Are there any legit RSA Lion hunts or are they all "canned" hunts.

Oh boy.....here we go...
whats it been, a month?

I hope you get some straight answers from a very emotive topic full or lots of contradicting evidence!

Yes, there are hunts for wild, free ranging lions (I belive there are still some in the PVT lands bordering Kruger?), but less so than some countries north of RSA.

let the games begin!

I did a search and came up with this link.

http://www.africanskyhunting.co.za/trophies/lion-hunting.html

Sorry if this has been discussed recently...dont mean to open a can of worms,just looking for answers. Thanks

Yes. There are most definitely some lion hunts that are not the canned hunts. Some of these take place in the parks. For example the Pilanesburg National Park near SunCity.

FYI, all of the "canned" hunts are not the same. Some have lions roaming in large high fenced areas (in excess of 10,000 acres) that hunt for themselves and been doing so for months. They are not drugged or starved and just turned loose.

safari club international does not accept lions killed in south africa.

when sci won't accept an animal,u know somethings wrong.their mantra is "we take anything,anyhow,anywhere any..." that should tell u something.

Yes there are.
I have an Outfitter in the RSA that hunts all the big 5 that are 100% free ranging. These are the Timbavati, Klaserie and Umbabat areas. These areas form the APNR(Associations of Private Nature Reserves). These areas cover 300,000 acres. Within the acreage there are no domesticated animals, no internal fences or boundary fences. Yes you can hunt Lion there that are free ranging. The hunts in this area are very limited. This is the wildest hunting in South Africa.

You'll get lots of opinions on this - but mine is that there are absolutely no truly wild Lions anywhere in SA.......at best, they're considerably more habituated to vehicles and people than Lions found in places like the Selous Reserve Tanzania and many other (wilder)African countries.......

That isn't to say that I think all SA Lion hunts are canned - just not as wild as in some other places.

I hope Cunningham won't be upset with me when I say that I guarantee that there are absolutely no free ranging Lions, Buffalo, Elephant or Rhino anywhere in SA. SA law states that these species may only be kept on land that not only is fenced but is fenced to a very high atandard.

What shakari said makes sense. Otherwise, why was it news a few weeks ago when some of them (Lions) "got out" and were "terrorizing the countryside"? Seems like it would be just another day where lions were roaming around free.

kinda like coyotes terrorizing New Yorkers?

geese, RSA is not a neighborhood community. If a grizzly bear got out of a contained area and was a problem it would be in the news, but Grizzly bears roaming the rocky mountains are of no concern to the news.

Same with Mountian lions, wolves and even black bears in the USA. Where the Lions escaped they are not free roaming, where they live free it's no issue. Lions roam in and out of the Kruger every day. landowners surrounding the park are always seeing and hearing them, it's not news. We have hunted those lions on several occasions when they have become a problem. They are absolutely free roaming, yet as Shikari states they may not be considered to the same level of status that a lion in other parts of Africa which might never see a human or vehicle are living.

In either case a lion is nothing to fool with high status or not!

Pigslayer: You're incorrect. SCI does accept lions for its records from South Africa. They are categorized with Namibian lions in the record books. Check it out on the SCI website, or in their publications. As far as the wild lion issue and South Africa goes, this issue is like gun control. No one on AR is ever going to agree on it, ever. We all have are our experiences that ultimately dictate our opinions. As far as I'm concerned I'm in JJHACK'S and Cunningham's camp on this one. Sorry Shakari and the rest of you on that side of the "fence"; no offense intended to you all, just my opinion based on my own hunting experiences.

kayaker and JJHACK - Fair enough.

Yes, whats constitutes 'free ranging'???

An animal thats feeds itself and can maintain a typical home range and/or territory that is typical of that species?
Some are bound by a barrier such as a fence eg most lions in RSA, regardless of the area (100,000 acres or 1000 acres) some are free ranging but bound by barriers like urbanisation or industry eg Albertas woodland caribou threatened by logging and oil/gas. They are not fenced, and are truly 'free ranging' but still severely limited as to where they can go. my point is not to start comparative contest, but to illsutate two side of the free ranging coin...a multifacted argument in fact.

The definition needs clarification!

Also, some one on the other forum said there is no hunting outside the fence in RSA????? What?
A lot of my hunting for Impala, reedbuck, blesbuck and springbuck has been on land that is not game fenced, but in fact, regular agric type land with low cattle/sheep fences, just like a lot of deer hunting is.

I aggree, there are more free ranging lions in Zim, TZ etc no doubt aboyt that, but many seem to imply that all RSA lions are kep in zoo like conditions which is simply nonsense of the poorly informed internet experts IMHO.

Cheers

I made a point of saying that not all SA Lions are canned.

As JJ says a SA Lion can stuff you up as quickly and easily as a Lion anywhere else and indeed it could be be argued that many SA Lions are in fact more aggressive than in some other parts of Africa. For example, KNP Lions are generally considered to be (at least occasional)maneaters because so many illegals come through the park.(no-one knows how many don't make it)...... BUT my point is that (IMO) ALL SA Lions are considerably more habituated to humans and vehicles than would be found in places such as the Selous and the Zambezi Valley. Also that there is no such thing as a free ranging Lion, Elephant, Rhino or Buffalo such as would be found in any true wilderness area.......... I should also add that a SA Dangerous Game hunt is a very different experience to one in a TWA. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
You'll get lots of opinions on this - but mine is that there are absolutely no truly wild Lions anywhere in SA.......at best, they're considerably more habituated to vehicles and people than Lions found in places like the Selous Reserve Tanzania and many other (wilder)African countries....(...)

True ... sad, but true

Here is a question. How do you handle it when someone you know comes back from a lion hunt in RSA and when they tell people, it is not brought up that it was high fenced so people are left with the opinion that they were in the "Wilds" of africa and not on a guarenteed hunt?

Same way you would if they hunted a general bag plains game hunt near PE

Thanks for your answers guys

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Pigslayer: You're incorrect. SCI does accept lions for its records from South Africa. They are categorized with Namibian lions in the record books. Check it out on the SCI website, or in their publications. As far as the wild lion issue and South Africa goes, this issue is like gun control. No one on AR is ever going to agree on it, ever. We all have are our experiences that ultimately dictate our opinions. As far as I'm concerned I'm in JJHACK'S and Cunningham's camp on this one. Sorry Shakari and the rest of you on that side of the "fence"; no offense intended to you all, just my opinion based on my own hunting experiences.

use enough gun,
i will check it out using your source and info.! all i've ever read about it or in conversation has been sci doesn't take s.a. lions. when all the hoopla started with the canned hunts supposedly they succombed to the pressure,due to their "ethics".

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Pigslayer: You're incorrect. SCI does accept lions for its records from South Africa. They are categorized with Namibian lions in the record books. Check it out on the SCI website, or in their publications. As far as the wild lion issue and South Africa goes, this issue is like gun control. No one on AR is ever going to agree on it, ever. We all have are our experiences that ultimately dictate our opinions. As far as I'm concerned I'm in JJHACK'S and Cunningham's camp on this one. Sorry Shakari and the rest of you on that side of the "fence"; no offense intended to you all, just my opinion based on my own hunting experiences.

well "use enough gun" i looked over the sci website and didn't find anything supporting your claims to sci recognizing canned lion hunts in south africa.

can u please supply a link or are u a south african outfitter

honesty is the best policy !

quote:

Originally posted by Cunningham:
Yes there are.
I have an Outfitter in the RSA that hunts all the big 5 that are 100% free ranging. These are the Timbavati, Klaserie and Umbabat areas. These areas form the APNR(Associations of Private Nature Reserves). These areas cover 300,000 acres. Within the acreage there are no domesticated animals, no internal fences or boundary fences. Yes you can hunt Lion there that are free ranging. The hunts in this area are very limited. This is the wildest hunting in South Africa.

pigslayer

You are a little off base calling BS on Cunningham. The areas that Cunningham described are fenced basically on the western boundary that divides them from the rest of RSA but they have an open border with Kruger and the animals do move freely between the park and the reserves which are huge. I have a hard time seeing how the hunting there is much different than hunting park boundaries all over the rest of Africa which is common prctice.

Garry Kelly just e-mailed me that his last client this March took a monster lion and a 45" buffalo in the Timbavati. In both cases these animals were taken after long days of tracking. What part of this is canned or not fair chase alludes me.

Mark

quote:

well "use enough gun" i looked over the sci website and didn't find anything supporting your claims to sci recognizing canned lion hunts in south africa.

Did you see anything condemning lion hunting in South Africa or specifically excluding them from the record books?

How many times have YOU hunted in South Africa, my friend?

Pigslayer: If you are an SCI member, log on and go to Trophy Records. Then go to Record Book and Top Ten Minimums, and you will CLEARLY see that there are TWO categories for African lion, one that is for African lion period, and the other for South African and Namibian lion. Better yet, CALL SCI AND ASK THEM IF YOU CANNOT LOG ON. Or, GET A COPY of the SCI records book for Africa as I suggested earlier. If you are not an SCI member then the phone call or the book purchase might be your only option. For anyone else who is an SCI member, maybe you could assist Pigslayer with my verification. No, I am not a South African Outfitter, but a long time and experienced African hunter. Finally, we would all appreciate your acknowledgement on this thread of the correct information, once you have done as I have TWICE suggested, so that any others are not mislead or misinformed as well.

I hunted plains game a few years back in Pilanesburg Park. While it is a fenced area, the boundaries are vast and the hunting area differs from the tourist area. I saw some magnificent lion while there and I was told they were hunted on a very limited basis. Your hunt is with your PH and a Ranger who specializes in the lions of the park. You are hunting for a specific lion that has been determined should be removed from the population. From then on it is like any other lion hunt with baiting and hoping the right one comes along. You are hunting a lion that "works for a living" and is tough and wary as any other lions you might find. If this is canned, I guess I don't understand the criteria for a canned hunt. This doesn't seem much different than PHs elsewhere who scout for lions and log their general territories on their GPS for future reference.
There are many unscrupulous canned hunts no doubt. I've seen the catalog that has pictures of gorgeous unscarred lions with their price tag. That to me is canned.
What about the Rhinos of South Africa? As far as I know, SCI recognizes them yet you will never find one to hunt on non fenced land. It doesn't make sense why the lions are categorized in SA as all being canned when that is not totally true. Certainly no worse than the Rhinos.
I think it is up to the individual to make their own judgement as to the ethics of the hunt they book and be a peace with the decision.
I believe if man was not so competitive and needed record books for bragging rights we would be far better off. I have had PHs tell me of clients who had their hunter shoot their entire bag then go home and enter the animals in SCI. I really believe that there are wild lion hunts in SA and I would do one in a heartbeat. The fact that it would not be "recognized" by SCI should have no importance. If it does, I think you are hunting for the wrong reasons.
Just my 2 cents worth!!

LJS: Unfortunately, this issue is really NOT about the record books in general or about the SCI Trophy Record Books. The SCI Record Books UNDISPUTEDLY contain entries for general African lion and for Namibian and South African lion. The REAL issue here concerns the undeviating opinions of some as to whether hunting any lion in South Africa is "canned". Even with UNDISPUTED PROOF that SCI accepts South African lion in its record books, the argument over hunting any lion in South Africa will continue to rage on. To those who have ACTUALLY HUNTED free ranging lion in South Africa on the border with Kruger and in areas where the fences between the Park and private game reserves have been taken down or removed, and where lions come and go as they please, day and night, I say, in my opinion and in the opinion of many, many others, that you hunted wild African lion. No one else will change your mind or mine. To those of you who INSIST on or beg to differ, I say to all of you: Hunt to your heart's content for lion in Botswana, Namibia, Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, Zimbabwe or anywhere else in Africa you desire. That is YOUR choice and no one gives a damn. At the end of the day, like LJS stated, Only the hunter can be at peace with himself/herself regarding their hunting choices. No one else's opinions make one bit of difference or really matter.

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:
Yes, whats constitutes 'free ranging'???

An animal thats feeds itself and can maintain a typical home range and/or territory that is typical of that species?
Some are bound by a barrier such as a fence eg most lions in RSA, regardless of the area (100,000 acres or 1000 acres) some are free ranging but bound by barriers like urbanisation or industry eg Albertas woodland caribou threatened by logging and oil/gas. They are not fenced, and are truly 'free ranging' but still severely limited as to where they can go. my point is not to start comparative contest, but to illsutate two side of the free ranging coin...a multifacted argument in fact.

The definition needs clarification!

Also, some one on the other forum said there is no hunting outside the fence in RSA????? What?
A lot of my hunting for Impala, reedbuck, blesbuck and springbuck has been on land that is not game fenced, but in fact, regular agric type land with low cattle/sheep fences, just like a lot of deer hunting is.

I aggree, there are more free ranging lions in Zim, TZ etc no doubt aboyt that, but many seem to imply that all RSA lions are kep in zoo like conditions which is simply nonsense of the poorly informed internet experts IMHO.

Cheers

I think the part problem is that in RSA, it is legal to call a lion hunt "free range" if it has been released for all of 4 days. No way that lion is anywhere near habituated and not just confused. Once again, the few negative operators cast all operators in a bad light.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

well "use enough gun" i looked over the sci website and didn't find anything supporting your claims to sci recognizing canned lion hunts in south africa.

Did you see anything condemning lion hunting in South Africa or specifically excluding them from the record books?

How many times have YOU hunted in South Africa, my friend?

i've hunted south africa several times and have been there a few more times to sight see.

i've had an outfitter i hunted with there try to sell me a canned hunt.he explained how they carefully look around for nice lions for their clients and a week or 2 before their arrival they let them go in a 5,000 acre pen for the hunt.canned !

i don't know if u attend sport shows and such,but if should run into a certain "colonel" ask him about his s.a. lion hunt where he got screwed out of 20 grand.he was assured by his outfitter many times and long before his arrival he was going to be hunting "wild" lions.yeah right-guess what he got!i listened to his tale of woe at a sport shop , while others were also sharing similar experiences.

while doing eco-tours to the preserves and breeding projects i have asked specifically what happens to all these lions they raise when they get big.number 1 answer, sold for "sports" to come and shoot.even at mokwalo-white lion breeding project what can't be sold for breeding stock will be shot.at a preserve outside of capetown the owner was proud of the fact that he saved the lions he had from overseas sportsman and sure gave everybody on the tour a lesson on s.a.s' canned lion hunts.

it makes a guy sick to be playing with cubs and watch kids get their photos taken with them knowing that as soon as they are "trophy" size they will be sold to a sport as a "wild" trophy.

raising antelope like cattle,auctioning them off and stocking them on ranches for hunting is one thing , but utilizing pets and zoo animals like that is just plain wrong.

bwanamrm, what is YOUR experience in s.a.? what do you see or not see?

i see your location is texas.look at those "ranches" selling sports "texas dall rams" i'm not a farmer but i did take agriculture in school and these wild texas dall rams sure look like rambouillet or merino sheep don't they.do u see anything wrong with that picture? i must admit it is a fantastic way to "fleece" city boys.

it's just another blackeye on hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Pigslayer: If you are an SCI member, log on and go to Trophy Records. Then go to Record Book and Top Ten Minimums, and you will CLEARLY see that there are TWO categories for African lion, one that is for African lion period, and the other for South African and Namibian lion. Better yet, CALL SCI AND ASK THEM IF YOU CANNOT LOG ON. Or, GET A COPY of the SCI records book for Africa as I suggested earlier. If you are not an SCI member then the phone call or the book purchase might be your only option. For anyone else who is an SCI member, maybe you could assist Pigslayer with my verification. No, I am not a South African Outfitter, but a long time and experienced African hunter. Finally, we would all appreciate your acknowledgement on this thread of the correct information, once you have done as I have TWICE suggested, so that any others are not mislead or misinformed as well.

use enough gun,
please accept my apology, i was quite pissed this morning when i got to thinking of this canned issue.

i must concede you are correct about sci accepting these animals,i was confusing it with rowland ward which does not accept them.personnally i could care less about the sci ledger,i don't support their ethics.

you can defend hunting when an "anti" tries to lump poachers with hunters,but a canned hunt is indefensable and i have no sympathy for anyone engaged in this activity.i enjoy my hunting and this kind of baloney threatens "my" sport.

Several years ago during a R.O.N. in Johannesburg I had occasion to talk to a young P.H. who had just gotten his license within the past year. I'm not even sure that it was for DG, but that day he was a happy, happy fellow.

It seems that he had guided (on someone else's ranch) a wealthy fellow on the client's first hunt for anything, Africa or elsewhere. The hunter took 10 or 12 species.

When the hunter was settling up he mentioned to the P.H. that he had a couple of days left before he had to be back in the states and wondered if he could get a lion and a rhino now that he was a safari veteran. (The client must have had a fat wallet).

The PH immediately got on the phone and "found" the animals and, of course, made his deal with the "owners" of the game (and a DG PH if required??).

Sure enough, in the few days the client extended his stay and after the PH hand-carried the permit stuff through the halls of wherever, the hunter spent $80k in trophy fees (and the PH got a large share thereof). I'm sure the client believes that he really went on a Safari and so displays his DG trophies.

In any event, that fledgling PH made a year's salary in 48 hours.

I really think that laziness or macho is not always the motivator for canned hunts. Ignorance and inexperience are quite often the reason.

Just look at the way some folks dress for the SAA Sardine can. You'd think they were Jungle Jim. No one would do that if they really knew what they looked like... and likewise, not many folks would hunt canned animals if they had to face peers who knew better.

All that said.. I've had a great time hunting PG in RSA in a 14K hectare, fenced ranch... and have been disgusted when driven around a 500 acre compound to "hunt" a zebra. I really don't know how one defines "fair chase", but I know it when I see it.

Instead of damning folks who go on canned hunts, be they in a little compound or a blatent release and kill, maybe we ought to educate them? Who knows... There's lots of money in canned hunts, but lessening the demand would solve some of that... Probably just a pipe dream, though.

BTW, if Cunningham's description is accurate (and I've found him to be a straight shooter), particularly with Mark's ditto, I'd think about anything on the Kruger border would be pretty kosher.

quote:

Originally posted by pigslayer: sci ledger,i don't support their ethics.

SCI and ethics???? What are these? First time I've seen those two words in a sentence together.

Pigslayer: Apology accepted. Judge G.:Kosher it is.

Pigslayer,
My experience is similar to Use Enough Gun's. We both have hunted with the same PH and I find him moral, ethical and an excellent hunter. There are bad apples in Texas and bad apples in South Africa...hell for that matter you name the state and or country and there are unscrupulos outfitters or guides there! However, to paint all lion hunts in the RSA as canned is wrong!

On four trips to the RSA, three hunts were on ranches that were totally low fenced (Molteno, Kimberly and the KZN), one was open to Kruger but high fenced on three sides and one was on a 60,000 acre high fenced ranch called Atherton west of Thabazimbi! And on that ranch I felt the animals had more than a fair chance at eluding our party.

You're welcome to your opinions and I to mine that is what these forums and America is all about BUT there are many hardworking, honest PH's in South Africa and elsewhere who work there a$$es off to provide good, fair chase hunts during the safari season. They fight their government who wants to take their land away to give to the locals, the antis who want all hunting done away with and now, many hunters who lump them into one mass category which is the unethical hunter out to make a quick buck off of some rich fat cats from America who have more money than morals! The majority of the PH's in the RSA deserve better.

And yes I am from Texas and not a DAMN bit ashamed of it! Why don't you share a little bit more about yourself with me...who did you hunt with in South Africa...who offered you a "canned" lion? It would be good info for this forum to have.