Ok, I wish to quantify this post before anyone reads it by saying I have never been hunting in Africa.
On a hunting show yesterday, "Safari Hunter's Journal” [Steve Scott] the subject was lion hunting in South Africa. Some banter back and forth re 'canned hunts', ownership of the animals being hunted, etc and then the hunter goes out with the host and shoots a lion - end of story? Well, not quite.
Where exactly does a 'canned hunt' stop being a canned hunt? Does the size of the enclosure matter; say it is ok to shoot the beastie in a 400 acre enclosure but not in a forty acre pen? If you have 40,000 acres fenced is that now open range hunting?
I really would welcome comments and thoughts here. I will admit to a somewhat jaded opinion as I have been a guide for waterfowl hunters and seen wild claims made for birds that the guide [ME!] killed for the client. And I have to wonder when I see many of the trophies and hear the tales. No, I do not question the guide or PH putting a round into some animal that is dead set on and very capable of taking your life - I would in fact expect this - but then I would be the first to admit the same thing also.
Am I totally off base here or do others share this view?
I have wanted for years to take a buffalo [the North American bison] but have no wish to go out and be told, "There is old George, he is number 38 and that will be your buffalo today." No, thanks, that is not for me.

quote:

the subject was lion hunting in South Africa.

South Africa + Lion hunting pretty much = canned.

TrapperP,

I saw the hunt on versus as well. The only area in SA that might offer a WILD lion would be on property adjoining, or near, Kruger park. There are lions that stray into limpopo from Botswana and maybe, Zim. These animals might then be declared, problem animals.

I will not hunt such a lion. To be honest, cost is an issue for me. However,if this was not the case, I would still have no interest. This issue has been debated quite a lot on AR and most share my disdain for this type hunt.

How are things in the "land of the widget" ? I retired from Dal myself. I enjoy your posts @ the aviation forum.

For those in the know- i.e. old timers, how long has it been since there was free range lion hunting in RSA?

Any info on the approximate times etc and areas would be interesting. I wonder how long it has been since one could go out and "shoot a lion" like the good old days?

Also curious as to other dangerous game, such as bufallo and ele, how long has it been since citizen hunters could go out in South Africa and hunt them as well?
Thanks

Would the lions in Pilanesburg be considered "free range?" If not, why?

I also saw that show on Safari Hunters Journal with Steve Scott. Steve made a very logical arguement on hunting these lions in RSA.

One thing they did not mention is how long have these lions been out living on the land. Where they released last week or last year?

THere was some other show on last week that had 3 picture perfect males with excellent manes all huddled together. Could I expect to see that in the wild.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Would the lions in Pilanesburg be considered "free range?" If not, why?

Habituated would probably be the most accurate description.

Not free range because they can't range freely.

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
For those in the know- i.e. old timers, how long has it been since there was free range lion hunting in RSA?

Any info on the approximate times etc and areas would be interesting. I wonder how long it has been since one could go out and "shoot a lion" like the good old days?

Also curious as to other dangerous game, such as bufallo and ele, how long has it been since citizen hunters could go out in South Africa and hunt them as well?
Thanks

As far as I can remember, not in the 30 years I've been hunting here and probably a helluva lot longer in most areas...... Although I guess there may be a few exceptions to that such as the areas that are opposite Botswana Tuli Block etc.

I wouldn't have a problem with taking a lion on a fenced property under the following conditions. First of all the property would have to be large say over 10.000 acres. Second the lions would have to be there long enough to be able to survive on their own with out supplemental feeding and long enough to form prides of self sustaining animals. But how would the operator guarantee that that is the case?

465H&H

Which raises a question we have never had an answer to in the 100's of posts on this subject: Can a 4 or 5 year old lion be weaned of pet food, hunt naturally and form a pride?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I wouldn't have a problem with taking a lion on a fenced property under the following conditions. First of all the property would have to be large say over 10.000 acres. Second the lions would have to be there long enough to be able to survive on their own with out supplemental feeding and long enough to form prides of self sustaining animals. But how would the operator guarantee that that is the case?

465H&H

465,
What you are saying is exactly what the South African government is considering as the new law for lion hunting in RSA.

So, you would hunt a lion under that scenario?

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I wouldn't have a problem with taking a lion on a fenced property under the following conditions. First of all the property would have to be large say over 10.000 acres. Second the lions would have to be there long enough to be able to survive on their own with out supplemental feeding and long enough to form prides of self sustaining animals. But how would the operator guarantee that that is the case?

465H&H

465,
What you are saying is exactly what the South African government is considering as the new law for lion hunting in RSA.

So, you would hunt a lion under that scenario?

I would certainly consider it, but much would depend upon the cost.

465H&H

465

Touchy subject, probably one I'd be smart to steer clear of...but at every convention I talk to several guys who took lions under, well, let's say "other than true free range" conditions. The actual situation under which "captive reared lions" (which, I think, is an accurate term for the vast majority of South African lions) are taken varies somewhat with the ethics of the outfitter, although the laws are actually fairly clear. I'll be straight: I have no desire to take a lion under such conditions. However, I had my chances back in the '70s and '80s when a lion was still a fairly normal part of a safari bag, not a specialized and costly safari like it is today. Provided the letter of the law regarding habituation, use of vehicles, etc. are adhered to, I have no problem with hunters who go into this knowingly. Hunted on foot, I genuinely believe the captive-reared lions are more dangerous than wild lions (just like our National Park bears). I also believe the captive-reared lions take some pressure off wild lions, plus make a lion available to hunters who cannot afford a lion safari at today's prices. What a shame it would be if the new generation of African hunters couldn't dare to dream of taking a lion? The previous observations are subjective and could be considered invalid. My final justification for something I have no desire to do cannot be argued with: It is believed there are more than 6000 captive-reared lions in South Africa. If the practice of harvesting them is completely curtailed, most of these lions will be euthanized. That seems a horrible waste.
Here's what I have a problem with: Unscrupulous outfitters passing these lions off as something they are not. As long as the laws are obeyed and you have an honest seller and an informed buyer, I have no problem with it. Several years ago the SCI record book took a very bold move in classifying ALL South African lions as "estate," which says all that needs to be said. FYI, most of the guys I talk to who have taken these lions understood what they were doing, and they did it because they wanted the experience of taking a lion, but couldn't afford lion safaris. I'm glad I had my chances years ago, because today I couldn't afford them, either!

Craig, I agree with your analysis. I dont think the answer is to chastise those who choose to hunt lion in SA. Those that I know that have hunted lion in SA would hardly call the hunt "canned." That's not to say that there are some unscrupulous outfitters in SA that do less than ethical things to the lions. But I hardly think this is the majority, or even a large group. Everyone I know who has ever had a poker in this fire knew what they were getting into, and thoroughly enjoyed it...needless to say, at a cheaper price than the other alternative.

Thank you Craig, it was great talking with you in Dallas and I am sorry you couldn't make the Sat eve party, maybe next year. Again I thank you for your logical analysis of lion hunting in RSA.

I liken the "estate" classification to the same type of hunting on many of the estates in England and Scotland and also the hugh Red Stags taken in New Zealand.

Thanks to everyone that replied, and please accept my sincere thanks not just for the replies but for the reasonings and the beliefs you hold.
And as for me, it will have to be, "Thanks, but no, thanks."
Bets regards,

Right on the money, Craig.

Outstanding replies, I too watch the show,and was caught off guard by one of Steves' arugments or statements for the practice.

His statement that by doing so helps ensure the survival of the species ,the same as the rest of the managed specis,by making them worthy{money wise} to the locals.

Never have thought of the argument in those terms, having never been, But is he off base???

Nation wide or only in SA

Craig - A fair analysis. however this is always going to be a gray area amongst various hunters,also one must bare in mind that there still are a bunch of lying, cheating unscrupulous and down right dodgy Outfitters and PH's operating in the canned lion industry in South Africa - who are not interested in trying to make this kind of hunt as "fair chase" as possible !
I agree that the client MUST be fully informed about what he/she is getting into - as always the supply is driven by the demand - and South African "ranched lion hunting"cannot be considered as real hunting !
Unfortunately I have also heard rumours of these captive bred lions from South Africa being drugged and flown/transported across the borders into neighbouring countries and released into big game areas for clients to hunt ! I presume that this is happening due to the SA Governments anticipated clamp down on canned lion hunting - so maybe the breeders are looking for another angle to sell their product !
Hell I could be opening a can of worms here - but as the saying goes - "where there is smoke, there is fire !

Well said, Craig. Hopefully we can finally put this subject to rest!

Since the SA high court ruling last year, all lions hunted in SA have to be living in a large area (can't remember the size) and be self sustaining for a minimum of two years.

Therefore technically, for 2 years from the date of the ruling, (with the exception of areas that adjoin KNP etc) virtually no lions should/could have been legally taken in SA.

As far as the general principles of hunting these animals is concerned, I don't mind admitting I have an immense problem with the shooting of drugged/freshly released lions etc but I guess IF (note the big IF) they have been in a large area for 2 years or more before being ethically hunted and that the client had been made aware of the situation, that would be acceptable to me....... the problem is, how does one ascertain that this is truly the case? The fact is the cops here can't police the roads here properly, so it's not very likely they can police the lion breeders.

We must also accept that finances would make that scenario somewhat questionable. If you assume that a self sustaining lion kills and eats animals to the the value of just US$500 a week and if they develop a taste for expensive animals such as nyala or sable etc, it's gonna be a whole lot more than that.... but for now, let's work on the figure of just US$500 a week. 2 years = 104 weeks @ US$500 a week = US$52K dollars just to feed the animal for the legally required period.

Then add on all the ancillary costs such as security and possible veterinary bills (and a lot more) of having him there for that period and of course a profit margin and I'd guess you soon come to a trophy fee in the region of US$70K+. (At today's prices!) My guess is that it's not very likely many people could afford or be willing to pay such a price.

Then we have the question of what to do with the current captive population? Well that's a good question. As Craig says, it would be a pity to put them down but frankly, I don't see much alternative because even if it were possible to introduce them into the wild populalation, it would kill more than it introduced because of the way the pride dynamics work.

As for the captive bred lions taking pressure off of the wild population. I can't see how that works because the two things are not related. It's not as though everyone who would have hunted a captive bred lion would go off and shoot a wild one instead, because they're a quotad (is that a word?) species in most if not all African countries.

As I see it, even if the practice of breeding lions in captivity were banned completely throughout Africa immediatly, I see no reason why it would impact the wild lion populations.

(IMO) If we want to increase the numbers of wild lions we need to manage them properly and find a way to reduce human encroachment.

Mark,

Check this out: http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

Are we never learning?

“Canned hunting” we associate ourselves with this practice if we talk about canned hunting this is wrong hunting and canned does not go together as a hunter we should call it canned shooting, collecting, harvesting or whatever you fancy but never Hunting! In fact we should object and protest if anyone uses the phrase canned hunt because it nothing to with hunting or hunters!

Make it clear to the public that Hunters are hunting, and do not shoot fish in a barrel!