Howdy all.

I recently bought a Blaser S2 double rifle in .470 Nitro Express. I bought several boxes of A-Square 500 grain solids and Federal 500 grain Trophy Bonded Bearclaws.

The Federal chambers and fires without any problem; but I can't close the action with the A-Square ammunition. This is my first double rifle and I'm at a loss. So is the dealer I bought the rifle from.

Any ideas as to what I'm seeing here or advice? Thanks.

A-Square made a batch of ammo for the CZ Safari Classics in .404 Jeffery, .450 Rigby, and .505 Gibbs.

None of it would fit in any of the three rifles it was meant for, and the price for the junk ammo was exorbitant. I could not even close the bolt on a single cartridge of A-Square ammo of the 20 rounds I tried in .505 Gibbs. Ditto several other .404 Jeffery and .450 Rigby cartridges in their intended rifles.

Dealer I know sent all of his back. Later A-Square made another batch. This ammo now chambers in the CZ made rifles.

I do not know all the specifics, but neither CZ nor A-Square has been forthcoming in an explanation.

Both of their reputations would be helped if they would only explain the snafu to the public.

I avoid all A-Square ammo, even though they are based in my neck of the woods.

Shame.

BTW, one brass maker told me there was an occurrence of bad .505 Gibbs ammo that went "click" instead of "boom" on a buffalo safari, like " ...click ... click ... click ... Run!"

Sniveling client hunter went running to a lawyer because the PH had to save his bacon. Such a hunter should have tested his ammo AND rifle thoroughly before hand.

You are best sticking to Federal factory ammo or loading your own, using, Federal, Norma, or old BELL brass.

My handloads are very superior to the Federal factory stuff in uniformity and accuracy.

Federal uses about 87 to 89 grains of RL-15 and no filler, but they use the hotter F216 primer to achieve a semblance of uniform ignition with all that air space in the case.

Better to use a filler with RL-15, or slow powder with a full case (such as THE GEORGE HOFFMAN MEMORIAL LOAD of 108 to 110 grains of H4831SC), and the F215 or GM215M primer or equivalent.

Best bullets for a .470 NE DR:

Softs:
1. 500 grain Woodleigh Weldcore soft point
or
2. North Fork 500 grain CUP POINT universal soft-solid

Solids:
1. North Fork 500 grain FP solid
or
2. GSC 500 grain FN solid

If you must stick to factory ammo, use the Federal TBSH solid and the Woodleigh soft.

If you do not want to reload, buy your ammo from Superior Ammunition. They will sell you almost any caliber and any bullet you want. Their ammo is first class and only a little more expensive than the manufacturers. You have probably seen a lot of praise for the North Fork bullets. Superior will load them for you. Save your brass and send it back and they will reload it.

Superior Ammunition produced loads with North Fork Cup Point (soft) and FP (solid) bullets would be a great idea.

My best loads use those two 500 grain bullets with 109 grains of H4831SC.

Paul,
You have now experienced the "Quality Control" of A Square! For years now A Square has been promsing to "Get it or Make it Right". They still can't do it!

As posted above just stick with Federal or if you reload, get some quality brass some place that doesn't have A Square stamped on it.

Paul:

A bunch of us double rifle owners are getting together next month (Aug 11 to 13) to hunt hogs and shoot double rifles in Texas.

You will learn A LOT about doubles during the weekend.

If you are interested in information about it, shoot me a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Smith:
The Federal chambers and fires without any problem; but I can't close the action with the A-Square ammunition. This is my first double rifle and I'm at a loss. So is the dealer I bought the rifle from.

Any ideas as to what I'm seeing here or advice? Thanks.

If you have a set of calipers, check the rim diameter and thickness of the A-square brass as compared to the federal.

If you do not have calipers handy try this.
Take the bbls off the frame.
Place an A Square case rim in the rim recess base first, ie backwards to see if the rim diameter will fit in the recess. If not that is your problem, rim diameter is too big.
If it fits then insert the round in the bbls bullet first and see if the back of the case is flush with the bbls. If it does not go in all the way the rim could be too thick, the case diameter could be too large or the bullet could be touching the rifling.

This may or may not be A-Square's fault. Everybody and their dog are making rifles in 470. There are variations in chambers and cartridge cases depneding on who is making them.

In my 470, Kynoch ammo would not allow the action to close. Similar to your problem, Federal ammo was fine.

Conclusion: Use Federal ammo!

Or let's sue somebody.

I had a similar problem with my Heym and some handloads. The problem was not the brass but the bullet. The shape of the bullet (Barnes XLC) was such that it would not allow the shell to drop all the way into the chamber, regardless of how deeply I seated the bullet. Pulled the Barnes and put a Woodleigh on, bingo, right back into the chamber. So do not discount the possibility that it is the bullet. (In retrospect, glad the Barnes did not work since there are serious issues with shooting a monometal in a double. The double rifle god was looking out for me!)

Mike

Paul Smith - the reason I suggested that you check the rim diameter and thickness with calipers (450's method works too) is not to imply that A-Square did anything wrong.

Some brass mfgs run on the upper end of standard specs. Combine that with a chamber reamer that may be on the lower end of spec and the gun might not close.

I saw this last week with a client's gun. Federal dropped in fine, other brand of brass wouldn't. I did a chamber cast to double check and finally found (what I should have checked first) the scenario described above. It was a difference of couple of thousandths in rim diameter that kept the gun from closing. This can also happen with rim thickness.

All good points and suggestions.

My parallel situation withe A-Square .505 Gibbs ammo in the rifle by CZ: I dissassembled a few rounds and resized them with RCBS dies. I reloaded the same components (primer was still same, same powder charge, same A-Square solid bullet). The ammo would then chamber and fire. Jamison brass worked fine in handloads.

Some say the CZ's are too tight in the chamber. Some say the A-Square loaded ammo was oversize. Probably some of both.

My Ruger .416 Rigby bolt action would not chamber some older 400 grain Swift A-Frames when the bullets were seated to the crimping groove. The Ruger throat was too short to accommodate the full diameter nose portion of that bullet baseward of the ogive. Seating the bullet deeper allowed it to chamber.

With the rimmed cartridge in a double, you have all these possibilities plus the rim diameter and rim thickness possibilities.

The true driving banded bullets of North Fork and GSC (FP, CP, and FN) are monometal copper and utterly safe in all doubles, as would be the Woodleigh soft.

The Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solid has a brass shell around a lead core, and the great plus of a flat nosed meplat. This is an alternate solid to use until you get the GSC or North Fork.

The old Barnes Original softs are safe for plinking with a DR, but are not bonded core and hence loose jackets too easily on big game. A-Square Lion Load and Dead Tough would be in the same class.

TB Bear Claw soft: too hard on DR (solid shank)
North Fork grooved SP: too hard on DR (solid shank)

Barnes XLC, X, TSX, "Banded Solid" and old brass solid: too hard on DR (solid shanks and +/- bands that are not true stress relieving driving bands)

A-Square Monolithic solid: too hard on DR

GSC HV: the stress relieving true driving bands make it safe in a DR, but such an aerodynamic shape and long length may cause POI differences for the fixed regulation, and is kind of silly in a DR used mainly within 100 meters.

I cannot imagine owning and shooting a DR unless I could load my own for it, which allows one the capability of unloading and trouble shooting problematic factory loads.

Thank you all for the great information, most appreciated!

It might be appropriate here to mention Butch Searcy's preffered load for his 470 Nitro double rifles.

2250 fps isnt it?

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
All good points and suggestions.

M
Some say the CZ's are too tight in the chamber. Some say the A-Square loaded ammo was oversize. Probably some of both.

That will be the problem!

In europe Blaser is known for smooth chambering!

But A-Square is known for lousy but very expensive crap...


Buy Federal TBBC or Romey and it will work i think.