I brought out my Negley book from storage in the closet. He worked up from 55 lb. pull bows to the 102 lb draw weight bow that was made by Fred Bear just for his Africa hunt. Very painful experience, as he over did it right from the start, lots of novocaine and cortisone shots to his shoulder joints, it's a wonder the man wasn't crippled for life. He also claims that a Prohunter told him that it was common knowledge and talk among the Pros that were there, that Bob Swinehearts elephant was taken the same way that Howard Hill's was, by knee-capping the beast with a heavy rifle first. What ever, handling a stick bow over 70-80 lbs is quite a chore. There is also a diminishing return in arrow perfomance when you get over 60 lbs, at least as far as arrow speed goes. Sort of like a cartridge when you reach a point where you have to add a proporionately greater amount of powder to get an ever decreasing amount of velocity gain. Negleys arrow weighed 1000 grains, for the elephants, He killed two of them. The native trackers were Wahliangulus, so they probably didn't see any thing with his bow and arrow elephant kills that they hadn't seen before. Walex

I would like to reply to the wood arrows not being stiff enough and your father had to use fiberglass arrows. Most likely wood arrow that were stiff enough were not available back in your fathers time to buy. It's just a matter of finding arrow wood that is dense and stiff enough, spine they call it. I have two Manchu War arrows in my archery collection that are 42 inches long almost 9/16 diameter, and weigh 1500 grains, the arrow head alone is 500 grains, the fletching about a foot long, the spine is sufficient for any bow of well over 120 lb. the bow that I have to match would pull at least that. They appear to be made of a fine grain fir. The literature I have seen from the Grayson collection, old Chinese translations, speak of what they called the large heavy "Infantry Bow" which was a Manchu Empire design, coming in standard weights of 70, 80, 90 and 100 lbs. The Manchu used this long, long recurved composite bow for cavalry also. A 60 lb at 30 " draw composite siniew and horn replica that I made on that design, required a 90 lb. spine Douglas Fir arrow. It put the 900 grain arrow through the chrono at 150 fps. Drawn to the hilt, it definitely would have put any Mongol trooper storming the Wall on his butt. The Manchu Chinese Empire army was largely armed with this bow until after the Boxer Rebellion. Not enough Mausers to go around I would imagine, or maybe the Manchu rulers didn't want the Chinese troops in their forces to have them. Walex

Judge G,
You kill me!!!!!!!!
best,
bhtr

OldSarge - "According to what I remember about them, they pulled long bows of 100-150 lbs."

With much respect, there is NOT proper wood growing on African soil that would be able to create a selfbow in the proper lenght to draw 100-150lbs. - 72" min. Also, cordage maretial is higly questionable, possible, but unlikely.

Further primative tools would also hinder such constuction IF proper wood ie. Yew,Hickory or maybe Maple a few of trees growing in a manner to offer a bowyer a stave long enough to create such a bow. English crafts men spend months creating War Bows with forged steel tools.

While the famous English archers did shoot bows of a 100+ lbs. in Draw, they also started training in youth with daily practice. A luxury that a primate people could not afford. War bows were not shoot for accuracy, they were the field artillery of the Middle ages. Arrows were cast above the enemy raining down en mass. The moive Braveheart has historically accurate battle seens involveing archers.

Very few primative cultures built bow over 40# in draw, due to the woods available, tools and size of the archer. also, primative peoples most often hunt as a team using several archers to kill game as they hunt for survival not sport.

While Hill did take some questionable libertys with films he DID accomplish some increadible feets in the field. There is some famous footage of a male African Lion on movie film. You see a Lion under a tree. Hill's arrow, shoot from a truck bed, hits the beast in the vitals. You then see a tracker running for his life toward the truck. For breif second you watch the Lion leap toward the camera(In the truck behind Hill) The camera spins wildly pointed to the sky) You hear several rifle shots. Then see the as the camera is picked up, the dead lion, and Hill's Bloody right shoulder as a remineder of who is the King of Beasts.

Walex - You make some valid points. However, you are mixing a lot of apples & oranges in discussing Selfbows with are made from a single stave or lengh of wood and Composite bows witch are made from one or more staves and backed/stenghten with materials from Whale balen to leg tendion sinue depending upon the builers available natual material. Composit bows were developed by people that did not have "proper lenght" woods available. The backing material allowed more flex to be applied to a shorted peice of wood. The utlamate example being our plains indian peoples horse bows. That were made from a wood core, with stips of horn attached with sinue & hide glue.

My commet on proper Selfbow lenght is directed to long term use as a hunting tool. Based upon the physical propertys of the various bow woods. Further, I belive Tim Baker would agree as I've read his works.

I agree that in a survival situtation one could make a servicable bow from just about anything but, that, I do not believe to be the core of this discussion.

Reference our modern trad. bows - With machineing process, fiberglass tech., and spaceage epoxy available, today bowyers can bulid a 60# bow that is on par in performace with an 80+ bow of yesterday.

Old Sarge - No, I did not read that prior to my post. I'm always iterested in leaning more about my weapon of choice. One thing I noticed in te articale was that there was not any factual data on how these bow's draw was tested. Historical legands tend to get embelished over the years.Look at the accounts of our "gunslingers in the old west" as example.

I have no doupt th at at these tribes men did kill Elephants on a regular bases at rediculous close range(Probable "TRUE" secret of there success), with single arrow shots.

What I have a real problem believeing is these outragous draw wt. from a selfbow. I base that upon personnal experence of making those bows. The higher the draw the longer the bow must be to handle the stress. Most bows in 55-65 range MUST be 6' long to disperce the wt. over the lenght of the limbs so that the bow will survie more than a few arrows. The hard thing about this type of research is that we are dealing with an extict people without written documentation.

.

bowyers bible #3 talks about a tribe called the bassa. Anyone have ony history on them? also mentions the Liangulu and Kamba of Kenya says they hunted elephant by the hundreds and used bows pulling over 100lbs.
I always thaught Africa had lots of hard dense woods isn't that where purpleheart and bubinga come from.
The book also mentions that they used antelope hide and neck sinew from giraffe for string. Says some African natives 6 foot tall were seen with bows taller than themselves.
In the negley video he hands his 100lb plus bow to a native and he pulls and shoots it very well.
Dean

Not that this has much to do with anything, but I have shot a bow that was developed as a prototype for Howard Hill to use on elephants in Africa.



In the Fall of 1957, I was a student at the University of Arkansas. Two friends of mine and I were renting a small guest house, off campus, in Fayetteville. Both of these friends lived in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, and worked summers at the Ben Pearson factory. One of my friend's uncle, was part owner of Ben Pearson, and in charge of _________ (can't remember what).



My two friends had brought to Fayetteville, all kinds of B.P. bows and arrows, and we had a fine time shooting both at the University's archery range, and "out in the boonies." The price was right, so to speak.



After the semester break, my friends returned to Fayetteville, with a trunk load of new archery stuff for us to play with. When they unpacked the bows and arrows, my friend whose uncle was the big dog at the B.P. factory, took a long case from the trunk, opened it and handed me a beautiful longbow.



He said, "String this baby up and draw it."



I couldn't even string the thing, and at that time I was 6'3", weighed 190 pounds, and was in very good shape. My friend laughed, strung it, and handed it to me, whereupon I managed to draw it, but it was very difficult to hold the draw.



My friend told me it was one of two prototypes the factory had made, for Howard Hill, who would be taking it to Africa to kill an elephant. (At that time, Ben Pearson sponsored Howard Hill.) IIRC, it was 110 pounds, but I'm not sure. We later shot it a lot, and it would flat sling an arrow down range. (We had more arrows, target points, small game points, various big game hunting points, fish hunting tips, etc., than we knew what to do with.) My friends were far better shots than I, but then they'd been playing with bows and arrows much longer than I.



My friend took the bow back to the B.P. factory, a couple weeks later. Whether or not Howard Hill took that particular bow to Africa, I'll never know. But I have absolutely no doubt it would have put a good arrow very deeply into an elephant.



FWIW. L.W.

Boss Kongoni I think that you have read the same literature I have come across. The old fable that the short composite bow is the same that I have read. If one looks at the facts, geography and trade routes, there is nowhere in Asia that is so remote from forested areas, that the steppe nomads couldn't have gotten all the bow wood their hearts desired. Their trade routes at a very early date stretched thousands of miles. The composite bow shows up in the archaeological record in the advanced civilizations of the middle East long before it shows up on the steppes. Besides, the composite bow has to have very good wood for the core. The plains Indians were never more than a few hundred miles from wooded river bottoms, and they did indeed use the best of wood for their siniew backed bows. The composite bow was superior technology, and allowed a short bow for mounted archery, but a wooden self bow can be made in very high weights. I have spent many, many, days at Dr Graysons in Oregon, before he sent his collection to The U of Misouri, in Columbus. Also many hours at NW Archery, in Seattle, at the St Charles P&Y Museum chatted at length with Glen, and his son Joe. I shot one of Joe's yew longbows at their indoor range, SWEET and have kicked myself every since for not buying it on the spot. The book Long Bow is very informative, also. The bows that were recovered from Henry the eigth's ship The Mary Rose, were most likely representative of the period. Replica's were made, exact copies, and were a revelation. They were quite high, all in the 80 plus pound range, many over 100, but not as high as the 150 pound myth range. Joe St Charles woud be the one to talk to on Yew Longbows, and their history, and making them and their dimensions I'm a member of the England Based Society of Archer Antiquaries, Ihave all copies of the yearly journals, and have contributed, with a Mongol archaelogist, G. Menes, an article on the medieval Mongol bow, several years ago. Also, composite bows are not all short. The Manchu war bows I have are six feet long or more, measured along the limb. An Indo Persian bow I have is about 40 inches. Japanese bows are laminated wood, and are 7 to 9 feet or more.

The museums of the world are full of very very good bows that are not made of proper wood, some of the best wood selfbows ever made in the world were made of beech in Tierra del Fuego with stone tools by a people who couldn't even figure out a button or toggle to hold on their skin capes. I have seen a quiver full of their arrow at Dr Chas. Graysons place. No Englishman ever made arrows as exquisite as those. No other human known to history ever did such superior flintknapping as the Yahgans and Onas there. A bow does not have to be a "proper Length to work, nor does an arrow. The Japanese used bows 9 feet long on horse back. The Plains Indians and Ishi made siniew backed wood and horn bows that made the English longbow look primitive. At the battles of Crecy and Poiters, Agincourt, in the heyday of the English longbow, the English economies were stressed to the breaking point to keep very small armie of poorly equipped men in the field. The English had like 6500 men at Agincourt. At the last Turkish siege of Vienna, the Crimean Tartar Khan sent 30,000 Tartar cavalry to aid the Turks. All Archers. Most any Tartar, Turk, or Mongol nomad tribe of any consequence, could , between 1000 BC And 1850, mount 2 to 20 times the effectives, all mounted, and very well equipped, as could the English during the heyday of the Longbow. In 1812 the Kalmuck Mongols did savage work on the retreating grand Armee of Napolean , during the winter retreat, with their mounted archery. I've seen, handled Crimean Tartar Bows, 1 made 1803, 1 in 1805, had them long enough to make blue prints. Lay them along side the best English longbow, and you can really see what primitive technoly it is. But it is effective. My point is that the Aficans no doubt made bows at least as good, or could have. Allmost every small African tribe could make iron, and have for a thousand years or more. they made iron spears axes knives and tools, arrowheads would be easy. Probably the most elephants ever killed by bow and arrow was when Kubilai's Mongols, with Marco Polo as witness, defeated the King of Pagan, or Burma. Their archers killed hundreds of them in a few hours of battle. We just don't like to admit that the English man of the 1300's wasn't much more technoligically advanced than the Africans were in the same time period. I have had a peek at Tim Bakers attic, and a pile of about 200 self wood bows, none of them made from proper wood, most from boards from the lumber yard, some whipped out in less than 10 minutes, yet all were real good performers, and shot well, and I'd bet that quite a few were made of wood from Africa.

Alf:

Please do a wee bit of research and get me pictures (signed and notarized) of John Kerry, nude, either with a "live boy or a dead woman", a' la Gov. Edwards of Louisiana!

Is there anything you can't find in 10 minutes?

BTW, I used to own an archery products company. I still have a few bows around that we made in higher poundages. I've shot a 70# recurve for 25 years with no particular problem... sometimes not using it for several months, and after a few practice shots, being right back at best form. Bump that to just 80#'s, and if I don't practice everyday for a month or so, I'm useless with the thing.

Back in 1988 or so, while at the an archery convention in Columbus MO, I believe it was, they had a "bionic" bow that tested your ability to draw. The "do everything" Bo Jackson was there. He casually pulled on the thing and drew 230#'s with little noticable effort. Damnedest thing I ever saw... Bo knows bows, too, it seems. But he could probably have choked an elephant to death if he'd so taken a notion.

Exactly, Tonto. As I recall the citation on the very heavy African bows, the picture showed a man drawing a very long bow, something over 7' I would suspect. The arrows were very long, too, possibly to give added mass and superior sectional density to penetrate into an elephant's vitals. This is not to claim that they were shooting at the same set of vitals we do. A liver or kidney shot behind the rib cage would be deadly in time. Even an abdominal shot would bring about death by peritonitis. I believe that is/was the preferred technique of the Congolese Ewi pygmies. I just take issue with the blanket statement that since no good wood exists in Africa, no such bow is possible. As a budding furniture maker, I am very fond of African wood . . . but, then, I'm not trying to make bows.

.

Well, I've read every post and enjoyed all this very much. Really, though, I'm glad I have modern firearms instead.

Boss,

Did you READ ALF's post?

In the book "Hunter" by John A. Hunter, the well known pro, there is a picture of a Wakamba archer with a longbow. The man has a powerful body from constant exercise. It seems fully capable of taking an elephant. Here in South America, the northern tribes used to shoot very powerful bows drawing with the legs. I�ve shot a guaran� bow with this method being a boy. The arrow reached almost 200 meters. I didn�t know at the time the arrow�s weight, being very long (more than a meter).

POW, I'm with you on that one, even though this thread has killed a lot of elephants with arrows, Your not gonna read about me trying it. Maybe not even with a gun, I can tell you right here and now that with critters that big, I'm too chicken!