A few thoughts for perusal, discussion and/or derision:

Premise � some folks hunt dangerous game. I.e., there is the possibility of getting hurt or killed by voluntarily doing this.

But � Let�s take every empirically proven, imagined or theorized precaution to make sure that we don�t get hurt or killed. Of course I�m referring to � CRF vs. PF, �use enough gun�, �use enough gun but only so much that you can still shoot it straight�, 4 in the box instead of 3, whatever. All the little nuances that some might suggest are important, someone else responds that they aren�t, then the first someone retorts, �Fine, if you�re stupid enough to do that then go ahead, but I�m stacking all the odds in my favor that I can get.�

Something in the back of my mind is seeing an inconsistency here. If you want to voluntarily put yourself in harm�s way, why not increase the danger factor/thrill? I mean, why are you doing something dangerous in the first place? If the definition of stupid in this context is �voluntarily using equipment or techniques that increase the risk of serious injury or death�, then isn�t the very fact that you�re standing there in front of a buffalo when you could be having a beer at Hooter�s �stupid�?

Why not dispense with all of this CRF/PF debate and just use a single shot for "lions and tigers and bears, oh my"? Or an arrow? Burl Ives uttered one of my favorite lines in a movie � �Many�s the time that naught has stood between me and the Gates of Hell but a single ball.� The freakin� Masai hunt lions with spears, or at least they used to. Don�t know if they still do but at least they aren�t extinct from spear hunting lions. Or really tempt fate and use a Remington, and not even a good old one. Get a new one with a J-lock and throw away the key.. I mean, hey, if you�re going to live dangerously, then fer cryin� out loud, live DANGEROUSLY! But of course, such things are a �stunt�. Well, again I pose the question � why?

Why does a free climber sneer at the guy all bundled up with ropes and pitons when both of them are hanging on a sheer rock face with nothing but 1000 feet of air below them? How come parachutists don�t see just how small of a parachute they can use and not bounce?

Why is it �smart� to take every precaution to make sure you aren�t hurt or killed by doing something dangerous, when, well, why the hell are you doing something dangerous in the first place?

Well, just killing time when I probably should be working, but thought I would throw out the question.

Jim
For me...hunting DG is about hunting the animal in
the kind of country they live in.And lucky for us
what country they live in!

For instance if I was
to ever hunt buff,it would be in wild country with ele's and lions roaring at night,...

And with grizz it is BEAUTIFUL wild wide open spaces chock full of salmon filled rivers,....

Being prepared for the worst is just prudent.That's my .02

Jeff

In Before The Lock.

Oh wait, they don't lock threads here. I'll just go and get some popcorn and a coke and watch the fun.

I'll bite, but to your general theme, and NOT the CRF vs PF debate... Perceived risk is relative to each person, and to some extent what is currently considered to be "reasonable". People choose to hunt DG because of the challenge, risk and associated reward. Sure some choose to hunt with a bow or muzzleloader or pistol, but I'm sure they spend considerable time and effort deciding which is the "best" tool to use for the task at hand, and spend time perfecting the usage. I'd rather hunt DG with somebody who is well prepared using a single-shot then I would a guy with a brand new double that he does not know how to use. And if somebody feels that one implementation is better then the next (CRF or PF, for example), then that's their choice. But willfully choosing to hunt with known inferior equipment just to "increase the risk" is just dumb (or as you said, "a stunt"). As is hunting DG ill prepared. To me, the differentiation is quite clear. Now back to work!

As the Harley people say,

"If you have to ask the question, you wouldn't understand the answer."

I have never gotten to hunt dg, so this is my unexperienced opinion of it.

There is a difference between doing something with the potential for harm and being stupid. I don't understand the rock climbing thing myself, but then again I hate heights and am not in shape to get up more than a gentle sloping hill

With the animal you are already at a disadvantage, you have inferior sense of scent, hearing, and sometimes eyesight. You don't move properly through their environment, you're much much slower, smaller, and have no natural weapons. Have the right equipment in the form of a 1917 Enfield chambered in 458 Lott with a 22" barrel (this is my rifle that is under construction) is your only edge. if it gets knocked out of your hand, jams, fails etc. you have no other options, no claws, no fangs, and no speed to get away. Did the Masai hunt Lions with speers because of the challenge? Nope, they didn't have a choice.

Now, once a person knows what they are all about, has stood there in the thick of it and knows how they react, maybe then they will feel they can take on the challenge of using a spear, pokey stick or rock. Personally I don't know if I could wet myself and throw a spear at the same time but I am pretty sure I could shoot a rifle at the same time.

Red

They want to kill the "Dangerous animal" so they can tell everyone they did without the Bear, Lion, buff, etc having the opportunity to go home and brag about the human they bagged.

I don't think that killing a Buff with a bow, pistol or whatever is a stunt if you follow up on what you have started. If you wound one and go to camp without the follow up then it is a stunt. There are few people willing to do this. They probably prefer the PH do it for them
Was Bell just pulling a "stunt" with his light weapons? No he was able and willing to pull it off.

People should use what is legal and what they can handle. If they get killed using lesser weapons that is their option.

There is a difference between taking risks and being plain stupid. I used to rock climb and I used ropes most all of the time. We wont go into exceptions sufice to say if the climb is short enough ropes won't always help and sometimes you are minding your own business and see someone in hurt in a stupid place that needs help so you go anyway.

But back to the point. There are only two types of free climbers ... those who are really good and those who are dead. The only thing separateing the good from the dead is one bad hold/time.

Hunting dangerous game is much the same way. You hunt/climb for the thrill of adventure and the sence of conquering not only fear but the mountain/game animal. You take precausions to minimize the chance of death or serious injury in order to experience this time and time again.

That is the difference between risk and stupidity.

I suppose it is the primevil instinct of man to hunt dangerous animals. It is a rush, such as bungi jumping or car racing...

In my case it is my life, my choice, my first love, the love of the hunt, a step beyond the shooting of a deer or elk, as to the danger I ignore that for the most part, as I have the biggest of edges (my 470) and the competence to get it done and the confidence in my skill, I suppose we all lean towards something that were good at, so thats the case on my part I suppose..

As to death, I would rather be tossed and gored by an old dagga boy, than waste away in a nursing home with some bitch nurse pushing baby food down my mouth, life is only as good as its quality...Your only here a short time and if your smart, you will live it with gusto and make the most out of it...That omits playing safe in life, being a couch potato is a safe life, but not for this youngster..

I think this to be a very, very interesting topic of debate. One that I'm sure will spark lots of interesting points of view. Some may be philosophical as to WHY we were naturally made to hunt in the first place. Others might "opine" (my big Bill O'Reily word for the day), and add it fulfills a certain yearn. Whatever comes of it, the topic, I've got a handful of ju-ju beans and waiting for the sparks to fly. I want to go because I hate mosquitos and flies. I'm taking a number 24 fine meshed wire handled nitro fly swatter with a can of Ace Hardware's famous Hornet and Wasp Killer as a back up. Do the PHs in Zambia provide bathes (tubs) large enough to facilitate the fifty-five gallon drum I will be shipping via freightliner which contains my 100% DEET for my daily bath? Good shooting! Mike

Okay, before we all get hung up on single sentences or focus on whether this is about specific equipment,CRF/PF, ropes/no ropes, or for that matter condoms/bareback in a South African whorehouse, let me re-state the thrust of this question.



I see the world as a continuum, not black and white. You (the global �you�, not any individual), want a thrill. You want to experience �danger� � but not too much danger. We want to believe that we have a real risk of dying, but then protect ourselves and take the most painstaking precautions that this does not actually happen. When is something �too dangerous� versus being totally stupid? Roller coasters will give you a thrill, especially the new ones, but you are strapped in, surrounded by padded steel bars and in almost no actual danger. Take off that padded cage or a harness and see how thrilling the ride is!



Again � why is it stupid (or foolhardy or �not prudent� if one of those other words bothers you) to NOT take every precaution against danger when in fact, the very reason you are hunting dangerous game/sky diving/touring South African brothels/(your dangerous activity here) is to put yourself in the way of danger?



I don�t have an answer here as obviously each of us has to answer this within ourselves. I just like to sit around sometimes and ponder the inconsistencies inherent in the mind of Homo sapiens.

Jim - interesting topic.

I've noticed some inconsistencies, too...

On the one side: scope at lowest power or irons only, CRF action or double, etc. to reduce the risk, but when someone mentioned shooting a buff at 100 yards, it was SACRILEGE!!!

Likewise, the eternal topic of minimum caliber for buff, 45-70 flame wars, .375 is not sufficient, bigger is better, .577, .600, .700nitro, etc...

Then someone posted the possibility of using a .50BMG and some on this forum went nuts about how unsporting that suggestion was, and didn't respect the quarry.

Yes, we're a fascinating fraternity.

Perhaps some university psychology class could do some research here...


Here's my take, and I don't mean to insult anybody:

If I consider DG hunting with a proper DG rifle to be ultra macho, and makes me feel like "Mr. Ultra Tough Guy", then anyone who does the same thing with a much weaker weapon is minimizing the danger of my actions!

Likewise, anyone who suggests reducing the danger by taking long shots or using an absurdly powerful military weapon is encroaching on my exclusive "Dangerous" hobby without the danger - e.g. "They're Cheating!"

Rick.

P.S.
However, this by no means applies to everybody.
Notice how Saeed talks about his experiences with DG. He has shot 100-200 buffalo plus elephant, lion, etc. Yet he freely admits there were no charges, and he felt perfectly comfortable using a .375-404. He even went as far as to say that he saw no big deal about using a 45-70 on a buff!

People want to experance the thrill of danger, not the demise of.

Jim in Idaho, a very well put question. I might add that when someone had the temerity to question just how dangerous "DG" hunting really was, given the hardware we packed, backup from a PH etc. he/she was flamed, roasted etc. I am surprised that hasn't happened to you! I suggest that DG hunting is not, in general, that dangerous, but it more dangerous than other types of hunting, and as people say, "stuff happens". Of course, people are aware that sometimes the hunter becomes the hunted and that adds spice, but is rare enough that if circumstances are controlled, it probably won't happen to you. Right now, folks enjoy hunting, and DG is perhaps the ultimate form of hunting (wild animals). I put that in because the ultimate form of hunting is probably to hunt man himself. people do this with paintball guns, but to do it for real....!
Peter.

A philosophical question on a forum about hunting Africa.

Not entirely out of place.

I am the ruler of my world. Good as any, isn't it?

Reaffirms my invincability. To an extent, yes.

I suppose if we wanted to do it completely fair, fingernails and teeth would suffice, but it isn't about fairness, I think it is about dominion, a reaffirmation of ability and superiority.

Last year I got the news, Multiple Sclerosis. What
Ray said has a real resonance with me. Right now I manage on my own, the future has questions. Live your life fully, you don't get to save it for later.

I have few complaints, had a pretty good time for the most part. You should to. Now.

The idea of being in danger has never entered my mind while hunting any game.

I have felt very excited when following a buffalo which has disappeared into very thick bush after I shot it. But, at least so far, the outcome has always been the same, without any of us being put in harm's way, we have always found them dead. Even when using such a lowly caliber as the 375.

The only time I have ever felt scared out of my wits, was while hunting plains game in South Africa.

We were going up a mountain on horses, and in some places the slope was about 60 degrees down on a very narrow path.

My friend and PH Alan Vincent, with whom I have hunted many times, felt exactly the same.

There is always a small percentage of a chance that something might go wrong, and someone will get hurt, in any sort of hunt.

That is why I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that 99% of the silly charges Mark Sullivan videos are set up.

Because placing ourselves out there at risk makes us feel alive. The line is personal with each of us as to what level of risk we are willing to take. I ride motorcycles. I love the freedom and the speed. I also never ride without good protective gear and shake my head at the bikers in t-shirts and without helmets. CRF vs pushfeed so to speak. I watched my dad battle and lose against Alzhiemer's and vowed to myself that my goal in life is to live it, not survive it. It is not my intention to arrive at death in a pristine state, rather to slide to a halt, covered in sweat and dust, with my body totally spent saying "Man, what a ride..."

Jeff

Ray pretty much sums it up. There are those that do & those that pretend to do. I've done a bunch of "risky" activities, but I don't do stupid things. Hunting DG is a risk unless you're shooting from a rest in a baaki. Even walking around in DG country has an edge to it that hunting in Texas, MOntana, etc. does not. For me it brings hunting into a diff. perspective when you can be the one hunted.

8MM or More,

Sorry to hear about your diagnosis, but I love your attitude. I also agree with Ray, I'm going to live my life to the fullest!!! The rush of DG hunting, the stalk of a Buffalo through thick Mopane is about as good as it gets.

I think it's safe to say most of us on the forum like guns. We could hunt every species available to hunt with probably three guns, but I would wager there isn't a person on the forum with only three guns.

So we go about hunting by combining our love of guns with a dose of adrenalin, a sense of ethics and off we go satisfied we are doing it the right way.

To continue from my earlier post ...

it is the element of danger. The element/chance of death/serious injury is still present. Does that mean we should not do things to help move the level of certain death more to the level of certain injury.

If something goes wrong hunting lions with knife and spear I would say death not just injury is a distince possibility. Thus using a rifle period lessons the risk of death and using CRF lessons it a little more but the chance is still there.

Climbers that use ropes still die every year also. But many more are saved because of them.

Yes we like the thrill the adrenaline rush and we like to live at the end. Take a 30 foot fall off a cliff. Hurts like H$ll and trashes part of the rope and really gives you a case of adrenaline shakes. But without the rope I could not experience the thill again.

CRF is the same thing. Just extra insurance in an unsure world as a means to experience the rush yet again.

Jim,
I answered your first question, now you complicated it with that philosophical s--t, what you been smok'en boy!!

8mm or more...ditto with the news about your diagnosis of MS. I know several people with MS and, at least with the form that they have (whatever that is) modern medicine seems to contain it very well. They seem to live very normal lives. None of them hunt DG in Africa however! MS does not seem to be the "death sentence" it once was. Good luck to you Sir!
Peter.

Okay, I posted this on 24hcf as well and a fellow by the handle of Muley Stalker discovered my ulterior motive.

All you CRF guys are chickensh*ts! A REAL man uses a PF rifle while riding a motorcycle without a helmet after he's scaled down the face of El Capitan with no ropes! Nyah, nyah!!

Really - I'm glad this is sparking some honest thoughts from you folks.

See there, he is smok'en sumpt'en...

Be it skydiving, mountain climbing or hunting "dangerous" game, you are there to test your skill under stress and fear. You are not there to test equipment . You use the best gear possible so that all blame for failure (injury or death) rests solely on your shoulders, not with a manufacturer.

Jumping with a torn chute, climbing with frayed ropes or hunting with a Remington might seal my fate without giving me the chance to test my skill.

A young trooper once asked "What if my chute doesn't open"? He was told "Don't worry, you'll have the rest of your life to figure it out".

I like it Kurt. "D"