Standing about 30 yards in front of this elephant bull, would his posture convince you to:
1. Immediately shoot him?
2. On which spot of his body would you place your shot? and
3. What calibre rifle and type of bullet would you use?



Thanks for taking part in the little game - fun and good to see the reaction.

Now for the real thing:

quote:

Out of the thicket thunders a massive beast, with tusks like spears and a trunk like a tree. Its ears flap wildly, like banners in an ancient war charge. Small amber eyes burn with undaunted resolution. It trumpets and begins to charge.

Please answer the same three questions above - now less than 30yrds away, though!
(Edit your first reply - situation different after the bull moved a bit!)

I don't think I'd shoot, specially at 30 yards.

Non-threatening posture to my mind.

I,d pose my kids on either side of his tusks and take pictures.

Somebody needs to scrub the moss off his side.

You can see the high water mark on his feet!

I was assuming we were supposed to pretend it was real.

At that angle, if I was going to shoot, I'd go for a spot between where the wrinkles start on his trunk and the inside corner of his eye-socket.

But I have not yet read Will's book!

I would go in touch of this skulpture and find out, what matrial it is made of.

I will be the first serious response of how to...


Would not shoot him at 30yds. I would draw an imaginary line at around 15 to 18 yds...If I could not yell him off...That is where shooting would start...I am going to assume we are talking a straight on shot and not an angle...
I would want a minimum 458 Lott or a double starting with 450 #2, 470, or a 500 NE..I would hold at that big crease on the trunk just under the eyes.... with the angle of his head being the same...

Norbert you are the expert where would you shoot him...

Mike

I knew we were supposed to be serious. I was just being a wise-ass.
I don't know squat about elephants and I would have thought the brain was higher, like at that dark spot above the eye toward the opposite ear.
Could someone who knows superimpose the brain outline on that pic.

With due respect to the artist, his left check bone is shown horizntal and should really be slopped upward as it does back towards it's ear.

The way it is drawn someone said correctly to shoot it just to the left of the eye.

On a real elephant it would be an inch or two higher.

NEW PIC:

You should wait for him to turn during the actual charge as this elephant isn't charging.

If he is dancing around as you say, odds are a brain shot will miss and if he takes off... dang, that will be expensive

In case he was real.

.375H&H Monolithic 350 Grain bullet


Roland

i would wait for him to move so I could either have a proper frontal or side brain shot, 30 yards is a lot of distance for a bull.

Wonder how many guys will be able to pull this second one off - not to mention if the first one was alive?

30 yrds may sound a long distance off, but don't fool yourselves, within seconds the beast could have been right on top of you!

Roland1, I think your shot is about four inches high.
Would one of you real ele hunters please comment here.

Well... Its kind of hard to actually answer on the first one as its not very accurate and the bullet would bounce off the concrete.. thats a serious answer... the second bull seems to have just completed a mock charge and is backing off - kicking up a bit of dust. so unless I was hunting him, there's no need to shoot.

Asuming the first elephant is a real one and not a concrete one, you don't have a decent brain shot at this angle. The bullet will have to pass through the top of the tusk socket. That bone can do strange things to even the best bullet. Wait for a better shot when he turns either side ways or straight on to you. On the second elephant he is doing a bluff charge and there is no need to shoot him unless you have another reason. self defence won't float as an excuse to shoot him. He also gives you a very poor brain shot. Wait him out. If you have to shoot at this position then a frontal chest shot is doable. Place the bullet just inside the left front leg and on a level where the neck joins the chest.

Roland I think you need to bring your cross hair down to the level of the top of the left eye and an inch or two to the right.

465H&H

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While I am certainly no expert and never have claimed to be, I can relate what my first PH explained to me over a couple of sundowners at Chirisa in Zim on my first elephant hunt. This PH is probably one of the most experienced elephant hunters in Zim at the present time. He worked for Zim NP for 12 years and learbed his elephant hunting under the tutorship of Clem Coetze on the NP culling staff. He has taken over 3,000 eles while culling, PAC and sport hunting with clients.

As he explained it to me, a mock charge is an elephants attempt to convince you to back off from what ever you are doing to piss him off. Typically it involves a lot of theatrics on the part of the ele. The head is up, trunk extended toward you or up in the air, lots of screaming, kicking dirt, head shaking that causes the ears to bang loudly against the eles side, short rushes and ears spread to make him look bigger. One does need to be careful as a mock charge can change to a serious charge at a moments notice, esp if you try to run. A serious charge is entirely different. The elephant typically will come at you silently at full speed with it's head lowered and in the two cases I have seen the tusks were literally skimming the ground, the ears will usually be back against the body and the trunk curled up against it's chest. No theatrics here, just deadly intent.

To confuse things more the elephant may not know exactly where you are so during the first part of the charge the head may be up as it runs in your direction trying to locate you. It may not drop it's head until it locates your exact position. That can be any distance from you and he may run over you before he actually sees you. With the head up the frontal shot is much, much more difficult then when lowered.

As far as the court case goes it is impossible to guess what a judge or jury might decide. In the U.S. typicaly the decision will be based on whether the jury believed the hunter felt that his life was trully in danger and that an avearage person in the same circumstances would have also felt the same way. But that is U.S. law, who knows what a Zim judge would decide.

465H&H

I'm no expert having shot one ele, but both "elephants" heads are at a difficult angle for a brain shot. The tusk roots may deflect a shot placed in the right place.

I think most good PHs would wait until the elephant is closer beforing shooting in self defence. Yelling, etc might turn-stop him. Thirty yards might be hard to justify. By the time he is closer, you will have a better frontal shot.

Vapodog, 465H&H, ALF











Roland

The real one:
I would never shoot it, in no case. The ele is not charging, not a trophy bull, may be an ele cow, but not tuskless.
If I am encountering an ele like this situation, I would take a photo and try to go silently back. If it seems to be a starting mock charge, I would fire into the air just above its head. In most cases the ele will turn and go away. If the situation turns dramatically into a real charge, what is not very likely, I would shoot another shot into the air and if that doesn´t help, at a distance of 10 yards take a brain shot (frontal of course), what is in any case sufficient to take him down in time.
That because a prosecution that I was not being in selfdefense can be proved by a good team of trackers. Otherwise it is forbiden to shoot an ele like this.
I went through such a procedure, the ele which was charging me, fell at a distance of 7 meters.
But that was at a time, when law in Zim was still valid.

Put one through his ear. If that fails then you can play for real.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Roland 1:

And what is your point? My point is, I am standing up a hill.

This was your choice not so !


So with this point of aim where does it fall on the skull you then posted?



Your mark shows a point above or on the Processus nasalis of the os frontalis.

This is where the frontal muscles of the trunk attach and with the head in normal position from the side (with the upper molars parallel to the ground) a line parallel to the molars through this point the passes a full 6 or more inches above the cranial cavity.

If you are shooting up at an angle and your point of aim is on this point your shot will pass just under the frontal cortex of the os frontalis and you would have a shot going more than 12 to 14 inches above the cranial cavity.

This incidently is a common error in judging cranial cavity position in relation to topographical anatomy.

ALF,
And what is your point? My point is, I am standing up a hill.

You are right, angle, distance; height and other variables are very deceiving. The shot was to high and would have missed the brain.

Roland

Alf!

I'm still waiting for your reply and what the court decided. Please finish your thoughts on this issue.

465H&H

In my completely inexperienced opinion, from that distance, at that angle, I think I'd put one right through his eye, or the inside corner of it.