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I have just recieved my Atcheson's trip catalog, and I just cannot believe the prices on some of these hunts. Tanzania, Botswana, and Zambia are close to $2,000 per day, with all sorts of extra fee's as extra. With trophy fees and air charter, a 3week hunt can cost close to $100,000 when all is said and done. My entire Namibian safari isn't even going to cost me $6,000 total!! Maybe I'm showing what white trash I am, but, how many of you out there are going on these kinds of hunts? If you are God bless, but damm, that's unbelievable Wolf

P'raps you'd better take a look at my website then. I offer a good quality hunt and unbeatable back up service at a fair price!!!

More seriously though, there has always been an element of snobbery in the safari business and some clients book with certain companies just to be able to say that they've hunted with that particular comany.....strikes me a bit silly, but it's their money and they can waste it any way they like!

Wolfgar,

I'm aparently like you, on a budget when it comes to hunting.
Who are hunting with in Namibia?
Who did you book your hunt through?
I am currently in the process of planning a hunt to Namibia, would appreciate any info.

Thanks, Dave

You should be able to buy Zimbabwe for that kind of money.

Nice one Gringo!



Although in their defence, some hunts have to be very expensive. don't forget that in some places every can of beer, every screw and every consumable item has to got into camp by plane or a drive that you would measure in day's rather than hours or miles. Add on the horrific government fees and costs do quickly add up. Limited quotas can also mean high prices. Botswana for example has a huge overpopulation of Elephants yet each concession area only has 5 Bulls on quota..... that means that those 5 hunts have to pay most of the costs & profit margins for the year.

If anybody is interested in a "budget" hunt I have something to offer: 4 days/5 nights hunting three non-trophy animals (kudu and impala) in the RSA for under 1500E. The hunt can be prolonged and additional animals added to a certain degree. This is a 3:1 hunt, the camp is not five star but a solid three. I�ve hunted with this firm twice and I�ve been very satisfied.

If anyone wants details send me a PM.

PS I�ll soon be setting up my own homepage for booking etc. and I have some good packages on offer or send me your budget and we�ll start from there. Hunts can be done in the RSA, Mozambique, Botswana or Zambia.

Not trying to be snobbish, or compete with anyone, but that is why we have persued other avenues when we lost our Zim concession last year. We have a 21 day hunt including day fees, air charter, all the "extras," etc. The only thing we don't include is the usual, airfare to RSA, taxidermy and shipping of trophies, etc. I can do 4 of the big 5 for just under $50,000. Rhino is the leave out-I just can't get good prices. The elephant will go 45-50lb on average and the buff will be in the 40"-45" range if you work for it. Not to step on toes, but I want to give people with more realistic bank accounts a chance for these hunts too. I priced out the big five years ago and was quoted over $130,000. Fifty grand is still a bunch, but it's a damn site better than a buck thirty!

Gentlemen,

The way it looks, Tanzania is about 40% higher in price than Zimbabwe.

That is how my own calculations work, taking into cosideration the animals hunted, and the number of people on the hunt.

Alf, ain't that the truth...... things are still very expensive there. But the thing that ALWAYS irritates the hell out of me is that despite paying all that money, government regulations still don't allow the hunter to come in the day before his hunt commences unless he pays an additional days conservation fees!



I appreciate that Tanzania has some of the best True Wilderness Areas in the world and the hunting is bloody good...... but that rule really upsets me.

ALF,

I believe the Zimbabwe model in hunting is best.

One has to agree on a daily fee, plus one pays for all the animals that are shot.

That is it.

There is none of this nonsense of daily fees for being out on the bush, very expensive hunting licences, charges for rifles, and the list just goes on.

I think that I can cut that price just about in half in Tanzania...Give me an email or a phyical address and I will send some brochures...Use Judge G and Saeed for references. here or AR and I have a bunch more for your convience..

Take note that our company names sound simuliar but are spelled differently!!

That said, Atchison hunting is a very good, highly respected organization....

Supply and demand.

If there is a demand for the product, the market will set the price. If no one wanted that level of hunt, they would disappear like the Yugo.

Wolfgar:

There's an old expression: " You get what you pay for". Of course, there are cheaper hunts (and I notice that already on this thread that the cheapo outfitters will offer you a better "deal")

Now think about this - First and foremost - "expensive" outfitters charge so much because they paid top dollar to the country they are in to get a concession in an area where there are lots of animals that you want to hunt - thereby increasing your chances of a trophy. This is a dirty little secret that the agents don't want to talk about. Want to go on a $500 a day hunt for buff where the last buff in the concession spends his days near the National game park where he spends the night? OK, I'm exaggerating - but not too much. Nextly, what sort of equipment does the outfitter have? In the US we know the expression " one truck contractor". There's a lot of them in Africa. So what? You won't say "So what?" so calmly when the one truck in camp breaks down on your 7 day buff hunt. Like to eat, at least half way decently- even if you're used to pork and beans in a deer camp? You won't be so tolerant in a tropical climate after spending hours in the field. Well, it costs money to get vegetables in to your camp and cuts of fresh meat (please, don't tell me about camp meat, I was shooting so many impala that I felt like a poacher even if I paid trophy fees and I was on a first class hunt) You need first class people to dress out your trophies, have people supervise their care and shipment. You need people who are first class beginning with the camp staff. This all costs money. If you find this excessive anyway, I have to say I don't. I think an outfitter charging up to $15000 to hunt a moose is overcharging - when I reflect that one of the locals drives out on a dirt road, parks and walks into the brush and takes a moose between eating his breakfast at home and getting in for supper. You get what you pay for. Want to go to africa and hunt DG? It isn't cheap. (Whatever figure you read, add 30% at a minimum)

i forgot to add what may be the most important cost factor of all - who did the outfitter hire as your PH? I would certainly assume that a PH of widespread good reputation "can write his own ticket" so that the outfitter also has that added expense. Of course, if you don't think the PH has anything to do with preserving your hide, you can disregard this cost factor.

I have seen legitimate Tanzania 21 day hunts for $1300 to $2500 per day. Probably the biggest difference is quality of the concession, with trophy lion in abundance pushing the cost up very fast. Differences in newness of equipment, quality of camp and reputation of PH also affect price. But no matter how you slice it, a 21 day safari in Tanzania is going to cost $50K.

I suppose you could look at the Mercedes Benz website and feel upset that some of their cars cost $120K when perfectly functional cars are available from other makers for $20K. If the $20K car is more suitable for you, then that is what you should buy.

Hello Gerald,
You have a very valid point, however, it is totally irrelevant in my situation. I will never be able to afford a top-shelf hunt,so for me it's a "bargin" hunt or NO hunt. The "save more" attitude will not work for me, since I can never justify spending so much money with a family and all.
I don't need to be pampered and waited on, I just want an honest hunt, and to be fed edible food. I will eat game meat, or any meat for that matter, so long as I'm there.
I really do think that some of these outfitters are out of their minds with the prices that they are charging, but I guess people are paying it so why not I guess.
$2,000 daily fee is unbelievable, I don't care what they are feeding you! Sorry Gerald, this is not directed at you...I started out replying to you and went off on a rant!!
Wolf

Sorry, but I'm not a "cheapo" outfitter, nor is Shakari or Atkinson. I don't pay the premium concession leases and Mozambique doesn't charge the ridiculous governtment fees that Tanzania does, so I can offer the hunt for what it really costs, not what the government forces me to charge for. Simply put, I don't want to hunt in an area that costs me more a day in fees than I get for normal day rates. These are free range hunts, not canned or on fenced concessions and they go by the old Zim model. Not all of us are fly by night, "one truck" companies, we just can and do offer lower priced alternatives to $2500 per day hunts. If I wanted to cater only to Texas oil millionaires then I'm sure I would be booking in the prime areas in Tanz. I want to give real folks with real jobs and real bank accounts a chance at real hunting. Someone can come hunt an elephant with me for a $12,000 trophy fee on a 45 to 50 lb animal. Try that in tanz with only paying $800 per day in day fees. It can't be done. Granted, Mozambique is not Tanzania. A guy who has saved his entire life for one hunt and has $30,000 to spend doesn't have a chance to hunt Tanz for a tusker. Period. If I can fulfill his dream, I will. Just because some of us are inexpensive, never make the mistake that we are cheap. There are cheapos out there, but in the end, the only thing we have to fall back on is our names. If we cheapen ourselves and ruin our names, we wouldn't be around for so long. Never make the mistake in this industry that you get what you pay for, either. Some of the best stories, friendships, and experiences come out of us "cheap" outfitters. Just because you can spend $100,000 for a hunt, it doesn't mean you are going to get $100,000 worth of hunting. I get many repeat American and European clients, so I must be doing something right. Ray gets a bunch of the same people booking year after year, as does Steve. I guess they are doing something right as well.
Sorry for the rant, but I felt a bit insulted.
Rob

Woilf In some ways I am right with you. I cannot fathom spending twice my son's college tuition at a private school for one of my little hunting trips. If you got money to burn have a nice time but I am just not there. I still worry about next month's payroll. Fortunately I have no desire to shoot a lion or an elephant. Now buffalo is another story. I have trouble with old helmet head. One day maybe but it will be a while. Maybe never for discretionary income to go for the 21 day classic safari. It seems to be like land prices. 40 years ago land was dirt cheap. Wages were low. You just couldn't come up with the money. Now land is high and it is still just out of reach. I think I'll hunt now and buy land later. Good hunting. "D"

Wolfgar,

East African hunts are very expensive. It's hard for the average guy to come up with the money to make the 21 or 28 day Tanzania hunt become a reality. I think about this fact on a daily basis! Many a day I ask myself why the hell I became a software engineer rather than choose a much more lucrative career...! I am very seriously thinking of leaving that industry to start my own busines.

Another way to consider the costs of Africa is to think about the total number and variety of animals you can take on a month long hunt. I would think 30+ animals maybe more are possible in a month of hunting with a good PH in good areas. Take that number and figure what the cost of 30+ guided hunts for a variety of different animals all across the US and Canada would cost. Many times the East African Safari price I would think. The average Montana whitetail hunt is around $2500.00 often approaching $3000.00. Start thinking about sheep, big bears, elk, moose and the skys the limit.

Despite the price there is no place I would rather hunt than Tanzania.

Regards,
Dave

Hmag, great post, I'm with you 100% I think alot of the hype of hunting with a guy like Robin Hurt (no slight to Robin)for some of these rich guy's is to brag to their buddy's that " Yea,I hunted with Robin Hurt", just like "I belong to such and such country club" Whatever works for you, I guess. Myself, if I could afford Tanzania I would go in a minute, but I know that I never will, so I'll take a lesser know PH any time rather than stay home. Wolf

David,

Seems to me that anyone on a month long safari would want to take as many of the Big 4 as possible. That requires specialized hunting techniques and time, I've been told. However, it might be a little hard to take 30+ species on the trip.

Wish I had that problem.

Its funny with all these top class staff in these over priced camps that excel at butchering meat for the table, skinning, services etc that they still all get paid so badly that they outfitter often pressures clients to pay a big "tip" so the poor buggers have a decent living. In whose pocket does the difference go?



I've stayed in camps that had all the luxury I needed or wanted and I know these costthe outfitter less than $175 a day including a profit margin. Granted they weren't remote camps but the wages were also a hell of a lot more too. What do the super-luxury camps do, wash your clothes twice a day? I've had 5 star class meals and super waiter service in the $150 a day camp.



Myself I doubt I would ever be able to pay $50G for a 21 day safari unless I start to grow those funny cash crops.





PS Lets say the outfitter charging $2000 a day for 21 days has thirty staff and lets be generous, he pays them an average of $3 per day (maybe only $1 a day). That's $60 from the $2000. Lets say he pays a good PH about $50,000 for a season and say that is around $2000 a week, Lets call that $290 a day, probably too high. But usually the PH has to supply and maintain their own vehicle. They do get fuel supplied though. That's around $350 from the $2000 so far for all the wages. Hell how do they survive on a mere US$1650 a day to cover ALL those other costs? Of course the trophy fees are on top of all this and usually just as inflated.



But if paying through the nose makes some people feel better and gives better bragging rights, please go ahead.

Seems like prices on everything are going up FAST. Thats a different topic all together.

Saeed is correct the Zim model is the best just add up the days and count the game shot finished. Perhaps those days are finished too.

Guys,

Some good posts here from both sides of the fence, and one of the many things I appreciate about this forum is the chance to gain new insight into all points of view.

I know that Hhmag, Ray & I (and indeed other agents & outfitters who post on the forum) all try to offer a selection of prices, from less expensive plains game hunts up to the more expensive DG hunts. Personally when it comes to any hunt, but especially the DG hunts in TWA's I try to offer a quality hunting operation (which is vitally important) at a middle of the road price. I want the hunting to be as good as possible and the best in the area. I want camps that are comfortable, but not OTT and needlessly expensive. But remember any True Wilderness hunting Area is going to cost a lot of money. Building roads and airstrips, establishing camps, maintaining a small fleet of vehicles and bringing supplies 100s of miles and paying high numbers of staff all cost money. That's before you take into consideration the cost of getting the concession and paying all the Government fees. I try not to post too many prices as I feel it's abusing Saeed's hospitality and if anyone is seriously (or otherwise) interested they can always go to my website to check on prices.....it's all there. However a 1x1 - 21 day safari in Tanzania with me won't cost upwards of US$100,000 or anywhere near it.

But the problem with this industry is that there are always some people who have a couple of African hunts and then decide they're an instant expert. They suddenly decide to become what they laughingly call an agent and then the guys who book with them very often either get burned or get such bad service they never want to come to Africa again.

Any client flying umpteen thousands of miles and spending even a few thousand dollars deserves to get good customer service. He or she should be told (by thir outfitter or agent) all the answers to their questions before they leave their front door..... but service like this needs to be financed and anyone offering African hunting should be doing this for the clients. It's the fly by the seat of their pants agents and outfitters who don't and can't do this......Let's face it guys, how many posts do you see on this forum where people are asking about what visas do I need, how do I import my rifles, what travellers checks, what injections, what CITES licences etc etc...... the list is endless. A good agent or outfitter should be telling the client all this before the client knows he needs to ask the question.

All of us in the industry need to appreciate that any African safari is a huge financial outlay for the average client and respond accordingly, but many do not. All clients need to appreciate that no-one except the very biggest of names is getting rich from the safari industry and if they want a good African hunting experience they won't get it for bargain basement prices or from an agent who's hunted here just a few times.

At the end of the day, if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is and although you don't always get what you pay for, you sure as hell never get what you don't pay for.

I hear what you guys say. I am a South African Outfitter and are not ashame of any of the accommodation and meals I offer my clients. Unfortunately the way we operate is that we hunt on privately owned land (Concessions)and the owners charge us sometimes rediculous rates. I have worked it out many times and at present my cost per day including camp staff, vehicle fuel, skinners and accommodation and fuel is $316.00 per person per day no profit margin on top.

You must realise costs are high!

And still I offer package deals which I think is hell of a bargain to anyone.

Regards

Louis
Zingeli Safaris

Hey Louis,

Welcome to the forum....... this exchange rate's a bastard isn't it?

Louis, is the below your website? If so, it is not working at least for me.

http://www.zingeli.co.za/

Hello Louis,

Welcome to the forum. Glad to see you join us.

Walter send his regards.

Hey Louis!
Welcome to the forum! We know many of the same folks!
HHMAG

Hi Louis

The cost rate I named was from an South Africa camp on private property. Of course there must be large differences in the cost rates of different properties. But I assume you aren't charging $2000 a day either!

One thing that surprised me is how many middlemen are sometimes involved. One might own the property. Another might have rights to hunt the property. He establishes a camp. Others book the camp and conduct hunts there. Sometimes other outfitters book a week or two or a few hunts and hunt there too. Then there are agents who spin a yarn and collect the money and interest usually finishes there. Everyone gets a piece of the action along the way and the clients pays for the lot.

What happened to the days when a client could deal direct with the landowner or primary lease holder who ran his own safaris. Or was this just a fantasy?



Shakari is 100% right. I can't believe the lack of information some outfitters give out. Some don't even have a basic printed brochure in these days of PCs and cheapo printers and even more so attached files to emails. If an outfitter in a particular country books a dozen (or three dozen) hunts a year. How can they NOT know what medicines, travel requirements, procedures, licences etc are all required and tell the client when booking!

I would dearly love to hunt Tanzania, but because of cost, it is unlikely. The rub is that the two animals I especially want require 21 days (Lesser Kudu & Gerenek). I don't need Tanzania for a buff; Zimbabwe worked fine. Elephant is not likely in my future anywhere, let alone Tanzania, and I have no interest in Lion or Leapord, yet at best, to get the 2 animals I'm really interested in--oh, there are other plains game that I'd love from there, such as the gazelles, etc,--I would have to book a hugely expensive 21 day hunt. It bugs me, but I guess I live with it, and I reckon I'll croak with no Gerenek or Lesser Kudu, because I simply cannot afford a 21 day Tanzania safari, well, unless I were to suspend all other hunting for 5 or 6 years, which I ain't gonna do.

Shakari--excuse me for using your first name, but it's all I know--you make an excellent point about hunters not being properly supplied with info. I nearly always use a booking agent, and he informs me of everything, often before I think to ask about it.

Hi Arts,

As long as I get called for dinner I don't care what else I'm called...... I'll answer to anything. Steve, Shakari or even Robbo!

It's very common for clients to tell us how impressed they are with the information we provide them with before, during and after the hunt. but it's a sad reflection on the industry as a whole that almost no other agents or outfitters do the same thing.

I even had a client hunt with us last year who told me that he had a previous hunt with another company and he only found out 24 hours before he left home that he was being collected from Richards Bay and not Jo'burg airport as was stated on his contract! It wasn't a cheap hunt he'd booked either...... it was for a Rhino!!!

Arts, not to step on anybody's paws here in regards to Tanzania, but if you are truly interested in Lesser Kudu and Gerenuk and not the cats, they can be hunted on a 15-day license in the Omo concession of Ethiopia at reasonable day rates, through Ethiopian Rift Safaris. Grants Gazelle can also be hunted, and according to Rich they have been 100% on all three. Rich Elliot can provide the info: mtnyala@hotmail.com. I believe he is in Ethiopia now.

IMO, it is not necessary to spend $1500-$2500/day if one is not interested in hunting the cats and/or elephant. $800-$1200/day can get one a great hunt for specialized and desirable species in any number of countries, many of which can be hunted together on the same 7-14 day hunt, with other game unique to that area. Examples are: Roan & Sable; Sitatunga + 3-types of Lechwe + Puku; Nyala + Bushpig + Suni; Croc + Hippo; Thompson's + Grants Gazelle's; etc. Each hunt offers a different experience and style, in a different part of Africa for those so inclined.

Regards,

Bill

Hello Louis,

Glad to see you made it back alive after your brave stay with Brian K. in our fair city.

Brian and his brother greatly enjoyed their hunt because you allowed them to get out of the truck and hunt "on foot".

Wolfgar:

I took no offense whatever at your reply and, indeed, was reminded that a family man has to have a different budget. (BTW, I would swap you for your family and my freedom of action when I went to Africa)

I still say, talk to someone like Shakari. I didn't go for sable but I do know that they are very elusive and difficult to hunt. ( I hate to tell you this but the very day I came to camp, the PH pointed out a sable standing in the shade of an acacia around noontime and I confess, that even though he whispered he was trophy class, I just looked at him. I was after Cape buffalo) You might also consider kudu, a truly impressive trophy and I think may be easier to get than a sable.

Wolfgar - the magic word is "time". How much time can you spend ? (and each day of time costs you money) Are you looking at plains game only because you think DG are beyond your reach? The fact is that you can have a very decent hunt and a damned good chance of taking a trophy buff at a lot less money than it might take to get a sable. (BTW, an impala makes a very handsome wall mount and so does a waterbuck - both of which are a heck of a lot easier to shoot than a sable. BUT, like I said, talk to someone like Shakari. I could be all wet and he can get you a PH at a price within your budget who will put you in front of a sable. (For god's sake, get the rifle up quickly and don't take forever before you squeeze off, the two cardinal complaints of PHs)

My trip to RSA, Eastern Cape, 3 hunters with 2 non-hunters, 17 animals (2 Kudu, Zebra, Blue and Black Wildebeast, Nyala, Mtn. Reedbuck, 4 Springbuck, 2 Blesbok, Steenbok, 3 Impala) plus monkeys, cost $17500 without airfare. We were there 16 days. We over did what we planned, but had the best time as a family.

I would suggest you try one of the 6 animal packages in RSA with a good outfit. You will never regret the price. WE are headed back in 2005.

Wolgar, to give you an exact answer to your question, is that a lot of people can afford to hunt in Tanzania and do every year. Tanzania is usually fully booked every year and it seems like there is no hesitation for future hunts as some clients are booking already for 2007.

I understand your question and hesitation though, and not everyone can or will be able to go do a 21-day hunt in Tanzania. some of the prices mentioned above though are not usually the norm, and with a good outfitter a normal Tanzania safari when it is all said and done with all the fees, charters, trophy fees etc etc. will normally be $60,000 - $70,000 on the average. Yes, if you book with some of the big names, you will pay more, but this does not mean you will get more for your money either. I do not think that most people actaully realize how expensive it is to operate in Tanzania It is very expensive and a never ending black hole there This mainly the reason for higher costs and prices in Tanzania and it is not because the outfitters there are getting rich. Yes, of course you have the few that have made some good money there, but it is not the general outfitters making the money. The ones that have made good money there made their money from people who could afford to to go there and pay the extra high prices just to hunt with that "brand name". But do not confuse a handful of big name outfitters with the rest of the operaters there that are just charging what they have to in order to make some sort of profit and get by. Everything in Tanzania is twice the price. When you just look at fuel being around $4 a gallon, you might get a little idea of what I am trying to say.

It is all in perspective though, as I do not understand how some people will pay $10,000 -$15,000 for a big whitetail deer To me this is crazy, and would rather go to South Africa or namibia and shoot 10-15 animals for the same price. People pay more for hunting and per animal here in the US than anywhere in Africa if you want to look at the facts Someone will pay $2,000 - $3,500 for an "average" deer then turn around a complain that a trophy fee for an Eland at $1,500 is too much So, I personally think that Africa and in this case tanzania gets a bad rap on prices.

Living in Texas I do not know how people can afford to live in California or New York as everything is much higher So, the same question could be asked in many different perspectives. What is too expensive for you or I, is normal for another guy.

I would rather have the prices in Tanzania out of my reach, but still open to hunting, rather then not paying its way and disapear into a dustbowl of people forever. There's plenty of affordable africa out there for me.

Great post if I say so myself !!! I enjoyed all of your thoughts.
Gerald, your reply helped me to put things in perspective...it's easy to overlook the blessings my family has given me.
Adam, great reply and right on the money. Believe me when I tell you that I would book one of your safaris in a minute if I was able to. I also fully agree with you with the prices of a North American hunt. $20,000 for a Stone Sheep, or $50,000 for a Desert Sheep....thats just one animal !!!
I do live in New York City area, and I don't know how I do it either....My kids private school costs me almost $1,000 per month, but it's either pay that or send them to public schools, which are only slightly better than a war zone! Well, take care everybody Wolf