Ideal Lion Battery

25 January 2012, 06:54

crbutler

Ideal Lion Battery

I did just fine with a .375 H&H and 300 grain TSX at 2500 FPS.

I used the swarovski Z6 1.7-10 illuminated reticle and Talley QD mounts. Killed the lion, dropped within 5 feet. Leopard died in the tree. For my rifle the zero does not shift with removing/replacing the scope, so no problems if you need to pull it for a follow up.

I don't think the more frangible bullets would have made a difference at all, and as you say, its one bullet for most anything you might need it for.

25 January 2012, 06:54

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
The .500 with the Docter red dot sight would in fact make an excellent back up rifle. I think I will amend my initial thoughts on the ideal battery to replace the Leupold with a Trijicon 3-9x40 with the standard crosshair with a green dot.

on both of those thoughts

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.

25 January 2012, 07:11

kingd

I'm thinking .416 Rigby w/ factory loads. Seems like that killed a butt load of cats w/ no problem. Just my 2 cents.

25 January 2012, 07:12

LionHunter

Mike,

I just want to jump back in here to strongly encourage you to look at the CEB bullets for ALL your safari needs. Like Aaron, I have become a believer in these bullets and hope to use them exclusively in all future safaris, including the next Ele safari this coming August, which will include .223, .416 and my new .458B&M for a two person battery.

No need to replace your Leupold, unless you just want a new toy, you will not have a problem with the 1.5-5x illuminated 30mm.

Also, when I mentioned killing my big boy with a .458Lott, I was not suggesting that caliber as best Lion medicine. I do admit to a belief, based upon extensive personal african experience, that the .416 will do anything a .375 will, but will positively do it better.

25 January 2012, 07:32

Todd Williams

Mike, I'd like to jump back in once more as well. My suggestion was based on what I used with the 350gr TSX giving a bit more speed in the 416 Ribgy than a 400gr. Speed works for the cats!

I think you'll like the decision to go with the 3X9 Trijicon. I have 2 of them and they are excellent. I used one on my June 2011 Leopard hunt, mounted on a Ruger #1 in 300H&H. I could see the cat clearly just as day break arrived and the dot was glowing.

While I used the TSX and have done so with quite a large variety of game, and never found it to be anything but exceptional, I'd also like to modify my statement in favor of the CEB Non-Con or Raptor bullet.

25 January 2012, 07:56

MJines

I hear everyone on the CEB Non-Cons. Perhaps it is the conservative in me that says, let a number of other folks try the Non-Cons on the big cats and see how that goes before making the switch. The TSX has "been there, done that" on the big cats, buffalo and most everything else. Just like at work, I am not a big fan of Serial No. 1 equipment. I am sure the Non-Cons would do fine, but I will be "more sure" once others blaze that trail ahead of me.

Todd, on your Trijicon, do you have the dot or triangle, amber or green? Sounds like folks generally believe the green is easier to pick up and stands out better than the amber. I have a triangle reticle on my current Trijicon but I worry that it would be too large for shooting at longer distances, darker lighting, etc., hence my thought about going with the dot. I am sure the Leupold would do fine but I do worry that Murphy's Law (Sod's Law if hunting in Zim) would mean that the battery would end up failing at the most disadvantegous time.

25 January 2012, 08:47

Todd Williams

Mike,

I have the red triangle on the 1.25X4 but the amber dot with crosshairs on the 2 3X9s. The dot and crosshairs are much better for precision shooting but the green option was not yet available when I purchased mine. I do agree that the green is the most visible and it will the option purchased on my next Trijicon.

25 January 2012, 08:53

jdollar

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I like your ideas, Mike.

I have killed two lions so far with a Blaser R93, one with a .375 H&H Mag. barrel and Schmidt & Bender 1.25-4x20mm Flash Dot illuminated reticle scope on top, and the other with a .338 Win. Mag. barrel and a Schmidt & Bender 2.5-10x56mm Zenith standard reticle scope on top.

Bullets were Hirtenberger 272 grain ABC bullets in the .375 and Barnes 225 grain XLC coated X bullets in the .338.

Both worked very well.

I thought the .375 was the minimum caliber for lion hunting throughout Africa?

25 January 2012, 09:22

Michael Robinson

quote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
I thought the .375 was the minimum caliber for lion hunting throughout Africa?

Not in Namibia, where I killed an approximately ten year old cattle killing problem ongeama north of Etosha several years ago with my .338.

To further the discussion, I must also say that I differ with those who say follow ups with scopes are a no go. I had to follow up both of my lions (stories there!), and used the scopes in both instances.

Crank a scope down to low end magnification and it can be very fast.

On the first lion, my killing follow up shot was a quartering shot from the left hip to the right shoulder, as he was moving obliquely away, at 15 yards. Scope was set to 1.25x and I am glad I had it.

On the second lion, my killing follow up shot was at 20 yards, into his chest, just where it joined the throat, and just as he charged. Scope was set at 2.5x. From the time he launched the charge to the shot was a fraction of a second.

Scopes can be very fast, and in certain circumstances, even faster than iron sights.

I also have to differ with those who suggest that more than a .375 may be needed. Put the bullet where it matters, and a .270 will drop a lion in his tracks. My .338 was more than enough gun, even in the face of a charge.

25 January 2012, 09:49

ozhunter

I had good results from a Blaser in 9.3x62 with an Illuminated Schmidt&Bender Scope But not as good compared to the effects provided from an open sighted Westley Richards in 425Magnum Express.
The 425WR with a Woodleigh Soft at 2320fps is the "Ducks Guts" for Lion producing a massive wound via a quartering shot with the projectile found in the chest after destroying practical all the vitals.
If I was to go after Lion again it would be with a 40cal with a QD scope and preferably with a minimum velocity of 2100fps.
The recovered Woodleigh soft nose on the right;

Also worth noting is that both my lion plus other stalked Lion where shot or seen at REAL close quarters (12 to 25m) so a 40+cal with a fast moving soft bullet offers a little more comfort over, say a 7,9.3, 9.5mm cal bullet.

25 January 2012, 15:46

opus72

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I have the red triangle on the 1.25X4 but the amber dot with crosshairs on the 2 3X9s. The dot and crosshairs are much better for precision shooting but the green option was not yet available when I purchased mine. I do agree that the green is the most visible and it will the option purchased on my next Trijicon.

I totally agree with this. Maybe the triangle takes some getting used to. I find the triangle very quick to get on target and shoot minute of buffalo, but for a more precise shot I use crosshairs.

No batteries needed in the Trijicon is a big plus.

Good luck on this hunt, Mike. When are you going?

25 January 2012, 16:58

MJines

End of August, beginning of September.

25 January 2012, 17:38

ROSCOE

Mike,
Dont you have a classic Mauser to take on the hunt? I thought I saw a few Photos of a particular rifle that is calling to be taken on a Lion Hunt.

******************************************************************
R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle."
******************************************************************
We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?'

25 January 2012, 17:56

Aaron Neilson

Mike - I believe the link below, holds the answer to your problem! Apparently it can pierce car doors and body armor at 100 yards? Granted, it'll take a little practice, but you might also get a chance to use the .577NE in the follow-up. What do you think???

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3021043/m/5531001051

25 January 2012, 20:00

BwanaCole

Sheesh, you guys just need to man up:

Louisville Slugger
and
a roll of dimes...

25 January 2012, 21:07

fairgame

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
quote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
I thought the .375 was the minimum caliber for lion hunting throughout Africa?

Not in Namibia, where I killed an approximately ten year old cattle killing problem ongeama north of Etosha several years ago with my .338.

To further the discussion, I must also say that I differ with those who say follow ups with scopes are a no go. I had to follow up both of my lions (stories there!), and used the scopes in both instances.

Crank a scope down to low end magnification and it can be very fast.

On the first lion, my killing follow up shot was a quartering shot from the left hip to the right shoulder, as he was moving obliquely away, at 15 yards. Scope was set to 1.25x and I am glad I had it.

On the second lion, my killing follow up shot was at 20 yards, into his chest, just where it joined the throat, and just as he charged. Scope was set at 2.5x. From the time he launched the charge to the shot was a fraction of a second.

Scopes can be very fast, and in certain circumstances, even faster than iron sights.

I also have to differ with those who suggest that more than a .375 may be needed. Put the bullet where it matters, and a .270 will drop a lion in his tracks. My .338 was more than enough gun, even in the face of a charge.

Very very well said.

26 January 2012, 02:00

wtnut

Shot my lion last year with a trijicon 3 x 9 x 40 crosshair with illuminated dot. Lion came in about 10 minutes before dark and sat down next to bait with poor angle to vitals. Five minutes later he stood up and walked to other side of bait and laid down at poor angle again.
Two minutes later he stood up and gave me perfect shot. He went about 30-40 yds.He was crystal clear in the scope when I shot yet the bait site was starting to get dark .Was very impressed with scope.

26 January 2012, 02:40

MJines

wtnut,

Amber or green dot?

26 January 2012, 03:12

ledvm

quote:
Amber or green dot?

see this thread

http://forums.accuratereloadin...661080861#4661080861

26 January 2012, 03:39

ddrhook

Lane,
if i remember correctly the battery you use is surefire right???

26 January 2012, 04:26

MJines

Thank Lane, that is perfect.

26 January 2012, 08:07

Antlers

quote:
Originally posted by ROSCOE:
Mike,
Dont you have a classic Mauser to take on the hunt? I thought I saw a few Photos of a particular rifle that is calling to be taken on a Lion Hunt.

Yeah, Mike - I thought you had a 404 or a 416; why not use that?

26 January 2012, 19:27

xausa

quote:
Originally posted by LionHunter:
I've never personally seen a bang/flop Lion.

Here's one. .375 H&H Krieghoff Teck O/U double rifle, 300 grain Winchester Silvertip factory load, about 75 yards.

We drove up on a pride consisting of this fellow, several females and numerous cubs feeding on a bait. I dismounted with the rifle and the car drove away. All but this one disappeared into the tall grass. He remained behind to cover the retreat.

One shot through the chest was all it took, and he never moved. The car came right back, in case one or more of the females got nasty, but they never reappeared.

26 January 2012, 20:44

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Antlers:
quote:
Originally posted by ROSCOE:
Mike,
Dont you have a classic Mauser to take on the hunt? I thought I saw a few Photos of a particular rifle that is calling to be taken on a Lion Hunt.

Yeah, Mike - I thought you had a 404 or a 416; why not use that?

At the risk of significant public shame, I have to confess that I actually like the Blasers. They are lightening quick, very accurate, extremely safe to carry, have great triggers, an exceptional scope mounting system and, in my experience, have been very reliable. Why the .375 H&H? The more I read and talk to folks, seems like that is the caliber that is most frequently recommended for lion. I have a .416 Rem Mag barrel for the Blaser so I could definitely use that for a little more juice too. I also want something that I can use for all the bait animals. While the .416 would be fine, for most it would be more than needed.

26 January 2012, 20:50

ROSCOE

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
At the risk of significant public shame, I have to confess that I actually like the Blasers. .

Takes a brave man to say this......

You better give me your 404 before someone takes it from you.

26 January 2012, 21:38

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:

At the risk of significant public shame, I have to confess that I actually like the Blasers.

It's a sad day fellow Texans. A sad day indeed.

26 January 2012, 21:47

MJines

Dare I admit that I drive a Ford too?

26 January 2012, 23:38

fairgame

quote:
Originally posted by xausa:
quote:
Originally posted by LionHunter:
I've never personally seen a bang/flop Lion.

Here's one. .375 H&H Krieghoff Teck O/U double rifle, 300 grain Winchester Silvertip factory load, about 75 yards.

We drove up on a pride consisting of this fellow, several females and numerous cubs feeding on a bait. I dismounted with the rifle and the car drove away. All but this one disappeared into the tall grass. He remained behind to cover the retreat.

One shot through the chest was all it took, and he never moved. The car came right back, in case one or more of the females got nasty, but they never reappeared.

High shoulder shot? And there is another blood stain?

27 January 2012, 04:19

xausa

The bullet hole behind the shoulder is an exit wound. The lion was facing me, with his body angling from left to right toward me. All of the bleeding took place around the exit. I don't recall what the origin of the second blood soaked area was, but I suspect that in the course of manoeuvering the body around for the photograph, it came into contact with the pool of blood on the ground.

I donated the full body mount to the Nashville Science Museum, so I suppose I could examine the mounted hide carefully to locate the exact points of entry and exit. Keep in mind, this was an event which took place almost 40 years ago.

27 January 2012, 05:31

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Dare I admit that I drive a Ford too?

Ford is OK...didn't take a bail out!

Blaser???...give me a Model 70 Winchester!

27 January 2012, 06:27

Indy

.375 H&H in Winchester Model 70 CRF. 300 grain North Fork soft points at just over 2500 fps. Burris signature series scope, 1.5-5X with 40mm objective gives much better twilight factor than the Leupold 1.5-5X and also comes with an LED reticle. Talley QD rings.

The bullet made a very large exit hole. The lion went roaring into the long grass for about 10 seconds and then silence. Dead.

Another thing I like about this setup is I can shoot Cape buffalo and impala with the same bullet (for first shot on buff).

27 January 2012, 13:08

Milo Shanghai

I'd go with what I know and shoot best; .458WM and a shot gun for follow up. No shooting over bait unless PAC.

27 January 2012, 19:12

Scriptus

YAH ! YAH ! Vukani, aka Harold Trollope, one of the first Kruger rangers [with Harry Wolhuter} was instructed to thin out the lion drastically. His weapon of choice was a .303 Br. iron sights [ex military] using 174 gr FMJs.

27 January 2012, 19:13

Trax

quote:
Originally posted by North Fork:
To MJines,

We have been developing bullets with input from Kevin Robertson in .375, .416, and .458 just for this duty. We call them the Percusion Point, or PP. They are relatively the same as our current soft point except for an outer groove that helps the bullet expand almost instantly on impact. For the feline family, shock kills the large cats, unlike the heavy animals (buffs, elephants, rhino, etc). It will not come apart or make a bigger mushroom than our standard bullet and one can still use them on tougher game you will just loose some overall penetration due to the quicker opening. The advantage to this bullet is you will be able to feel what bullet you will load into the gun. While this may not seem like much, but now one will have a tactile confirmation in low/dark light situations, i.e. a blind. If there is much call for the 9.3mm, we can make those as well.

Just another option for you to think about.

Regards,
North Fork

If the NF-PP expands almost immediately on impact,
Im curious to know what depth/amount of penetration is typically required for the regular .375cal 300gn NF soft to achieve full expansion in a large cat.
Does the regular soft typically reach full expansion on broadside shots before reaching the vitals?

27 January 2012, 21:27

fairgame

quote:
Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
I'd go with what I know and shoot best; .458WM and a shot gun for follow up. No shooting over bait unless PAC.

Shotgun for Lion? Think you are best using the trusty 458WM which is a big hitter. If you have sorted out a wounded Lion with shotgun I would be keen to hear about it mate.

Cheers

27 January 2012, 21:29

fairgame

quote:
Originally posted by xausa:
The bullet hole behind the shoulder is an exit wound. The lion was facing me, with his body angling from left to right toward me. All of the bleeding took place around the exit. I don't recall what the origin of the second blood soaked area was, but I suspect that in the course of manoeuvering the body around for the photograph, it came into contact with the pool of blood on the ground.

I donated the full body mount to the Nashville Science Museum, so I suppose I could examine the mounted hide carefully to locate the exact points of entry and exit. Keep in mind, this was an event which took place almost 40 years ago.

Those were the days my friend.

28 January 2012, 03:19

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
quote:
Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
I'd go with what I know and shoot best; .458WM and a shot gun for follow up. No shooting over bait unless PAC.

Shotgun for Lion? Think you are best using the trusty 458WM which is a big hitter. If you have sorted out a wounded Lion with shotgun I would be keen to hear about it mate.

Cheers

......................................

Me too!

28 January 2012, 03:36

ozhunter

A shotgun that shoots a slug accurately would probably be a good choice for follow-up.

28 January 2012, 03:54

sandyhunter

quote:
A shotgun that shoots a slug accurately would probably be a good choice for follow-up.

This is exactly what I said earlier. The most powerful Brenneke slugs are more than strong enough to do the job, and a good semi auto (you can bring them into most countries, contrary to popular belief) can spit them out very quickly.

28 January 2012, 05:44

ledvm

If I ever have to follow up on a wounded lion...I will be toting my .500 NE double.