As someone who has done a conversion on a 375 Rum from 375 H&H in an extra Ruger, I sympathise with you. The closest to quantifying the recoil, I'd say the RUM is closer to a 416 in terms of recoil. It is accurate when you control your flinch, but it can be difficult when you know that the faster recoil will knock you for a loop with a moment's inattention.

I know I have searched for an answer to this thread on my part when I was having my .375 H&H M70 S/S rechambered to 375 RUM. I have shot about 40 rounds now all at the range mind you and I'd have to say it is significantly more than the H&H & it comes back at you much faster too. If I was to be honest it really wacks you & hard.

I have to say its a lot more than what I was expecting when I was " reading" about it rather than shooting it. Now my 375 RUM is stocked in a left over Safari Express wood stock with Talleys 1nch QD's & a Leupold Vari X III 1.75-6 x 32E scope & a thick 1 inch pad. I have not weighed it but my Sako 375H&H weighs 9lb 8 oz with its Schmidt & Bender incl. 4 rounds. This rig feels like it weighs more empty. So it is no lightweight. Maybe 9.75 lbs.

Anyway that is my take. Do I regret it? No it was fun finding out & its still fun to shoot. I just use a recoil reducing jig and the recoil is nothing. Out hunting it should be OK. And boy does it make a loud bang at the range (no muzzle brake just stock Winchester 24inch barrel)
As long as I can keep my Leupold together long enough I'll hunt with it.

I put a post here in the optics section. Twice now my leupold (bought a yr ago but only used recently) has failed me & I have to start my sighting in again. The first time the image went fuzzy at 6x after 15 shots. They replaced the erector lens system. Shot it today & it failed again after 17 shots. Now that really SUCKS and I'm not talking of a Remington action either.

I'm really surprised cause Saeed has not had any problems with his Leupold on the 375/404. The RUM should be a ballistic clone. I was using 270gn Rem factory ammo.

BTW I shot the Sako H&H with PMC factory Ammo & the 300 Barnes XLC. Boy that was a pussycat in comparison. Shooting the 375RUM is quick way to realise that the H&H is a " low recoil" round & then you enjoy shooting it. The H&H not the RUM!

Regards,
JohnT

Can't comment on the recoil issue, but I have a Leupold 1.5 x 5 mounted on a CZ550 in 375 that went fuzzy on me after about 40 rounds. Leupold replaced the front lens and I have shot about 20 rounds with no problems, but like you I am waiting to see what happens. I leave for Africa in May. Just out of curiosity, if you change brands which scope will you but next?

John,

Both my 375/404 have the Leupold 2.5-8 scopes on them, and I have never had any problems whatsoever.

I think we must have had over 1000 Leupold scopes through our workshop, and I remember every single one that has developed any fault.

A 1.5-5X refused to keep its zero
2 x 3.5-10X which we got already installed on rifles we bought from Germany were faulty
A 6.5 -20 had its cross hair broken.

Regarding the recoil, just keep shooting your rifle, you will soon get used to it.

As Walter says, it is all in the mind, so if you do have any brain matter in your head, I am afraid you will continue to suffer.

Apparently mine has all evaporated.

Saeed thanks for your response & this great forum. It is because I know you have been very happy with your Leupold's on your 2 375/404's that I am persisting with my Leupold. I don't know what is going on. The rifle is not even a lightweight special being about 9.75lbs all up.

I wished I could have used the 2.5 - 8 Leupold like you but the location of the mounting holes on the M70 Classic require a longer tube length of at least 5.4 inches.

I think I will need to shoot something bigger so that I can get used to the recoil of the 375RUM. Maybe that Tyrano you have in your videos. The "flying rifle".

1115 on my 375 H&H Sako I went with a S&B 1.5-6 x 42. What a nice scope but it's too short in the tube for the M70. All the Euro Optics are somewhat heavier and a heck of a lot more expensive. I didn't really want the extra weight mainly.

475 Guy you and I really got a lesson in Recoil Appreciation 101. I must admit that from what I "read" I did not anticipate that the recoil would be so much more. I think its the sharpness that really gets me. Mind you I was comparing with Factory loads (.375H&H PMC Gold with 300 Barnes XLC) & although I haven't chrono'd them they seem milder than my 270gr Handloads which is a max load as per the manuals.

Or as Saeed says we need to kill more brain cells to dull the recoil receptors. I think I prefer to drink myself to that state with some fine Australian Red.

Regards
JohnT

JohnT,



Have you tried lapping in the rings on that beast?



If the scope mounting system is mis-aligned or loose it can really work on your scope. It also helps to have the action full-length bedded, in my opinion.



I even bed the scope bases onto the action, and use 8-40 screws.



I had one Leupold go out, it was perfect after repair. I've shot my 416 Rem over seven hundred rounds with no further issues.



Good luck,

John,

I've got a 1.75X6 luepold on my .375 H&H the only thing I've done is lap the rings. I also lock tight the base screws the ring screws and the base attachment screws. I use leupold qd bases and weaver low rings for the lowest scope set up I can do. This is a fairly light weight rifle (It's M-70 SS that's been cut to 20" fluted and is wearing a McMillian stock it weighs in at about 8Lbs). After well over 1000 rounds the scope has never so much as shifted zero. I think you got a lemon...

I have the 1.5x5 on my 375 Whitworth and a 2x7 on my Rum neither of which has shown any signs of losing zero. I was out with my Rum yesterday and took a beating but it has convinced me to go to a different stock. I have never liked the Rem. stock and this has convinced me to go with more weight and a wider butt with the Decelerator on it.
It is funny but my 458 with max loads also in a Whitworth and a Lott on the Win. P-17 action at more weight are both more comfortable to shoot than the Rum. The Rum is newer to me but I really think it is the weight that will make it more comfortable to shoot.
Good luck,
Frank

JohnT:

I have shot a .378 Weatherby with a 1.75x6x32 Leupold now for several years...the rifle has a 26" barrel and it has a brake..it is an easy rifle to shoot and it is accurate when I am...and I haven't touched the scope in years. I would stick with Leupold, but, as has been suggested, it might be wise to buy a brand new scope and put it on your rifle.

As far as recoil goes, I am one of those folks who simply feels that a quality synthetic stock greatly reduces recoil on any rifle. I have an H-S Prescision on my .378 and a Bell and Carlson on my .416 Wby (which does have noticable recoil ), and I am convienced the brakes, aluminium bedding blocks, the type of synthetic material that make up the stocks, and the recoil pads all taken together make these rifles comfortable to shoot and accurate.

---Like your partcular scope, I have had equipment that had persistent problems..I once owned a .270 Win (M70) with a Simmons scope that thumped me right beween the eyes whenever I shot it...after a lot of fooling around, I had to get rid of the whole outfit. I had a Nikon scope that had no windage (should have gotten a Leupold in the first place). And I had a beautiful M 70 .338 Win. Mag. with a beautiful wooden stock that would hurt me everytime I shot it....it had to go.

I bet you get used to the 375 RUM...

Don G,

No I haven't lapped the rings in but I'm getting so paranoid about it I am thinking of getting my gunsmith to install it next time & lapp if necessary. I have loc tited the bases in but not the rings obviously as it's a QD.

I don't think its an alignment problem as the brand new scope untouched & installed in the rings collimated perfectly such that I made no adjustments till I shot it at the range. I don't know if the tube might be slightly oversize & that may cause a problem but I don't think with a Leupold they would make that kind of error. Talley rings well what can I say, they are so well machined - they should be fine. If there was any misalignment problem I would have thought leupold would have informed me of the problem when I sent the scope back. They should have detected any bending of the tube.

RWJ & Frank I am heartened to hear that others shooting the same or even heavier calibres than I have had no problems. The recoil on that 378 must be something to behold. My club range has a tin roof with insulation underneath. Contruction is decidedly home made & some water must have got in. Everytime I fired the RUM a splash of water would come out the roof. With the 378 + muzzlebrake I'm sure it would have been a thunderstorm.

Surestrike maybe this one is a Lemon. Every manufacturer has those. Getting them to admit it is one is another matter. We'll see what Leupold says. I have written them.

Surestrike the recoil on the RUM is significantly more severe than the H&H. But I am sure as others have said, I'll get used to it.

Thanks all for your responses.

Regards
JohnT

I have a 1-4 leupold on my .375 H&H (cz 550) and it is fine, maybe the heavier cz would be a better candidate for the rum reaming.

PC my M70 375 Rum weighs in at 9.75 pounds. That's enough for me. It would have been lighter & more unpleasant with the factory tuppaware stock but I've put on a left over Safari Classic wood stock from a custom that Bob deVries and Ross Waghorn are doing for me.

How's your .404J going at Bob's. I've paid mine off (also a .404 on a 1909 Argentine) & am waiting for Bob to return from SA to collect it.

Regards
JohnT

John,



I think the real value in the 375 RUM or the 378 is to be able to generate top 375 H&H ballistics with about any powder and low pressure.



With the enormously wide loading parameters available to the 375 RUM or 378 when duplicating 375 H&H ballistics I think the chances of getting good accuracy over the full range of 375 bullets will also be improved.



One of the strange things about backed off loads is that the rifle seems to also be less fussy with regards to bedding and also scope and mounts. Why this should be I have no idea as the recoil is still much the same as the smaller case loaded to maximum pressure.



Have you ever noticed the very good accuracy 416 Rigby shooters are getting? I believe one of the major reasons is that they are using backed off loads. Saeed is also getting very accuracy with his 375/404s and doing it with mono metal bullets. His loads are only equal to top end 375 H&H ballistics.



Mike

Mike375: I have never thought about the ballistics of the .378 in the way you just described, but I think you are absolutely right. Until 2000, I honestly never heard of a .375/404 until reading what Saeed has published here on AR, but since then I have been convienced that Saeed's .375/404 wildcat is (1) essentally the same as a .378, or a .375RUM (and it may be argued that the Remington .375RUM is Saeed's .375/404), and (2) these cartridges can deliver a great deal of power and accuracy at the upper (or top) range of the .375H&H and still be manageable to shoot. Like most Weatherbys, the .378 has a great deal of power: it can spit a 300 grain RN soft point out the muzzel exceeding 3000 fps (observed chronograph with my rifle), but when downloaded can produce excellent handling results while still kicking butt a the high end of the .375H&H. Saeed's success with his .375/404 on so many tough animals provides a great deal of empirical evidence to support this.

rwj

In recent times I have completely converted to the idea of using the big case loaded back. In fact I have ordered some rifles via Wbys custom shop and these include a pair of 378s and a 30/378. One of the reasons that sent me in this direction is that we don't have as wide a range of powders as you have in the US. I haved used the 375 all of my life for kangaroos, goats, pigs, rocks, beer tins etc but I have alwsays been a bit put off with it because the 4064/Varget type powders are a bit quick for it and the 4350s are a bit slow. On the other the 378 will do the H&H ballistics with ease and at the same time you know you can turn of the turbo charge and have a big 300 Wby.

A mate of mine has three rifles set up around the 264 Winchester and he is looking at changing to 6.5 Ultra but only loading to equal flat out case ruining loads in the 264. Another mate of mine has a 30/378 Accumark and he loads it only just above full 300 Wby ballistics. I think a 30/378 would probably equal the 30/06 if black powder was used

Mike

Mike,

I was hoping you would go the 375 RUM route (with the Win 70 action) & instead you have gone to the 378 Weatherby. I was looking fwd to a stream of your reloading data - as you know there is not much of it.

With my scope problems I have not had much of a chance to do load testing. I did have some Handloads with AR2213SC & AR2217 using the Nosler Manual starting loads & then up to max. I did get a chance to fire the loads loaded with AR2217 from memory it was 101gr, 103gr & 105gr the last 2 being compressed. Rem cases, Fed 215 & Woodleigh 300gr PP. Groups were pretty lousy compared to my H&H. Best was just under 2inch and worst(the Max load) 3.5 inches - all 3 shots @ 100m.

I may try some loads lower than those starting loads when I get the scope sorted out. Can you suggest how much lower its OK to go to? (with those 2 powders)

Also with throttling down is it better to go with the faster powder of the slower powder that fills the case more?

I know you like the belt for reduced loads & no headspacing problems. A mate & I had a lot of fun firing offhand the H&H with the 220gn Hornady FP & 42gn AR2205 at 50m. Great load. Thanks for that one & the others for my H&H.

Regards
John

John,

I usually prefer and getter better results with faster powders.

In a big case like the 375 RUM or the 378 either of those will easily match 375 H&H ballistics with backed off loads of 2208. If you go to Hodgdons site they have 375 RUM data and for H4350 (=2209) and H4831 (=2213SC)

For 2208 use either 82% of the 4831 load or 85% of the 4350 load and back off 5 grains or so. You will end up with powder charge weights that are similar to the powder charge weights of 2209 in a 375 H&H. Backing loads right off with the slow powders works OK but often you get a real heavy BOOM and recoil is high.

My guess is that a 2205 load will also be fine in the 375 RUM. To obtain load of 2205 to try out simply compare data with 4350 in the H&H and the RUM and increase the 2205 H&H load by the same percentage increase in powder weight that the RUM shows over the H&H for normal full power loads. If such a load shows extremely low pressure do not start going for increases as you might be getting hangfires that are far too small to notice but they reduce the pressure and so give a false reading. You might also find that the 375 RUM does better with the 2205 type loads with heavier bullets such as the 270 or 300 grainers.

That type of load is where the 378s don't work as hangfires become the order of the day. The problem is the very large case and huge freebore. With the 378s you can easily come down to low end H&H ballistics but then the next stage means shotgun flake powders and 1500 f/s etc.

Mike

Many Thanks Mike,

Regards
JohnT

John,

The LW barrel will there for me to pay for I reckon and I owe another $450 on the action (most of the work has been done, new bottom metal, english bolt handle, feeding etc.)Did you buy the .404 he already had made up with the engraving etc. ?? That was a truly awsome rifle, he had about 4k on it.

Mike375

Maybe I am misinterpreting you but aren't you impliedly saying that far too many shooters for "macho" reasons ("I can shoot anything") or what, but they just don't get comfortable with the rifle - because it's a little too much. I don't like the 7mm Remington Magnum which I think is a truly unpleasant cartridge to shoot. I was shooting a 375 H&H in my mid 60s and enjoying it tremendously ( and, yes, shooting well, too) I had wondered about the 375 RUM. ( I have probably put some 4000 rounds or more of 300gr. 375 through a barrel) Maybe the cartridge changed the character of the 375 and it became more like the 7mm Rem.Magnum! (I am not entirely joking) I spent a lifetime as a game shooter and not as a target shooter. Bullet placement always was the name of the game and bullet placement only comes from a shooter totally comfortable with his rifle. ( Just an aside - In another life, over 50 years ago now, I used to train recruits with the M1 ("US rifle, cal.30") One of the hallmarks of a flinch was to watch (from the side)whether the recruit blinked before or after the shot. After the shot was OK, of course, but the guy who blinked in anticipation of what was about to happen when he squeezed off was flinching. Often he was on paper but he would never be the shooter he could be if he got rid of that instant, very fleeting "fear" (that's what it is)that made him blink before the shot. I'll bet that the 375 RUM produces a lot of those blinks!

I had the same experience with the 7mm Rem Mag and have avoided the new short mags. Now, I am buying a .375 H&H for a cape buff hunt. One friend told me that the .375 recoil did not feel as "sharp" as that of the 7mm or the .300 Win Mag. Any credance to that statement? I am not particularly recoil shy, but I am not the greatest shot and need everything possible in my favor. I do not like the magna ports nor gimmicks, so I opt for weight on the rifle to help with recoil.

Dogcat, if you can handle the recoil in a 7mm w/ 7.5# rifle comfortably, you can handle the 375 as long as it has some weight to it. The 375 and the 458Win are the only two bigger calibers that I consider to be user friendly. These two calibers are the only ones that will give you a good sized push as far as recoil is concerned .

Gerald,

No, I am not implying at all that the 375 RUM or 378 should be loaded to 375 H&H ballistics for recoil reduction or that a 30/378 should be loaded to 300 Wby ballistics.

What I am suggesting is that there are advantages in obtaining a set of desired ballistics by using a bigger case loaded back some. Undoubtedly some of my suggestion is pushed along a bit my our limited range of powders as compared to what you have in the US. If the goal is 375 H&H ballistics then the 375 RUM or 378 Wby can achieve those ballistics with a much wider variation of loads than can the 375 H&H itself. Ditto for the 270 Win Vs 270 WSM or 270 Wby or 300 Win Vs 300 Ultra and so on.

Quite often you will see posted on these various forums a situation where the poster is only getting top accuracy from his 270 Win with 2930 f/s for 130 grainer or perhaps 2875 f/s with the 180 grainer in the 300 Win. It does not matter how many people might say that the animal won't know the difference or the trajectory is only different by 3 inches or whatever, the facts are those shooters would be much happier with 3100 f/s registering on the chronograph. In the case of the 270 Wby/270 WSM or 300 Ultra those nice 3100 f/s numbers are obtainable with what virtually amounts to reduced loads.

Mike

Dogcat,

I've heard that story too. The .375 is a "slow push" rather than a "smack". Believe whatever will get you into a 375. Believe me you won't regret it.

Personally I reckon its wishful thinking. Having a 7mm Rem (ruger 1) it is definitely less than a 375 both rifles being of sensible weights but they are not likely to be the same are they?

The important thing is that the 375 H&H is such a fine calibre, great accuracy plus all that nostalgia. It is a classic. From a recoil point of view it is about at the limit where it can be mastered & then recoil is not an issue.

The 375RUM is a brute by comparison. Now to figure out how to tame the brute. Heck its all fun.