So a scenario- client books a hunt but has to understandably cancel due to a natural disaster that affects his business. The cancellation is a week or so before the start of the hunt.

Operator/ Ph understands the situation and has offered to send all the money back for his safari which he will do.

However he does ask that if there is travel insurance that it will at least cover the Ph daily rates $250/day x 7 days as , considering the short time there is NO way he will find a hunt to replace it.

However if there was no travel insurance would you request the full amount back or would you request the full amount back less PH fees?

If I was the hunter and you offered back the costs... if I didn't have insurance (I usually don't get it as there are so many exclusions) I would gladly pay the $250 a day as that's a heck of a lot better than eating the whole cost as I fully would expect to.

.

If it were you and I, Buzz, you know there would be another hunt / booking and bigger Cubans around the corner !

And on a serious note, as the client I would be ok on the day fees or part thereof if you couldn't sell it.

It's situations like this that can lead to long term repeat clients I suppose.

Cheers

.

If this fellow was in hurricane Irma...he may be financially strapped.

That said...the PH lives in Hurricane Bob and he may be as well.

If "I" was the outfitter...in this situation...I would pay the PH myself...and likely refund all the money to the hunter...albeit asking if he wanted to pay the PH. I would be OK with his decision.

I think you asking for Trip Insurance money is acceptable as well.

And if I were the hunter and knowing how it is for PHs...I would pay the PH 'if able.'

One would have to know the EXACT whole situation for the hunter in this situation.

Exactly what Lane said. Reasonable people on all sides and everyone remains friends and all want to do business again.$1750 for the PH daily rate is about the same as coach airfare from the states currently. If the hunter has trip insurance and all he is out is $1750, he should think that is very reasonable and will likely be welcomed for another trip.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
If this fellow was in hurricane Irma...he may be financially strapped.

That said...the PH lives in Hurricane Bob and he may be as well.

If "I" was the outfitter...in this situation...I would pay the PH myself...and likely refund all the money to the hunter...albeit asking if he wanted to pay the PH. I would be OK with his decision.

I think you asking for Trip Insurance money is acceptable as well.

And if I were the hunter and knowing how it is for PHs...I would pay the PH 'if able.'

One would have to know the EXACT whole situation for the hunter in this situation.

+1. I think Lane's suggestion is quite reasonable.

If you can afford the safari, and you are lucky enough to work with a PH that is going to send you money back, then I think 1750 is an easy decision. Right thing to do.

Both parties should follow the terms found within the hunting agreement. Most every agreement contemplates both early and late termination by the client. If a client cancels regardless of reason within two weeks of the hunt, at a minimum he pays the daily rate. There may be some wiggle room on the permit fees for dangerous game as many of these are paid in advance by the operator. However, it seems the common practice by many operators to routinely sell more DG hunts than they have permits for, so there may be some allowances granted by the operator if they are feeling especially magnanimous.

quote:

Originally posted by 10generation:
If you can afford the safari, and you are lucky enough to work with a PH that is going to send you money back, then I think 1750 is an easy decision. Right thing to do.

This is how I see it, too.

I had a situation this year where I vouched for someone. Put up his deposit and 3 weeks prior to our 2 x 2 trip he backed out. I forfeited the deposit and paid the daily rates.

Never got reimbursed.

It was still the right thing to do.

Jeff

Thankyou folks for the replies and I find it interesting seeing the opinions from the "other side" as such- all constructive.

I have to say Lane though the thought that the "operator" should pay the client back in full AND pay the PH his daily fees seems a little rough!

Why should the operator be out of pocket on Ph fees as well as costs incurred in permits etc as well as being disadvantaged been so late in the season where he is unlikely to resell the hunt. Believe it of not, there are not many operators that I know that over sell quotas.

In this case another point that I intentionally did not make is that the "operator" bought bags on auction and it is not refundable to Parks and has been paid in full!!!

As in many cases the "client" is a mate of the "operator" and will be refunded in full due to the fact that it really was out of his control and the operator looks forward to a hunt in the future! Thanks for the comments- Buzz

Buzz, if you don't mind me asking, don't you cover this in your hunting contract?

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Thankyou folks for the replies and I find it interesting seeing the opinions from the "other side" as such- all constructive.


Why should the operator be out of pocket on Ph fees as well as costs incurred in permits etc as well as being disadvantaged been so late in the season where he is unlikely to resell the hunt. Believe it of not, there are not many operators that I know that over sell quotas.
Thanks for the comments- Buzz

Buzz's comment addresses one aspect I had not previously thought about; that being the lateness in the season that this occurred. It's a tough situation for both sides, however it's exacerbated it seems due to when it occurred. While I don't believe any contract should have a clause dealing with the time of year or season, it does strike me that had this occurred in the March-May period, this wouldn't be as stressful as there'd be time to re-sell the hunt and get right financially.

Tough situation, glad they seem to have worked it out amicably instead of getting into a pissing match.

DLS- all very amicable thanks. A loss to us but I hope a future booking will come of it.

OPUS1- yes as per contract 3 months cancellation for any reason results in zero refund. It is a standard safari contract and there are reasons for this- i.e. liscences ,camps roads, taxes etc etc etc.

The issue I had was that it was an "act of Nature" that result in him canceling - it was out of his control.

Anyway all good thanks Folks!

It is a REAL GOOD idea to take out cancellation insurance. Although i don't know if acts of God would be covered!

It's fun for a client but it's the outfitters livelihood which comes in to play here. I don't think many clients would be happy if the outfitter called them a few days before his safari and told him he could not do his hunt even if it was a valid reason!!!

Each case is different, had a case of a family death, returned clients deposit..Had a case wherein the wife put her foot down, and said Safari was too dangerous and told the client he couldn't go, end of story, so he backed out at the last minute, We kept his deposit and he didn't have a problem with it...Several times it was worked out for the client to come and hunt the following year..Common since should be the determination..and you can't please everyone, all you can do is try..

If I was the client I would live by my contract, which probably says I forfeit the daily rate. I think you are being extremely generous asking that the client only cover your PH.

I had to cancel/postpone hunts a couple times over the past few years due to some health challenges I continue fighting. Both times the Outfitter/PH was very understanding and even offered a refund. I made it clear that I did not want any refund and would be coming as soon as I was able...and I did. Is that a normal practice for most outfitters/PH's or have I just been lucky?

Safe shooting.............LL

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Thankyou folks for the replies and I find it interesting seeing the opinions from the "other side" as such- all constructive.

I have to say Lane though the thought that the "operator" should pay the client back in full AND pay the PH his daily fees seems a little rough!

Why should the operator be out of pocket on Ph fees as well as costs incurred in permits etc as well as being disadvantaged been so late in the season where he is unlikely to resell the hunt. Believe it of not, there are not many operators that I know that over sell quotas.

In this case another point that I intentionally did not make is that the "operator" bought bags on auction and it is not refundable to Parks and has been paid in full!!!

As in many cases the "client" is a mate of the "operator" and will be refunded in full due to the fact that it really was out of his control and the operator looks forward to a hunt in the future! Thanks for the comments- Buzz

Buzz,
That is just how I run my business. I have clients cancel $10K-$20K procedures not uncommonly...at the last minute (sometimes literally the last minute). I also employ a fair amount of subcontract professionals. When I organize a procedure...I pay all of my help/professionals who irreparably change there schedules to do my organized work. Obviously...I try to hold that to a minimum but if I told a professional to show up on a certain day and he changed his/her schedule on my word...I honor my word to that professional. By doing that I am always able to get the best help which translates into turning out the best results...which translates to a good reputation...which translates to plenty of high quality work...which translates to $$$.

If I had a client from Florida (which I have many) which opted out on having a $20K procedure done on their horse (happens not uncommonly) due to having a hurricane wreck their lives...I would not think twice about it and pay all those involved irreparably on my end.

I actually have rich clients that do it not uncommonly just because they change their minds...decide not pay for the girlfriend’s horse. Those I may haggle with to pay some set-up costs. If they had insurance to cover the cancellation (which doesn’t exist in my industry)...I would certainly ask for costs to be covered out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
If I was the client I would live by my contract, which probably says I forfeit the daily rate. I think you are being extremely generous asking that the client only cover your PH.

Yup.

Like Saeed always says (except in one instance in his case)...in all the times I have gone...I have never had a contract and I have also never had a problem. I know many will say I am stupid...but when I have to start contracting my hunts...I promise I will never go again.

If I had a tornado blow away my home or hospital (quite possible where I live) and had to cancel a hunt...there would be no asking for money to pay the PH...albeit I might choose to...if I were able.

One more point I would make is it is much more likely a person has insurance for whatever natural disaster (like a hurricane) than they will have travel insurance that covers most of the reasons that most of us would cancel a high buck safari over. While not me personally, too many friends and family have found the travel insurance not worth the paper the policy was written on.

The agents commission is near as I can tell the biggest reason it is encouraged. Sorry to be so negative, but to pay 10% of trip costs to insure the small chance of a covered event is not worth it imo.