I wanted to share my experience with Fail Safe bullets during my recent trip to Namibia. I shot all my animals with my 300 WSM loaded with 180 Gr Fail Safe bullets. The performance was less than ideal as all the animals took off after the shot without any blood trail. All the animals were prefectly shot. I feel that if I was using any other bullet most of the animals would have dropped immediately. Here is a video clip of a Springbok perfectly shot that appeared to go back to feeding after the shot. Springbok Video

An impala that presented a front shot was shot dead center an the bullet was found in the hind quarter took off and was found 80 yards away shoud have also dropped instantly.

Beware of Fail Safe bullets on plains game...I suspect that Barnes X would have similar performance on medium to small game

The only drop-in-the-tracks shots I've ever experienced involved impacting the spinal cord, (or the brain, but that's usually not a viable field shot). That springbok obviously wasn't so hit but it looked like it only went a few yards and went down in less than 30 seconds. "At what part in the animals death did the bullet fail?"

Were any of the bullets recovered? How did they measure and weigh out? Did you lose any animals that were lung, shoulder, or heart shot?

They looked like they do OK on the Zebra.

Matt...check out the video I shot of my friend reddy375 shooting a zebra a few days earlier Zebra Swift A Frame

I would like to add that was a shoulder shot and not a spine shot as one might think!

Yup, that zebra went down. The spinal cord was certainly impacted, via the shoulder being whacked pretty hard. Watch how the hind quarters collapse first. Large caliber hitting the right place. I suspect that the same exact hit with a Remington Corelock would do virtually the same thing.

WOW! Quite a video. Not a recommendation for such a tough bullet on game this size.

That zebra was definately hit close to the spine, or on one of his front legs, transferring the impact to the spine. I see nothing wrong with the springbok, apart from the fact that it was propably hit just a fraction too far back, judging from the behavior. How did the exit wounds look like? Did they indicate expansion? If not, that might be why your animals took slightly longer to die. In my experience, a "drop to the shot" senario are pretty scare if not close to the central nervous system, or breaking one (or more likely), both shoulders. A good quality soft out of an appropriate caliber normally takes care of an animal within 50-100 yards.

AndreC, This is more like bullet failure. This is from the thread on Swift A Frames or Trophy Bonded Bear Claws.

quote:

Originally posted by baboon:
Here you go I found the bullets from that hunt.



The one on the right is the bullet I mentioned. As you can clearly see its fallen apart. the 327.9 grains that are remaining are far under what they claim in weight retention.

This is from the Speer web site.

Retained weights over 95 percent are the norm. Mushroomed lead stays with the jacket petals, The nose-heavy expanded bullet means straight-line penetration. This is one awesome bullet.

I have used the Fail Safes on everything from whitetails and hogs in the U.S. to seven species of plains game in African including wildebeest, kudu, impala and zebra and have no complaints. All of my kills except the kudu were one shot kills and the bullets performed perfectly.

I have had very good sucess with the FailSafe bullets. I have only used them on game in 338 and 375 diameters.

In my 376 Steyr I trim the meplats back so they will fit more easily in the magazine box. Awesome results.

LD

Sometimes when a bullet is fired at close range from a designed high velocity cartridge it won't expand. And therefore acts like a solid or worse. This might have been the case as I've seen it happen over and over with premium bullets fired through .300 WSM's and the like. When the targets are farther away this problem disappears. I like good old Nosler partitions for anything under 150 yards.

Maineguide

I have never hunted African plains game, so I am no expert on their toughness. However, I have hunted and killed all of North America's big game except the big bears. My experience with bullets is that a bullet that expends all of it's energy inside the body of the animal, is the bullet that gives you the instant, struck by lightening type kill.

A bullet that passes completely through an animal does not deliver the same amount of shock to flesh and bone as the ones that stay in the body.

On whitetail deer and similar size game here in the states, I am a big fan of the ballistic tip type bullets, because everything I have shot with them has been an instant kill. No blood trailing required. On elk, moose goats and rams I like the X bullets/TSX because they will penetrate, open quick and do a lot of internal damage prior to exiting which they may or may not do depending on shot placement.

As for shot placement, I always go for the mid center shoulder shot when possible, and I like my bullets to be embedded just under the skin on the opposite shoulder.

If you want, or like to blood trail use those bullets that pass thru an animal. If you want meat on the ground when you pull the trigger, use something that stays in the body carving up all the vital organs it touches.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
Yup, that zebra went down. The spinal cord was certainly impacted, via the shoulder being whacked pretty hard. Watch how the hind quarters collapse first. Large caliber hitting the right place. I suspect that the same exact hit with a Remington Corelock would do virtually the same thing.

Though bears are different in structure than the zebra, I've used the same "high shoulder" shot w/ success. With adequate cartridge/bullet, a bear hit high in the shoulder will damage the spinal cord and drop ass first the same as the zebra did.

The springbock wasn't feeding. His head was down possibly coughing up blood or trying to catch his breath. I timed it and the animal went down around 25 seconds after the shot. Not an unusually long time for a lung shot to take affect.

465H&H

Andre, I agree with you 100%. I had the same results as you, using Barnes X bullets in my 7mmMag. The bullets blew through everything, except a huge Eland, without much expansion.The X's even fully penetrated a broadside Zebra 3 times, with dime sized exit holes. I wont use them again for game smaller than an Eland, for which I think they are perfect.

On game that weighs less than 400 pounds, very hard bullets like Barnes X, Barnes Triple Shock and FailSafe can be too hard and will often go through like a solid. Even Nosler Partitions can be too hard for light game, depending on the caliber.

That's why Sierra is still in business.

Dan: I tend to agree with your view on "hard" bullets, but the TSXs seem to be working fine even on light game. I've only used them on hogs and they DO work there! As an aside, I'm also a big A Frame proponent, from bufffalo down to PG. absolutely perfect performance. jorge

500 Grains1

That hasn't been my experience with partions using large calibers (375H&H) on small animals. I took 40 rnds. of the old screw machine 270 gr partitions to Zimbabwe and took a kudu, grey duicker, steen buck, wart hog and leopard with one shot each. All droped at the shot. I then used the rest to cull impala. Again one shot each on lung shots. None moved from their tracks. I was amazed as it is the only bullet/cartridge combination that I have used that instantly killed impala sized animals with lung shots. There was visable expansion on lung shots on these small animals. I suspect that the new 260 gr partition will perform the same way.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
very hard bullets like Barnes X, Barnes Triple Shock and FailSafe cn be too hard and will often go through like a solid.

Remember that Barnes recommends using the next bullet weight smaller then you would normally use for that type of game.

quote:

A bullet that passes completely through an animal does not deliver the same amount of shock to flesh and bone as the ones that stay in the body.

BS!!!!
Energy does not kill, neither does "shock". If that were true, you all would have died from shooting anyting over a .223, as the recoil momentum is the same as the forward momentum of the bullet. The energy is less, because the heavier rifle is reluctant to move, thus move slower. Why is it that a .38 Special round of around 100ft pounds energy kills you, but on rifles pushing 100 ftlb recoil energy, you are not even wounded? They both have the same energy, though one kills and one don't. The difference is penetration. A bullet's energy figure only gives you an indication of its penetration ability, or its ability to do work. That is why it is totally senseless to try and compare different calibers to each other using bullet enerygy. If the caliber and the quality/ rate of expansion are not exactly the same, energy figures are worthless for comparing anything. As penetration is the name of the game, go for a strong bullet, and leave the Sierras for target shooting. (At least when hunting Africa, not because our game are tougher, but because they are generally bigger.) My choice would be an A-Frame or a Trophy bonded Bearclaw in that order, but go for whichever shoots best in your rifle. I choose these because they have the optimum balance between toughness and expandability. i would rahter have a exit wound anyday, as the animal dies quicker, and the blood spoor are much easier to follow. Nosler Partition are a OK choice, but before the Partition I would rather go for the bonded core polimer tipped bullets of today. (Accubond, Scirroco, Interbond...)

Karl: We'll agree to disagree, but what you say is just at variance with the facts. Hydrostasis does have an effect on animals. All things being equal, velocity does add to the overall effect. I might not have the same level of experience you do, but all animals except those over say 700 lb, velocity does seem to matter. On deer for example (roughly the equivalent of an impala), NOTHING kills them faster than my 100gr 257 caliber bullet @ 3500fps and I've shot them with everythng from a 416 Rigby on down. I agree with you about soft bullets, leaves those Sierras at home,but with today's modern bullets, a 180gr 30 cal bullet DOES kill better at 3000 fps than at 2400 for example. I don't have any experience on the last three bullets you mentioned, but I do have friends who have, and they haven't been impressed. jorge

465,

With the old lathe-turned partitions, I have always had excellent results.

With the newer Partitions, particularly in .375, .338 and .308 caliber, I have found them to be too hard for deer-sized game, and the game dies more slowly than if I use Sierras or even Ballistic Tips (gasp!).

I'll have to shoot some impala with the 260 grain partition to see if your right. I'll put that down as something to do soon.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

A bullet that passes completely through an animal does not deliver the same amount of shock to flesh and bone as the ones that stay in the body.

BS!!!!
Energy does not kill, neither does "shock". If that were true, you all would have died from shooting anyting over a .223, as the recoil momentum is the same as the forward momentum of the bullet. The energy is less, because the heavier rifle is reluctant to move, thus move slower. Why is it that a .38 Special round of around 100ft pounds energy kills you, but on rifles pushing 100 ftlb recoil energy, you are not even wounded? They both have the same energy, though one kills and one don't. The difference is penetration. A bullet's energy figure only gives you an indication of its penetration ability, or its ability to do work. That is why it is totally senseless to try and compare different calibers to each other using bullet enerygy. If the caliber and the quality/ rate of expansion are not exactly the same, energy figures are worthless for comparing anything. As penetration is the name of the game, go for a strong bullet, and leave the Sierras for target shooting. (At least when hunting Africa, not because our game are tougher, but because they are generally bigger.) My choice would be an A-Frame or a Trophy bonded Bearclaw in that order, but go for whichever shoots best in your rifle. I choose these because they have the optimum balance between toughness and expandability. i would rahter have a exit wound anyday, as the animal dies quicker, and the blood spoor are much easier to follow. Nosler Partition are a OK choice, but before the Partition I would rather go for the bonded core polimer tipped bullets of today. (Accubond, Scirroco, Interbond...)

Like I said, I am no expert, but I believe that the above animal would never have moved one inch and would have folded up on the spot when the trigger was pulled, had it been shot with a 150gr Hormady SST or similar bullet doing 3200 fps plus from the same rifle.

Speed and energy, along with the bullet and bone fragments flying around in the chest cavity is a recipe for instant death. No blood trail needed. Have seen it many times on whitetails, pronghorns and elk.

What rifle gives 100f/lbs of recoil? I shoot a 300 win mag and I think with a 200 gr bullet gives about 35f/lbs of recoil. By the way, you are comparing apples to oranges when you compare the recoil on the butt stock of a rifle to the energy of a bullet. A pointed bullet hitting you at 35 foot pounds will likely go thru you. Getting hit with a 2x4 at 35 f/lbs will probably just bruise you some.

quote:

465H&H

Shoot some Impala with some 150 or 165 gr Hornady SST's if you want to be impressed.

A good read on the subject of "The killing power of centerfire hunting rifles"

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power.htm

quote:

What rifle gives 100f/lbs of recoil? I shoot a 300 win mag and I think with a 200 gr bullet gives about 35f/lbs of recoil. By the way, you are comparing apples to oranges when you compare the recoil on the butt stock of a rifle to the energy of a bullet. A pointed bullet hitting you at 35 foot pounds will likely go thru you. Getting hit with a 2x4 at 35 f/lbs will probably just bruise you some.

Devildawg66, my point exactly, penetration matters, not energy. A small pointed projectile will penetrate a 10lbs rifle, with a huge butt, will not. So, it is not the enegy that kills you, it is the destruction of vital tissue, and that can only be achieved if you are inside! (read- penetration.) BTW, my .450 Rigby comes close to it with some loads, a .460 Weatherby can exceed it, and most of the .577 and up class weapons will easily exceed it.
Jorge, we had this discussion some time back, and while we agreed to disagree, i would just like to add a comment on high velocity kills. It is not the temporary wound cahnnel that kills, it is only the permanent channel, in other words the real hole through the vitals, that kills. In very high velocity kills, the bullet ussually shreads or disintegrate, and these fragments together makes the total permanent cavity larger than a nice, mushroomed controlled expansion bullet would have done at slower velocity. This, together with more likely bone splinters that cause secondary permanent wounds, all add up to a quicker kill. Now on smaller animals, like whitetails (which BTW I have No experience on) and impala/ blesbok/ springbok (of which I have personally shot a few thousand, with clients and on my own), it might be tempting to use these high velocity "grenades", as they normally drop the animal on the spot with a lung or heart shot, especially if hitting the front legs on the way in. Now all you have demonstated is that shot placement counts the most, and that you do not enjoy venison, as half of that animal is now ruined. What happens if you have a less than ideal shot? Say a angling shot from the rear on a 25 inch impala. Pass up the shot? Or angle the shot through the rumen, with penetration likely to be short? (Remember, you are paying around US$ 400 a day to be there, not taking a shot, and losing the trophy would both have financial implications.) Or while stalking impala with your super duper magnum, you run into a kudu, not 30 yards off, but all available shot is quartering on, and you have to try and put that fragile bullet through his humerus, to actually kill it. how many hunters can actually place their shot with high accuracy after walking most of the day? I would always reccomend, take a strong bullet (like Swift A-Frame or TBBC), and shoot it at no more than 2700ft/sec in bushveld terrain, and no more than 3000 on open plains. (any faster and even super strong bullets can break up,and most hunters are unlikely to use the slight flatter trajectory of a faster round anyway....) also, rather than upping your speed, up your bullet weight. Americans especially have been brainwashed into high velocity/ energy, and it is really unnecessary. Hope I have'nt offended anyone, but this is my belief, and I can back it up with lots of practical evidence. Just to open another can of worms, I also believe that hidrostatic shock are only likely to kill on brainshots, where a speeding projectile goes from a solid medium, (bone) to a semi-liquid (brain). As on most animals, excluding African elephants, the brain is so small that the projectile's permanent cavity destroys it already, nothing is noticed. When shooting elephants in the frontal lobe of the brain, they fall in a sort of slow motion effect, except if from a high energy round. (JMO- use it, don't use it...)

The failures I had with fail safe bullets were due to the bullet not opening at all. The entry and exit hole was identical. No ruff edge on exit but rather a smooth hole. I never found any bullets but based on how far the animals went there was not much tissue damage done to the animal. I had problems with an impala, hartebeast, gemsbuck, and zebra. All the same result regardless of where the bullet hit. I have used the x bullet and although they have full penetration, they cause enough damage that the animal will not go very far, and they bleed very well from both sides. I realize some people have had great luch with failsafe bullets and I don't doubt their success. For me I choose to use other projectiles. The great thing is that today we have so many bullets to choose from.

I just hope the Fail Safe (aka Black Talon) dies a peaceful death.

I have railed against the round since using them with my .338 WM on many different animals.

They made nice .338 inch holes on entry and nice .338 inch holes on exit. I consider that a failure for an expanding bullet plain and simple.

Did the animals die, sure but heart and lung hits will cause that. With that shot placement guaranteed a smaller round would work also but if you are off you want to maximize shock and trauma.

Fail Safes IN MY EXPERIENCE fail.

There is no such thing as a "fail safe" bullet. The springbuck staggered at the shot and collapsed shortly there after. I would not call that bullet failure. Having shot over 100 big game animals, I think maybe 10% of them dropped when shot. I never cease to be amazed at how far an animal can go when their vital organs are shot to hell.

The 4 PH's (S.A.) I have spoken with about what bullets work and what does not have all stated that the Failsafe is the worst possible bullet to use, period. Their experiences indicated a large amount of failure to expand on plains game. They pretty much recommend A-frames, TBBC's and to a lesser degree Partitions. They are mixed on the triple shocks though. Lastly, they all recommend you leave the Hornadys and Sierras at home. We are also talking about well seasoned PH's here that have experienced the whole gamut of African game hunting and know what they are talking about.

If you go to the petshop and bring home an elephant, dont expect it to purr.
Too much gun and bullet, or more fairly, not enough animal.
Try a simple 30-06/168tsx next time.

Here's some food for thought.

Newton's famous equation for force F=m*a is derived from his statement that force is the change in momentum per unit time in which the change occurs.

This means the force of a bullets impact is the quantity of it's impact velocity times it's initial mass minus the exit velocity times it's exit mass divided by the time it took between impact and exit (penetration time).
or F=(Mi*Vi-Me*Ve)/tp

The Work energy applied by this projectile is simply this force times the distance penetrated.
or W.E.=F*Dp

In any case the bullet stops inside the animal the W.E. is equal to the Kinetic Energy regardless of the depth of penetration. So it's pretty academic that K.E. alone is a lousy predictor of penetration. Bullet construction and materials play a huge part in penetration.

W.E. is directly related to the wound volume. The length of this volume is penetration.

A maximum Penetration alone is always eventually lethal. So first and foremost you gotta have penetration to get the job done. But the more Work Energy lost as a result of achieving maximum penetration the more devestating the wound channel will be.

Failsafes are designed to penetrate large, tough, thick-skinned game. They work as advertised on moose and bear. It's no wonder they don't expand on the thin-skinned stuff - they're not designed to. Read the box, it says "large thick-skinned game" right on it.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The springbock wasn't feeding. His head was down possibly coughing up blood or trying to catch his breath. I timed it and the animal went down around 25 seconds after the shot. Not an unusually long time for a lung shot to take affect.

465H&H

I agree. I also agree that the animal was shot just a little far back - remember that for most antelope-type animals the lungs and heart are "compressed" somewhat forward in the chest. That's why so many preach "on-the-shoulder" shots not behind "the-shoulder" as is common on NA game. I have shot several deer and a couple of hogs with 150 gr. Fail-Safes from a .308 Win and have never had a "Failure".

Now we aren't even satisfied with a one-shot, no-tracking kill???? Best get thyself to the TV and watch some more hunting shows where they try to spine "high-on-the-shoulder" shoot everything. That's reality .