How do you think this combo would do . A .458 RUM to match 450 Dakota ballistics in a 10 pound Model 700 safari rifle of good quality wood that would be around the same price of a Ruger M77 Magnum rifle.

And available left handed. I'm in.

H. C.

Hmmmmm....... I think I'd rather have the new CZ 550 Safari Classic in .450 Rigby (rimless). MSRP: $1750.00



-Bob F.

Bob: I went to the CZ website and I can't find said rifle nor the one that's supposed to be available in 404 Jeffrey. jorge

I'd never pay for that combination. The cartridge would be fine, but I don't care to hunt with a Model 700 ever again, especially for dangerous game.

AD

Tanoose,

The combination won't do worth a shit; I know of three factory operations who declined to market .450"s on the .404 Jeff case. You don't have enough case for positive headspace control given the limits of factory rifles and ammo. A careful handloader could make the ammo for a wildcat though (compare with the .460 G&A).

Also you would have to flog those bullets with higher pressure to equal the ballistics from the larger-cased Dakota.

jim

The .450 Dakota uses an improved .416 Rigby case not a 404 Jeff like the rest of there line of cartridges.Why wouldn't Remington do the same ?

The 700 action is not big enough for 416 Rigby based cartridges.

Could they improve off the .416 Remington?

Hello,
I assume there is a reason for having a cartridge other than the 416 Remington for large dangerous game, but I can not think of one. That cartridge is quite amazing when you analyze the capabilities with bullets available and am sure it will down about anything that walks on this earth if the shooter has skill in shot placement. Take a look at the ballistics with the lighter bullets and it is a very flat shooting cartridge for a 40+ bullet!! Would have to think that the 416 Remington would be the "modern" version of the vintage 375HH we all love so much, but with a hell of a lot more punch at all distances.
Some said that they would not hunt with a Remington,and again, I can not imagine why in any conditions possibly found while sport hunting??
Our military units are depending on Remington Model 700 rifles with some slight modifications for their lives as we speak and trust me, no game in Africa will shoot back unless it is the Islamic terrorist types or the remaining Cubans/communists in Angola from years ago. Remingtons work on those two "critters" very well thank you. Don't buy into all that hype about the Rem 700's not able to do the job, just ain't so, they work and work very well. Have and would again stake my life on one of them without hesitation.
Favor Center!!
dsiteman

dsiteman

In 375 and 416, Remington's African Big Game Rifle would be the most reliable out there as it has a vertical stack centre line feed. In 375 Sauer is same, I don't know if they have 416 Remington.

Mike

desiteman,
I doubt that a rifle meeting sniper demands has anything to do with a DGR...a totally different set of circumstances..

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Bob: I went to the CZ website and I can't find said rifle nor the one that's supposed to be available in 404 Jeffrey. jorge

Jorge,

You're correct; they're not shown on the web site yet. However, they are shown in their 2005 catalog. The 2005 catalog is available as a file download from the CZ site. The file is in Adobe Acrobat (pdf file) format. The new Safari Classics are listed.

The catalogs can be found here:
CZ-USA 2005 Catalogs

-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
How do you think this combo would do . A .458 RUM to match 450 Dakota ballistics in a 10 pound Model 700 safari rifle of good quality wood that would be around the same price of a Ruger M77 Magnum rifle.

It would be inferior to an off the shelf Ruger 77 in 458 Lott, so I do not know why you would bother.

Not if he converted the Rem 700 ABG in 375 Ultra as he would have an in line centre feed plus the slight advantage of a slighly bigger chamber diameter in relation to the 458 bullet.

Plus he could achieve 458 Lott ballistics with lower pressures.

Mike

Mike,

It would still be an inferior Remington product.

Well I don't like Remingtons. Just the sight of the ground off rivot for the extractor makes me break out in hives.

But the facts are the ABG Rifle would get 458 Lott type rounds, especially with flat nose bullets, into the chamber far more reliably than the Ruger and doublly so since the chamber diameter is a bit bigger for the 458 RUM.

Mike

Instead of a .458 RUM -how about .404 Magnum Schüler?

A .416 Rigby case necked up and shortened to take the .404 bullet and short enough for a standard length Mauser action!

The caliber is about 80 years old now and used by friends of mine in RSA in a original Schüler rifle

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
Instead of a .458 RUM -how about .404 Magnum Schüler?

A .416 Rigby case necked up and shortened to take the .404 bullet and short enough for a standard length Mauser action!

The caliber is about 80 years old now and used by friends of mine in RSA in a original Schüler rifle

Everything old is new again! Dakota is maybe coming out with a .423 Lapua, which would be a lot like the .404 Schuler.

Personally there is no way I would hunt DG with a Remington 700 with that puny little extracter. Partcularly on a long case like the 416 Rem mag etc.

Maybe with a Sako extracter fitted.......

MLG,

That punt extractor takes a bigger bit of the case than you think. Yo stick a case in the bolt head and try and bend it out.

A problem they do have is on the rare occassion the rivoted extractor breaks around the whole where the rivot goes throug. With the non rivoted ones and an over load that swells the case head they will remain stationary and the bolt rotates around the extractor.

But with an with any cartidge that has a small diameter case in relation to the bore size, such as 458 Lott, 416 Remington and using very blunt bullets I would back an in line centre feed Remington to cycle more cartridges before trouble struck than ANY staggered feed action.

The Sako extractor is nicer because some individual Rems won't easily slip over the case rim as they hang a bit low an a new Rem extractor does not fix that because it caused by the shape of the counterbore. The Sako extractor also allows the case head to be seated deeper.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by HunterJim:
Tanoose,

The combination won't do worth a shit; I know of three factory operations who declined to market .450"s on the .404 Jeff case. You don't have enough case for positive headspace control given the limits of factory rifles and ammo. A careful handloader could make the ammo for a wildcat though (compare with the .460 G&A).

Also you would have to flog those bullets with higher pressure to equal the ballistics from the larger-cased Dakota.

jim

Jim,

There is plenty of shoulder for a the case to headspace on, as can be seen on these two cartridges my friend Roy Vincent made up on the 404 case.

Saeed,

But the issue of a factory chambering is different due to tolerances on factory rifle and factory ammo.

Then to compound the problem, with 500 grain bullets if the bolt was close very rapidly the momentum of the loaded round could more easily increase headspace and introduce possible ignition problems.

Mike

This does not make sense at all.

There is a definite shoulder on these cases - one can see it from miles away!

I have seen rifles refused to chamber a round because of minute differences in the sized case, so this argument from those so called gun experts does not hold water.

I just wish they would give us the real reason for not chambering a round as this, and not make excuses that make no sense at all.

But Saeed those cases you are illustrating have been fireformed and then perhaps sized which would be different to die forming a case from cyclinder.

Mike

I would like to see someone do either a .416, .423, or a .425, on the RUM case. To me if it was the .423 it would be like a "modern" .404 or an "improved" .404. I think that the case would be an improvement over the .375 case because case capacity would not be as big a problem(like with Barnes 400 grain X bullets). All it would take is for one the premium bullet makers to make and promote a .425 or .423 bullet.

Mufasa,
Dakota makes their .404 Dakota on a shortened .404 Jeffery.
It is not setting the world on fire, and it has no rebated rim like the RUM line (BAD).

The .45 Lapua would allow factory tolerance ammo, but apparently the .45?.404 does not.

The .404 Dakota is a much shorter case than either the .416 Dakota or the .375 Ultra Mag case. If we are talking case capacity I would like to see a larger case for .416, .425, or .423 bullets and I think the Rum or the Dakota .416 case is a good place to start.

But Dakota is talking about a .423 Lapua, which I like. Just a gunnutt thing.

There is not enough difference between the .404 Jeffery and the .416 Dakota or even a .423/.416 Dakota to even sneeze at.

Actually the .423 Dakota/Lapua would require a Rigby sized box and long seated bullets to COL 3.75" to give it a case capacity advantage over the .423/.416 Dakotaor RUM.

But the .338 Lapua Magnum brass is the best and sexiest around, for necking up, and hopefully Dakota will get the same Lapua brass properly headstamped and necked up with no other changes.

I have a .45 Lapua and am working on a .375 Lapua. The .423 Lapua would be excellent.

or maybe we could make the case a bit different shape, put a rim on it seat a 500 gr 475 bullet, put into a double and really have some, well something like maybe a 470

Saeed,

Those Roy Vincent cases look like they have been fire-formed. I said that a careful handloader could build a .450" Ultramag that would operate. The problem occurs with the tolerances found in new factory brass, combined with the tolerances in the chambers of factory rifles. The problem expresses itself in a failure to fire because of too much headspace.

Tanoose,

The .450 Dakota design is actually based on the A-Square Excalibur case, which is close to a Rigby in size. Dakota has been through several sources of brass, and I just do not know what they are using now.

jim

Saeed,

If the 358 Winchester has no headspace problems, I see no reason why the 450 Vincent would since the 450 V has more of a shoulder than the 358 W.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
But Dakota is talking about a .423 Lapua, which I like. Just a gunnutt thing.

There is not enough difference between the .404 Jeffery and the .416 Dakota or even a .423/.416 Dakota to even sneeze at.

Actually the .423 Dakota/Lapua would require a Rigby sized box and long seated bullets to COL 3.75" to give it a case capacity advantage over the .423/.416 Dakotaor RUM.

But the .338 Lapua Magnum brass is the best and sexiest around, for necking up, and hopefully Dakota will get the same Lapua brass properly headstamped and necked up with no other changes.

I have a .45 Lapua and am working on a .375 Lapua. The .423 Lapua would be excellent.

Somebody is whispering in my ear:
Weatherby Short Magnum calibers made on the .505 Gibbs case

by the way Norma makes the .338 Lapua Brass...

Husky

quote:

Originally posted by husky

Somebody is whispering in my ear:
Weatherby Short Magnum calibers made on the .505 Gibbs case

by the way Norma makes the .338 Lapua Brass...

Husky

Thanks for the info on .338 Lapua Magnum brass being made by Norma, my favorite brass maker. Don't think I had verified that but suspected it.

Horneber is pretty good too.

They make that .338 Lapua case head very heavy/thick/strong.

Dakota has contracted with Norma to supply their brass in the past, BeLL at times, and Jamison brass is the latest for the .404 Dakota.

I would hope that Norma makes the .423 Dakota/Lapua for them.

However, Mr. Jamison Makes the .408 Chey-Tac brass and it is best quality, thick-headed stuff too, so I am sure he could copy the Lapua thick-head if Dakota has him make it.

Surely Dakota would know better than to go wrong there.

Afraid I am going to have to pass on your new line of short-magnum Weatherby cartridges based on the .505 Gibbs with venturified double-radiused shoulders. How do you think they will feed? I know: single stack short drop box, no worries, and a new short-magnum Mark V for .505 Gibbs case head.