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Alf,
I agree with you 100%, and I am one of those guilty parties that has, on occassion used the 338 and 375 on plainsgame hunts...

I also am aware that I could easily hunt the whole of Africa with a 30-06, including elephant and would without hesitation...

If I were to be dumped in the middle of darkest Africa and left with a lifetime supply of ammo and to my own means,then I would choose my 9.3x62 and never look back.

Its all fun and games these days and that is the driving force for Americans and their desire to hunt plainsgame with the Nostalgic 375 H&H....It's a matter of I wanna, not I hafta, or I need to.....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I will go with Atkinson, a 9.3x62 is OK for anything inclusive buffalo. I have used it since 1958 and it has never let me down.

If you absolutly want to bring a second gun a 308 or 30-06 is fine for the smaller stuff like leopard and lion.

Please do not for a second belive a big caliber will compensate bad shooting. Make the first shot count and you will never have any problems.
Regards
Bjorn

While I do not have anywhere near the experience in Africa as Alf, Bjorn or Ray, I've had my share and concur wholeheartedly with what they are saying.
We, as a group of American hunters, have taken rifle caliber choice way overboard for typical safari shooting. The idea that anyone "needs" a 338 or 375 just to shoot plains game is laughable. I've never hunted anywhere in Africa where such cannons were a necessity. Wanting one to do it is another matter and I think Ray touched on that accurately. Many of us today are filled with romantic nostalgia and that's why so many old archaic calibers are being sought out and used. Again, if that's what floats your boat, have at it.
Two things about this entire safari gun business totally baffle me. First is caliber selection for general hunting, the other is many people's false sense of economy about bullets. They spend thousands of hard earned dollars to go hunting and then balk at paying for premium bullets! Instead, they use cheap, tin-foil jacketed bullets and risk having a bad angled shot not secure their trophy.

Well, back before WW-II you when on Safari, you had months not the few days to a few weeks that we have today. Plus back then you took several rifles with you, today, two can be one to many. Yea I would be nice to be able to go and hunt for a few months, shoot gods knows how much on a general License. Those days are gone, At 2000 USD a shot, yep my light rifle is going to be a 338 and the best bullets to be had. A 416 for the heavy Dangerous stuff. But if it should come to pass, I would like to take a walk from say Cape Town, in the South to Alexandria on the Med. with a 6.5 x 54 MS and a pouch full of ammo. I think that because those rifles was so light and handy and they killed way out of proportion, they were popular. You could carry the thing all day and 160gr bullets at 2300 fps was a deadly combo. Mine is not for sale.

I agree in theory with the gist of all this but not from either a practical perspective or that of the "trophy hunter". We all acknowledge the inherent difficulty in toting 3 rifles across the puddle. Sure, I'd love to have a light rifle along but with a .375 min for Dangerous Game one is rather locked in to a .375 & a large bore "IF" having a legal "Big Five" backup rifle is important to you. I can tell you that this is why I concentrated on maximizing my skills with the .375 and why it will always be with me in Africa. I also feel the killing power of the .375 brings with it a worthwhile edge on the heavier plainsgame. I think it pays off for the trophy hunter who is paying the freight on wounded animals, traveling thousands of miles in the process.
On another note, people who enjoy reloading and shooting the big bores would look rather silly leaving them at home when a legitimate opportunity to make use of it comes along.
To a lesser extent, perhaps but no less valid to my mind, is the desire to know of what one speaks in regard to the use and effectiveness of various calibers. I, as have countless others through the decades, wish to have personally used some of the larger calibers, even if it must occur on a one-time basis.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 11-27-2001).]

I think that George summed up the changes in environment which have caused the shift to larger, more powerful rounds. It would be nice to know what the old time ph's carried when their clients were take a bash at a Buffalo or Elephant. If it were some of the loun-n-boomers we've seen mentioned here, I can see why the clients could carry mouse guns. Ku-dude

Let us not forget the eternal search for the holy grail of rifles...

I am the ultamate experimenter of calibers, I want to use them all and note their effect in the hunting fields and have pretty much done so...This is my enjoyment..I love digging out the expanded bullets and autopsing the kill, the investigation of good and bad bullets..This is all part of why my ideas in caliber change from time to time and why I hate to use the same bullet, caliber or make of rifle more than a few times..I would have learned absolutly nothing by useing one caliber and load over the years except that it obviously worked....

I wouldn't change that for the world and Lord knows what caliber and type of rifle I will be laying great words of praise or demonization on next year, stay tuned...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

The older hunters had more game to shoot at, and, where probably better shots, at least under hunting conditions. Just more practice, and their livelihood depended on it.
I've gone through most of the stories about the hunters of that day. Bell was a fantastic shot, brain shooting elephants with that little 7 x 57, IIRC.

He shot over a thousand elephant, and, told some great stories. My favorite is getting treed by a herd of over a million cape buffalo, twice. Great stuff.

I also think the death rate among hunters at that time was higher. More game, more chances of getting nailed by that extra buffalo, etc. We only hear or read, about the great ones, the poorer shots being dead.

Also in this day of political correctness, we don't want to leave injured game.

Another point is like The Indestructible Buffalo story, written by Jack O'Connor.

Just what I want to do, shoot an old buff, have him and his partner try and kill me, my car, and my wife, and take 9 shoots from both a 375 and a 470 before dieing.

One of the game doctors on another site had a good tale about a Buff goring a hunter in the face, and opening him up like he was the one doing the skinning.

After a few stories like that, the 50 BMG round sounds a bit on the small side...

Also americans have a fascination with the biggest and the 'best', even if it's overkill. We drive giant, absurd cars, SUV's, and let women who can't see over the steering wheel drive them, and talk on cell phones at the same time, much less park them.

We buy giant houses, that take a fortune just to heat.

We go to Africa, to shoot the biggest game on the planet...

I think it's a cultural thing.

However, the great part about hunting is watching the 'hunters' try and deal with the recoil of some of these rifles.

All of a sudden, magnum pressures don't look so good, and a heavy bullet, at medium velocity looks pretty good.

This whole shooting thing is a bit strange.
You take a wooden battering ram, place it carefully in the shoulder area, where, after a long time in martial arts, is exactly what I would target if I want to separate your shoulder. Then you take the biggest possible
cartridge, get really relaxed so you can pull the trigger, and hit what you are aiming at, and also make separating your shoulder as easy as possible, and pull the trigger. You take battering rams, and continue changing them, until one either finally knocks you down, or separates your shoulder. Very strange;-)
Then there is the strange sado-masochistic experience of siting in your hunting rifle, usually done in a sitting position, so you can't absorb the recoil, and it does maximum damage.

Saeed is very bad about this, and doesn't even us a shot bag to lessen the recoil for his guests...;-)

In this day and age, videos like Saeeds' are of great value, because they do give you an idea of the effect of some of the current rifles. If a 375 will flatten an elephant with a well placed shot, what more do you need?

Still, how about hitting a buffalo perfectly, and watch him run a 100 yards, or more??

Makes you want a bigger gun...

s

All good comments and thus far it just shows that folks will use whatever "floats their boat" or something like that
That said, most of us hunt maybe one specie of the big five while on safari, the typical buffalo/plains game hunt. Sometimes leopard is thrown into the mix but a leopard isn't big and doesn't need or require anything like the calibers necessary for elephant or buffalo.
Why then would a hunter worry so much about a backup DGR when he will hunt only one buffalo on a given hunt? Again, I'm sure not trying to demean or make fun of another's choice, but it seems to me that a hunt that contains several plains species and one dangerous game specie is not the hunt to be armed with a 375 and a 416 or 450 bore stopper! I feel that person would be better served with a good 300mag or similar and a 375. That way, if the plains game rifle goes kaput you have a credible backup for it in the 375. Now I know someone will turn this rationale around and say what if the big bore goes south? If it goes south after sighting in and being carried for a few days then it wasn't tested thoroughly before leaving home!
If a hunter is going to Tanzania for 21 days and will be shooting several members of the big five, say three buffalo, lion and possibly elephant I can understand taking the 375 plus the 400+ stopper. I don't necessarily agree with the choice, based upon my time spent there on such hunts, but it's at least viable, IMO.
Again, I'm not trying to demean or make fun of someone else's ideas about guns or bullets, use what you like but don't hamper your own chances by going ill equipped!

For the most part, I don't think caliber makes that much difference. For at least 95% of all African hunting, I prefer to use the same calibers that I'd use for elk, etc. here at home. As far as killing power goes, there simply isn't that much difference between any of them, and I don't care about ballistic charts, graphs, fast, slow, or any such affiliated horseshit. If you hit the vast, vast majority of African big game animals well with a good bullet from any legal (in Africa) big game caliber, you'll collect your trophy, and that's the truth. This whole unspoken (but heavily implied) premise that one caliber will kill like a thunder clap, while another one will somehow ineffectually bounce off or otherwise fail is a great exercise in mental gymnastics, but a real-world waste of valuable time and resource.

I am astounded at the number of folks who place such a huge premium (in terms of time, effort, and dollars) on double-rifles and double-rifle calibers, only to wait five years between buffalo hunts to employ same. And some of these bozos have never even taken a single member of Africa's "Big Five" in their entire lives, so I don't know what all the fuss is about in the first place. Romance I guess...... But then I've also found that gun-related romance can be a rather bitter bargain, and an insepid drain of energies and resources that are better spent elsewhere.... Personally, I'd rather see someone hunt Africa with a good bolt-gun in a good elk caliber either on its own or teamed with a .375 H&H or .416 or some sort a big .45 and forget about the rest of it.

AD

Same old question...and the same replies. Doesn't take much for me to chime either. John Taylor said it all 50 or 60 years ago.

To paraphrase: Just because a caliber/rifle is capable of killing some certain beast doesn't mean it is enough gun.

When screwups happen, then there is no such thing too much gun. And if you haven't screwed up a shot you haven't done much hunting. Or you have a PH to fix it, etc., etc.

But to address the original supposition of big differences between visitors vs. locals, there is a little matter of visitors paying a lot more than locals. But if you are hutning impala, who cares what you shoot.

The last 3 different PH's I had had a 460, a 458, and a 416 Rem. I guess they were over-gunned!!

And like most locals, they can't shoot, in general, as good or any better than I can, and I don't want to depend on ANY of them to bale me out in a dangerous situation.

John S,
To explain my thinking further:

When I go to Africa I go to take two buffalo and they are the primary goal. I dread the prospect of having some sort of problem or incident that renders my "DGR" unusable and then having to shoot my buffalo with the "camp rifle". If I had along my beloved 7 mag or any other sub .375 caliber rifle I'd have no option but to use someone elses' heavy. This is something I wish to avoid, thus, the .375 serves as both my plainsgame rifle and my back-up "DGR".
A final element in this is that I shoot my .375 with confidence and do not feel compromised at any but the longest ranges. I state this fact in all modesty to support my contention that it is entirely possible for a person to use a .375 effectively for plainsgame of all varieties, if they work at it.

Nickudu-
In your case, where multiple buffalo are the primary species, I can understand your choice, just as I stated in a previous post. I would still do that type hunt with a small bore plus the big bore, but that's my choice just as your choice is yours. We're both satisfied!
However, your typical hunt is not what the average or first time hunter usually books. It is for that type hunter I made the observations that I did.

Have you seen the size of the mice down here!
I like to be sure that what I shoot dispatches the animal humanly and leaves my shoulder intact!
I'll hunt anything in Australia witha 6.5 but would want something bigger for the buff and scrub bulls. Although head shots will undoubtably prove fatal.
I'd really want a .375 minimum to be confident hunting buff here and a 416 just for the roos......

/

Alf:

Thanks for the historical perspectives.

Personally, I wouldn't take anything less than the .375, as it will do almost anything, and it is hell on impala!

I also think the cream rises to the top, which is why the .375's, the .416's, and the .470's, and the .500's are so popular now, the best combinations of power and penetration.

The great field performance of the .416's is why it has survived, not because of Ruark, IMO.

My first trip to Africa, I asked my PH what calibers he suggested from my list. He told me to bring my 416 Rem and 375 H&H. His suggestion of the 375 as my plains game rifle was because of the heavy brush we were hunting. He considered it a more reliable brush gun because of the medium speed and heavy bullet. There was a big brush fire in the area shortly before we arrived, so the terrain was mostly burned off. I had two shots less than 100 yds.; the rest were 150-300. Last year I took the same tandem only because the rifle I was going to take as my plains rifle starting losing its accuracy potential. I definitely would preferred having a 308 or 7 MM size rifle for my second, but one was not available.

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JD

After being in the firearms business for 20-odd years and killing a little bit of game both small and great, my advice to most of my clients is shoot the largest caliber they can handle well. As Will pointed out it's when the chips are down that the little "extra" in diameter and bullet weight comes in handy.
The other "dity" I give my clients is that there is no such thing as "overkill". You can't kill something too dead. And sometimes you just might wish you had!!

Patch

I will tend to agree with the original thought proferred here of "overkill," but I have to tell you that after hunting "just" plains game in Africa this past September, I am TOTALLY convinced on the wonders of the 375 H&H for everything. SOme of the shots I took ( which were all one shot kills BTW) I would have hesitated with a lesser caliber than say a 33 and NEVER with an 06 or smaller. With a 375 and a properly constructed bullet, your chances ( given adequate shot placement of course!)of bringing home a trophy are enhanced with a medium bore. Would my 300 Weatherby have been sufficient? of course it would have, but if one looks at an eland and all he's offering you is a front quarter shoulder shot, that 375 feels a hell of a lot better in your hands!

For the visiting hunter, the safari is a grand experience. The gun and caliber chosen and toted is a part of that experience. To some folks, there 270, -06 or 7 mag is just there white tail gun. While the guns would be entirely adequate from a technical point of view, said hunter may choose to tote a 375 H&H, because that is what they want when to have toted across the African planes in their memories of the hunt.

Lets face it, the American hunter associates small bores with deer, hotly debate their use on Elk, and when they think Africa, they think 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and 458 win mag.

Maybe it's my profession, but I just like carrying a bit more then a bit less. If I can fire a medium bore as proficiently as a small bore, and I can, then what is the advantage of the small bore? If I want light and compact, I carry a revolver, not a pea shooter with a fly rod barrel, but to each their own.

I can drive tacks with my .458, it's fun to shoot.

hello,

I hear a lot about round for Africa and I understand why a person would need two rifles. One for heavy hitting close range and another for flat shooting, when I look at a lot of heavy hitting rounds and compare them I have no doubt in my mind that my 50 Alaskan lever action rifle would down anything in Africa. I know there may be some question to this, but if you look at the evidence you will see it verifies my belief. The 525 gr. cast led Cash Bullet at 2000 fps or more is going to do the job.

Ditto Will, Nickudu, Patch, and Paul H.

The visiting hunter who is including just one cape buffalo with the mixed bag is best served by a 375 and a 416. Or just a pair of 375's. This is so patently obvious nothing more need be said. I am sure I will not get the last word here, however.

Sure, it would be nice to have a peashooter and a big double with a gunbearer for each, but let us be practical. The realistic hunter, and it has nothing to do with "romance," should take the only happy-medium bore there is, a 375, and something bigger, but not too much bigger.

Why surely a pair of 416's would be great too!

Any .375 from the H&H on up or any .416 from the Taylor on up.

Seems obvious to me.

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RAB

RAB-
A few things seem obvious to me as well!

While there is obvious difference between the guns of visiting hunter and professional hunter,this is by no means a law,and a new path can always be blazed.
Actually half of the fun of hunting in africa is in using big bore,although one might regret his decision later.
I think this is a simple matter of wants and needs.My mind tells me that for nearly all african plains game, 7x57 Mauser,that I own, is sufficent.But my heart pushes me towards .375 H&H.
African hunting is very personal matter for all of us.We all try to start with the biggest and as we gain experence,we discover that we dont need cannons to hunt in africa and find our pet caliber,as "Bell" did and by hunting more than 1000 elephants, prooved that his pet caliber was up to the mark.
But for the followers of heart,like myself, will find africa an excuse for battery of big bore.