalitions with enormous resources both financialy and infrastructure wise, they are using the modern platforms of the internet to get their misinformation message across to millions of people.

It is great to see action coming from hunting clubs and assoc , it is time for a global hunting coalition .

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Dave - I hope its well attended my friend!

I hate to say this, I really do - but maybe consider a recommendation to stop canned / drugged and moved to shooting block, the day before PH decides the cat will be killed, lion shooting. I think this issue unfortunately is going to continue to be a huge feather in the cap of the anti-hunters. Self-sustaining lions just like all other plains game, etc, is just fine - they can't say much about that. But the canned/drugged thing is going so badly in the eyes of all the non-hunters included that I think its time to consider shutting it down.

Just my opinion - nothing more, and I certainly do not mean to insinuate that I think canned lion shoots have no value. I just think they are really doing hunting in general, more harm than good.

We tip-toe around certain issues in the interest of "not giving an inch" and being "all-inclusive", but in some cases such a stance ends up being our downfall. The continued practice of "canned" lion hunts (as you say - drugged and/or released the day before) will bring an end to legal lion hunting.

No problem with self-sustaining lions on private, fenced land - and I would argue we better endorse this model with a passion because it has protected habitat, game and hunting opportunities across vast expanses of land once devoid of wildlife. To shoot a lion that is staggering to remain upright because of the effects of being drugged - I cannot condone this, and it will ultimately bring us down.

Don't "hate to say this". It needs to be said.

Well done guys !!! this is good to hear.

The time is nigh that the word "Hunting" is no longer associated with all forms of canned pursuit. Let those who treasure it call it what they want, but hunting it is definitely not !!

Regards to all,
Richard Sowry
Kruger National Park

Dave,

Is there a report of the discussions or findings from this meeting?

Was there discussion of Lion hunting as noted above? Or about the proposed USF&W import restrictions? Any news?

Les

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:
Dave,

Is there a report of the discussions or findings from this meeting?

Was there discussion of Lion hunting as noted above? Or about the proposed USF&W import restrictions? Any news?

Les

Les,

First, congratulations to Dave for the posting and the request/advice that hunters should all stand together.

Then, also a good thumbs-up for Aaron for selecting to refer to "lion shooting" of such captive bred and released lion.

I do not wish to in any way hijack Dave's good posting, but I can report that the Free State Professional Hunters Forum is to hold a similar meeting [the 39th such meeting] at 14:00 on 6th November 2015 at the premises of Messrs. Kotoko Taxidermy. THE CEO of PHASA has of late been a regular, and welcome I may say, attendant and participant at these Forum meetings.

The two most important points on the agenda for the meeting on 6th November are the issues of "captive bred and released lion shooting" and the role, place and effects - threat or blessing - of the antelope colour variant craze.

As the current Secretary of the Free State PH Forum I have to compile the minutes of each meeting. The meeting is first and foremost intended for Free State PH's, it is in fact open to all with an interest in professional or in general trophy, and in fact all, hunting. If all with an interest are welcome to an "open" meeting, I can see absolutely no reason why the minutes cannot be made public. I will clear up this point at the forthcoming meeting too.

I echo Dave's plea: "it is clear that we all need to stand together as one . "

I good hunting.

we have game ranching in the US. Is it wrong to kill a deer and have its horns mounted??? Not here. is it hunting? Hell no, but neither is it illegal. I train dogs with Mallard ducks I buy from those that raise them. I also use farm raised quail and pheasant to train with also. Illegal Hell no. What is wrong with it? There are many farm raised Elk in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona. I know some wealthy folks that get their trophies that way. Why is it suddenly a-moral just because it is in Africa. Does a game farmer/rancher in Africa have any less right to his sustainable harvest than a cattle rancher? Just my casual, insightful manner at work on a hot day in Oklahoma!

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
we have game ranching in the US. Is it wrong to kill a deer and have its horns mounted??? Not here. is it hunting? Hell no, but neither is it illegal. I train dogs with Mallard ducks I buy from those that raise them. I also use farm raised quail and pheasant to train with also. Illegal Hell no. What is wrong with it? There are many farm raised Elk in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona. I know some wealthy folks that get their trophies that way. Why is it suddenly a-moral just because it is in Africa. Does a game farmer/rancher in Africa have any less right to his sustainable harvest than a cattle rancher? Just my casual, insightful manner at work on a hot day in Oklahoma!

But you are forgetting one simple point!

Lions are little cuddly pussies!

I am going to stick my neck out again, and say that if it was not for TROPHY seekers, there will not be drugged and moved lions the day before they are shot!

The individuals who participate in this are exactly the same lot who have their names with literally dozens of record books entries in SCI book!

They are the same individuals, supported by many so called professional hunters from South Africa who specialize in this very sick sport.

They are the ones who transport captured animals - not just lions - using planes and converted fuel trucks.

So our famous hunter can fly over and shoot his high scoring trophy to brag about.

These individuals - both clients and those assisting them in the industry are the ones supporting this.

All one has to do is look at certain websites, with an incredible list of "trophies" high up in the SCI record book.

Just look at those individuals in those photos - and their suppliers!

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
There are many farm raised Elk in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona.

It is not my intention to derail this topic.

I just need to point out the fact that there is no high fenced hunting in Arizona.

Carry on.

.

Thank you, Tom. I was ready to send a similar post.

Bill Quimby

All well and good, but Cecil wasn't a canned lion ....

And he's garnered way more public attention than the ones behind the fences.

A bit ironic that without the captive bred lions, numbers are at potentially, a historic low. But with captive bred lions, the numbers are much higher.

I worry we're focusing more on waging a PR battle, and less on the reality of doing all things to maximize the species. Morality judgments on captive bred lion hunting are remarkably similar to morality judgments on all sport hunting.

Hope the meeting goes good Dave, would love to hear how it went. Hopefully we can come up with a good solution as some day I really want to hunt a Lion.

The issue of canned lion killing ( note it is not a form of hunting as defined by fair chase ) is going to explode again soon as the movie "Blood Lions" is about to be widely released across media platforms. The conservation hunting community will need to be very vigilant to ensure they respond quickly to the media who will associate canned lion killing with hunters. Canned Lion shooting does not form part of our ethical or moral conservation wildlife heritage. Across the globe we are holding meetings and workshops in preparation to respond to this new onslaught but hunters themselves will need to lead this reaction at every possibility.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
we have game ranching in the US. Is it wrong to kill a deer and have its horns mounted??? Not here. is it hunting? Hell no, but neither is it illegal. I train dogs with Mallard ducks I buy from those that raise them. I also use farm raised quail and pheasant to train with also. Illegal Hell no. What is wrong with it? There are many farm raised Elk in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona. I know some wealthy folks that get their trophies that way. Why is it suddenly a-moral just because it is in Africa. Does a game farmer/rancher in Africa have any less right to his sustainable harvest than a cattle rancher? Just my casual, insightful manner at work on a hot day in Oklahoma!

But you are forgetting one simple point!

Lions are little cuddly pussies!

I am going to stick my neck out again, and say that if it was not for TROPHY seekers, there will not be drugged and moved lions the day before they are shot!

The individuals who participate in this are exactly the same lot who have their names with literally dozens of record books entries in SCI book!

They are the same individuals, supported by many so called professional hunters from South Africa who specialize in this very sick sport.

They are the ones who transport captured animals - not just lions - using planes and converted fuel trucks.

So our famous hunter can fly over and shoot his high scoring trophy to brag about.

These individuals - both clients and those assisting them in the industry are the ones supporting this.

All one has to do is look at certain websites, with an incredible list of "trophies" high up in the SCI record book.

Just look at those individuals in those photos - and their suppliers!

To add a little more to this....

Even though it may not illegal to hunt captive reared/drugged lions it indeed leaves hunting open to criticism that can't be defended to the non hunting public. Similar things have happened in the US where animals were let loose in small fenced enclosure and a "famous" hunter shoots it to later brag about or worse use as footage for his TV show. Some of you in the U.S. may remember Jimmy Houston's little escapade years back. Either way when the public gets ahold of this we hunters are powerless to defend ourselves or our sport if we continue to turn a blind eye to it.

As a former director of one of my states hunting organizations I know from past experience the only way to prevent a similar thing from happening is to clean house from within. We must set a standard and and live by it. It isn't pretty and there will be at least in the short term some bad feelings and lost friendships but it's better then getting to the point where the public forces a decision. The average non hunter really has no viewpoint for or against hunting unless things like Cecil, regardless of what really happened, forces them to an opinion. Like it or not our sport will live or die based on how the general public thinks about what we all so very much
enjoy doing.

Fellas, just in case you were wondering regarding this matter , the meeting regarding the Lions will be held end of October. (On the 27th of October, I believe.)

I am currently working on putting together packages on 3 Lion hunt inquiries for 2016. I have been informed that PHASA is looking at increasing the time between the release and the actual hunt. I have also been told that this will increase the price of the Lion hunts, as the Lions will obviously eat more during this time.
The area that we currently use, the Lions can be in the area any time from 30 days to 2 years. This looks like it will be increased.

I will be happy to post the results from the meeting. Thanks for the positive attitudes and responses on this thread.

Take Care,
Marius Goosen

Marius,

Are you taking deposits on 2016 Lion hunts? in South Africa?

Are these deposits refundable if the USF&W stops issuing import permits as indicated by their proposed rule?

Has there been any discussion of this possibility?

Les

PS: As the SAPA Standards only call for a minimum 7 days release time prior to a hunt, is it possible to determine the actual release time to be longer than that?

Hi Les,
Thanks for the comments. If we stopped operating every time there was a rumor or media report, we would go out of business. (See Ebola) All we can do, is carry on and cross the bridge when we get there. The proposed Lion ban, has been around for little while now.
I think it would be detrimental to any outfits business, should he not build in a deposit refund clause, for any current Lion hunts, with regards to USF&W views on South African Lions.
So, to answer your question, yes, it will be fully refundable.

Regarding your question on whether or not it is possible to determine how long a Lion has been out for, probably not. I guess this is the biggest concern. Very few outfits actually own their own Lions, instead making use of concessions who supply the demand. Unfortunately, I think it will be a case of trusting your outfitter to point out any obvious signs, should he feel there is something fishy. Most outfitters will know the concession, and their policies. The outfitter WILL know what is going on, unless its a case of first time using the place.
The internet is a small place, and if the outfitter knows what's good for him, he will make sure that he looks after his hunter, and that everything get's done according to the law and within the acceptable practice of hunting South African Lions.

Marius

Thanks for your response. It seems that we will be required to assume the status quo will continue, and carry on as previously. I suppose we will have some notice before the rules apply and some time before USF&W decides which country's will be allowed to export to the US. If anyone.

As for the pre hunt release times, I hope you are correct.

Les

quote:

I suppose we will have some notice before the rules apply and some time before USF&W decides which country's will be allowed to export to the US. If anyone.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one! No notice was given on the Zim Ivory ban!

.