The Accurate Reloading Forums
404 or 416?
404 or 416?
Im planning a self guided hunt in Cameroon for Bongo. Im told I need a DG rifle and that a 9.3 (my preference) is too light. In that light whats my best bet? What is the minimum for DG and what is ammo avaialbility?
30 May 2006, 06:46
retreever416 Rems are available with many choices of premium bullets...With reloaded ammo the 416rem can be chranked up as a real punisher on game...
Mike
Michael Podwika... DRSS bigbores and hunting
www.pvt.co.za " MAKE THE SHOT " 450#2 Famars
30 May 2006, 07:13
bwana dogo416 Rem.Tremendous versatility, outstanding killer.All kinds of bullet weights and types are available.Bwana dogo
The 416 is the way I would go. More available ammo and hopefully Kimber or someone else will step up and fill the void that winchester left.
30 May 2006, 07:54
Eland SlayerWhy not just bring something like a single shot 45-70 pistol or something like that?

30 May 2006, 09:08
bulldog563I would prefer a Rigby. He really said a 9.3 is light for Bongo? It seems like it would be great choice to me.
30 May 2006, 09:53
fredj338I have a .404j but if you are not a dedicated handloader, then a .416rem. might be a bit better choice. Really though, a .375h&h would do you well on a Bongo bunt & to protect you from any nasties, maybe take a forest buff. as well.
LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT!
30 May 2006, 09:55
Robert johnsonJohn
Who is your connection in Cameroon? Cam?
Robert Johnson
I suppose if you run into one of those ornery forest buffalo a short barreled 404J might come in handy. But for Bongo?
_________________________________
AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim.
30 May 2006, 12:55
interboatWhoever told you a 9.3 is too light is full of shit.
30 May 2006, 17:36
ozhunterThe 9.3x62 would be as light as I would go on Eland size game, but using 300grn SWIFT A FAMES and 296gr solids it would not be too light IMO. OZHUNTER
30 May 2006, 18:46
onefunzr2I concur with interboat and ozhunter. Bongo is not considered DG. You were probably informed to use a DG caliber to protect yourself from a run in with buff or other nasties that inhabit the same area as Bongo. 375 H&H is usually considered minimum for DG. If you were using a 30-06 for Bongo and were forced to defend yourself from a buff trying to stomp you into the turf, I don't think you'd get into trouble with the local authorities doing so. In any event, I'd practice climbing trees. That might save your butt more than a big bore rifle.
The DG rifle you were told to bring is an assault rifle....Congo can be dangerous...you say you are going unguided???? good luck.
******************************************************************
R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle."
******************************************************************
We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?'
9.3X62 is a great round. It's killed a bunch of African game!
I'm having a couple of 404 Jeffery rifles made. Mainly because I have a 450/400 3 inch DR.
416 Rem has a long great penetratiing bullet.
Either the 404 or the 416 will serve you well, however if you have a 9.3X62, no need to go shopping. . .Unless you want a new toy!
Rusty
We Band of Brothers!
DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member
"I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends."
----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836
"I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson
Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”
Get a 9.3x64 it is enough for any living Bongo and is sufficeint for anything the 375 is.
The x64 is a 375 performance rifle on a 98 action. Now that can't be bad.

I know I'm talking to myself, but then I'm used to it,

I've been married for 30 years.
To answer your question, I would get a 416 there is much more ammunition and more rifles to choose from.
31 May 2006, 05:56
AfricanHunterquote:
Originally posted by bulldog563:
I would prefer a Rigby. He really said a 9.3 is light for Bongo? It seems like it would be great choice to me.
Having shot 3 in the rain forests of Sudan and never knowing what you will encounter when out for a "walk", I for one consider the 9.3 too small. Not in the sense it would be too small for bongo, but there are other encounters than could pop up.
31 May 2006, 17:42
GAHUNTERAs far as a 404 Jeffery vs a .416 Whatever, get whichever snaps you cap. If you handload, they all throw a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps, or there-abouts. I have both the Rigby and the Jeffery, and really LOVE my .404, in spite of a whole list of annoying feeding and headspace problems.
Thank all of you for your posts. Just to claify
I was advised to use a DG rifle based on other critters that might pop up unexpectedly at close quarters.
Its been a hell of a party Woodrow
Can you tell me what problems you have? I have been inclined to get a CZ with a 20/in barrel and take it up to a 404.....but I tend not to want to fool with problems. I like things to work.....especially when its a long walk out to look for parts. Did it before and didnt think it was fun.
quote:
Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
As far as a 404 Jeffery vs a .416 Whatever, get whichever snaps you cap. If you handload, they all throw a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps, or there-abouts. I have both the Rigby and the Jeffery, and really LOVE my .404, in spite of a whole list of annoying feeding and headspace problems.
Its been a hell of a party Woodrow
01 June 2006, 01:30
GAHUNTERMy problems were smith problems. I built mine on a Ruger M77, Mark II, RSM action originally in .375 H&H. I found out the hard way that getting a 404 round to feed out of a .375 magazine takes more than a little work. I should have taken the advice of folks on this board who know better and had it built on an Ultra Mag action, which already has the feed problems worked out for the 404 case.
01 June 2006, 02:22
jeffeosso416- of any kind except the weatherby
you can borrow my 416 AR if you want.
9,3x62 too small for bongo? to paraphrase interboat - bladderdash..
but, to tell you the truth, if the 9,3 won't do it, i would do a 458 lott
jeffe
01 June 2006, 06:26
retreeverJohn,
One of my hunting partners told me this...Do you want the minimum gun in your hands if something goes wrong???
Mike
Michael Podwika... DRSS bigbores and hunting
www.pvt.co.za " MAKE THE SHOT " 450#2 Famars
01 June 2006, 09:27
JustinL01John,
Could you tell us more about your self-guided hunt? If you don't want to talk about it on here, could you send me an e-mail? It's jel225@psu.edu.
I heal fast and don't scar.
05 June 2006, 18:04
China Fleet SailorA 400 grain bullet out of either is the minimum recommended as a fully capable stopping rifle, which you may need as you won't have a pro along. The .416 bore has an advantage over the .404 (actually .423) because you can get chamber inserts that allow you to shoot .410 shotgun shells. This may come in handy because you'll have to pack in all your supplies either on foot or in a dugout canoe and you can supplement your food supply. You could also get a chamber insert made for .41 mag and take smaller game without all the noise or recoil. Accuracy should be adequate at short jungle ranges
06 June 2006, 23:32
mr rigbyi would go for 404 because here in norway, its Norma ammo to get and i reload all of my ammo. and it has lower pressure than the 416 rem mag, and it will fit in a m-70 or 700 receiver as well .
08 June 2006, 00:53
gerrys375onefunzr2:
I laughed out loud about your suggestion about learning to climb trees. My only other thought was - Why is a black powder load like the 404 being talked about at all? (please, anyone else, spare me the talk about how it is Improved" as a smokeless load. That's like saying that the bicycle is just great -ever since Reo developed an auto) Like the 45-70 fanatics I want to bury them all with wooden stakes in their hearts. (Like vampires they keep coming back from the dead!)

08 June 2006, 07:55
China Fleet SailorThe .404 Jeffery wasn't "improved" as a smokeless load. It was introduced in 1910 as a smokeless round and never was a black powder load at all.
08 June 2006, 08:51
N E 450 No2If I was going to hunt Bongo, from the videos I have seen, and the hunters I have talked to, I would use my soon to be scoped, it is with JJ right now, 450/400 double rifle.
DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
try a .425 westley richrds.its just as good as the other two , but if you like to be a little different,its got that africa flavour with all the punch and,in a standard action.
08 June 2006, 23:24
gerrys375China Fleet Sailor:
According to a quite extensive article by Keith Luckhurst,(googled on the Internet) the 404 Jeffery was introduced in 1905 (not 1910) as a "duplicate" of the 450/400 -described as a black powder load. I admit that I spoke too fast in calling the 404 a black powder load. i should have said that it was no better than any black powder load -judging from the ballistics. Small wonder that the 375 H&H made such a splash in 1912!
09 June 2006, 01:34
China Fleet Sailorgerrys375,
Yes, the 450/400 was originally a black powder cartridge. It made the transition to smokeless powder, and the 404 Jeffery duplicated the smokeless cartridge's ballistics in a bolt gun. But if that means it is no better than a black powder cartridge, then by the same logic the .458 Win Mag is no better than a black powder cartridge. After all, it attempted to duplicate the ballistics of the old 450 Nitro
Express round which also was a black powder cartridge to start with.
I read that article in African Hunter. But you'll also note that the last paragraph in "Reloading the 404 Jeffery" is devoted to the fact that it is ". . . an excellent calibre for the largest and most dangerous game." It doesn't have the flat trajectory of the .375 H&H, but flat trajectory won't matter as much as the heavier bullet and greater cross section during a forest hunt in Cameroon. The bottom line is that Mr. Luckhurst has noted excellent performance in the field, and I think that John Greenlee would probably be just as happy.
09 June 2006, 02:19
new_guyWhile on the subject of 450/400s, some may not know that there are two different versions.
The 3.25" version was originally a BP cartridge.
The 3.00" version (aka 400 Jeffery) was designed by Jeffery @ 1896 as a smokeless powder cartridge following the development of cordite in 1889 by Sir James Dewar and Sir Frederick Abel.
Anybody have an opinion on this gun? Quality? Value for money?
Listed only as a .416 Rem Mag in Walnut and Blue.
$2,175.00
http://www.berettausa.com/product/product_rifles_main.htm
___________________________________________________________________________________________
09 June 2006, 02:40
577NitroExpressIf it is a toss-up between the .416 Rigby and .416 Remington, I would go with the Remington. The cartridge can fit into a standard magnum length action and the ballists are very similar:
.416 Remington Ballistics.416 Rigby Ballistics 577NitroExpress
Double Rifle Shooters Society
Francotte .470 Nitro Express
If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming... 09 June 2006, 08:05
D HunterWhat has not been said about bongo hunting is that it takes place in the worst of situations for accurate shot placement. This opinion is from books, never done this myself. It seems that bongo prefer thick moist environments with lots of cover from bamboo or understory. When you get a shot it will likely be at a small patch of orange fur through a small opening in the green. May not be in a vital area. You need to punch a big hole in it's hide in order to slow it down enough to catch up and finish it on the second shot. 30-06 is plenty to kill one if you put it throu the lungs but you need a bigger bullet to open a big hole for this, perhaps sloppy shooting scenario. It is rated as a very difficult, physically demanding type of hunt. Lots of crawling over and under and through stuff that you would rather not, trying to be silent all the way. Usually allow a month hunt to have any reasonable chance of success. That puts me out of the running for another 20 years at least. By then the availability/physically demanding parts may prohibit me from having a chance. Good hunting and let us know if you score.
Although cartridge selection is important there is nothing that will substitute for proper first shot placement. Good hunting, "D"
09 June 2006, 22:27
mr rigbyjens perto a danish hunter/gunwriter used 404 on a bongo hunt and he wrote about it, cit was a very challenging hunt ,and he didnt get many chances, and those that was ,were obstructed by vegetation, but he got the bongo after several days of hard work work,
09 June 2006, 23:53
gerrys375China Fleet Sailor:
Thanks for the informative reply. I went back and reread the article (which I read quite fast the first time) I guess I let my real prejudice against reviving black powder loads make me shoot my mouth off. Even at my age, I did not put brain in gear before engaging tongue - a real fault of mine since I ever learned to talk!

10 June 2006, 11:00
China Fleet SailorDon't worry about it. I also don't favor black powder cartridges. In general I think it's bad policy to use a marginal (at best) weapon simply out of nostalgia. In this case, though, these particular cartridges remain relevent because they still work. A century ago the Brits had a pretty good handle on what constituted a good cartridge for African and Indian big game hunting.
10 June 2006, 11:29
bulldog563quote:
Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:
A 400 grain bullet out of either is the minimum recommended as a fully capable stopping rifle, which you may need as you won't have a pro along. The .416 bore has an advantage over the .404 (actually .423) because you can get chamber inserts that allow you to shoot .410 shotgun shells. This may come in handy because you'll have to pack in all your supplies either on foot or in a dugout canoe and you can supplement your food supply. You could also get a chamber insert made for .41 mag and take smaller game without all the noise or recoil. Accuracy should be adequate at short jungle ranges
I wasn't aware you could get inserts for the 416 Rigby to allow it to shoot 410 and 41 mag shells in it. Do you know where I could find these inserts or do they have to be custom made?
10 June 2006, 11:41
China Fleet SailorI'm working on it. The insert is mentioned in the writings of Cam Greig. He's got extensive experience hunting without a guide in several African countries, primarily Cameroon. He uses a .410 chamber insert and a .41 Action Express insert to fire quiet loads for small game so as not to spook larger game, elephant in particular. I e-mailed him, and he had his made by a company called MCS. Unfortunately, they've been bought out and moved away.
If I can't track them down I'm going to try and find out who manufactures the chamber inserts for companies like E. Arthur Brown. Or some other gunsmith who is a good machinist.
Cam says he had to have an insert made for his rifle because it isn't controlled round feed. The insert ensures proper headspace. He believes a CRF rifle can fire a .410 shell without an insert as the claw should hold the shell back against the firing pin. Any gunsmiths out there know if this would be a safe practice or not?