With stout handloads, either cartridge will produce about the same amount ft lbs of energy at the muzzle........

What he may be referring to is the use of heavier then normal bullets for the 35 Whelen. You can get 300 and 310 gr solids for this caliber, push them to near 2300 fps and get pretty good penetration. I think that would kill an undisturbed buffalo very nicely.

Factory ammo is loaded very slow comapered to what you can get form good handloads in this catridge.

BigBullet

In a pinch, I have spined two cape buffalo with a .300 Win. Mag. and both bulls dropped on the spot. Neither a .35 Whelen nor a .458 Lott would have dropped them any deader than that .300 Winchester did on those two occassions. Ammunition was Winchester's 180 gr. Fail-Safe factory load, and I shot each of them off-hand from about 100 yds. out. With a lesser bullet, I never would have attempted those shots, and believe me, I've taken steps in the years since to ensure that I simply won't have to shoot at buffalo with a .300 Winchester ever again.



If The Colonel thinks that a .35 Whelen is somehow going to be superior to the .300 Winchester for Cape buffalo hunting in a pinch, he's been sniffing too much glue or something, and I would never, ever take a .35 Whelen to Africa under the imaginative premise that it's going to make an acceptable in-a-pinch buffalo rifle over some other acceptable plainsgame cartridge. Neither the .35 Whelen or .300 Win. is truly sufficient for buffalo in the real world, and the ONLY three vaiables that can make either one work in an emergency is precise shot placement, an extremely well-constructed bullet, and a steady set of nerves. If subconscious fear enters the picture, you may wish you'd never booked your safari in the first place.



Historically, buffalo have been dropped cleanly with the 7mm Mauser, the .30-06, the .318 WR, the .308 Win., the .303 British, the .300 H&H, .338 Win. Mag., .300 Weatherby, etc., etc., etc. A host of less-than-ideal cartridges have done the trick over the years, but in every case it gets down to a "don't try this at home" warning that should be taken very, very seriously.



Quite honestly, I don't care for .35 Whelen ballistics for plainsgame hunting, no matter if I have buffalo on the dance card or not. Too much bullet, and not enough case capacity for my liking. I'd rather select a fast .338 on a magnum case, or else any of the .300s or .375 H&H.



The best way to deal with recoil sensitivity is the right mental attitude a well-stocked rifle, and plenty of practice. As Ruark said so well, "Use enough gun".......



AD

To muddy the waters a bit more...I'm looking at a 338-06 custom gun for my next plains game rifle project, according to my research: velocity wise, it bests the 35 Whelen with 250 gr. bullets, albeit the Whelen is .358" to the .338"...

I think the whelen is light for buffalo ,but In my opinion it is a alot more cartridge for big critters than the any 300mag,energy figures mean squat!it is a much bigger bullet and will make a bigger hole with more blood loss.Ask any african guide which he would prefer the 9.3x62(or 35 whelen)or a 300 mag.the 35 whelen will toss a 250gr x bullet at 2550fps no problem or a 280 gr swift at 2350fps.
It's a comparison of bullet weight and size verse velosity
much like the 378wby verses the 416 rigby.

I used my 338/06 on two safaris to take nine of the large African antelope and it worked very well. I used 200gr Barnes X bullets

So far, all we're hearing is idlle speculation and suppositional bullshit. Let's here from ONE man who has taken Cape buffalo with a .35 Whelen...........

AD

The .35 Whelen isn't legal for Cape buffalo anywhere that I know of, and if CTB knew of a place where it was, he'd have said so. Perhaps he needed some filler for that section of his book.

Likewise, the .300 Win. Mag. isn't 'legal' for Cape buffalo, but we know it's been used for them, as has the .300Wby (a lot!).

Cape buffalo aren't impressed by energy figures; they are 'impressed' by big bullets punching big holes in their vitals. As such, neither the .35 Whelen or .300 Win. Mag. is ideal, but with the right bullets AND proper bullet placement, chances are good that either would get the job done.

George

Just curious, and I dont have my books handy.
how does the 35 whelen compare to some of the old british 35's, the 350 Rigby and 350 no 2 ect? those were used on buff plenty, although I think they were considered " marginal"

I should not have double posted this I guess I just didn't know where it fit best. Anyway Mr. Atkinson made a great reply in Medium bores.

He said and I quote:

"In a pinch", a 308 will work for buffalo, I have used it and several other of its class including 8x57 with military ball ammo, and my 300 H&H has killed one buff for me and several for a friend of mine...

I doubt that you would see any difference in a 250 gr. 35 Whelen or 220 gr. from a 300 magnum of anykind as far as killing power......The exception may be the 300 Wby and it may be a bit better than either of the above.

Having been there I think the 338, 9.3x62 are minimum buffalo calibers, and I would much rather have a 375 H&H, as thats where "good" bufflalo calibers start..The 416 and 404 are even better and they are great Buffalo calibers IMO.

I guess the bigger you go the better, but the 375 is certainly good enough...

End quote


All of my books are packed as we have just built a new house and are moving in this week or I would find Col. Boddingtons litarary wonder and quote excactly what it was he said, maybe one of you have it and can look it up. I think, from reading all replies that it is bullet diameter that makes the whelen the killer that the 300 mag is not.

When my whelen project is complete I'll have the chance to do some side by side comparisons.

Bigger animals, bigger bullets for bigger holes. I would think a 9.3X62 a bit better than a .35whelen because you can get heavy softs & solids (286gr).
RHS, the .338-06 makes a great plainsgame cart. I took mine to RSA the 1st trip & shot just about everything from Duiker to Zebra w/ a 210gr NP @ 2750fps. If I were hunting close cover exclusively, then a good 250gr @ 2450fps is all you need.

The idle speculation continues.

If all else fails, look it up in a book and/or quote somebody else.

Heck, I did the same thing when I was fifteen years old.....

AD

You are right my mistake nobody has stated that they have infact shot a buffalo with the 35. However have you, or are you just speculating that it wouldn't do as well as the 300 did?

Ive shot American bison with the .338 win mag, .35 whelan, .35 whelan improved, .350 remington magnum (aka the "fireplug"), .358 norma magnum, .300 weatherby, and many other calibers.

The 35 whelan was as effective as the much faster .338 winchester.

As I was using relatively light weight bullets, I can only assume that is due to frontal area of the bullet which is only 10% less than the .375.

This would also explain the reported effectivness of the sedate 9.3 x 62. (Ive never shot one).

The .300 would not kill a bison with one shot to the spine (neck) as it would not sever the spine. You still had to shoot them in the head to kill them.

The .300 would kill w one shot to heart, which it almost completely destroyed if you hit behid the front leg (humerus). But this ruined alot of meat.

The .338 with 200 grain Bitterroot, and 210 grain nosler would kill w one shot to spine. Smallest caliber and bullet weight to do so. (Velocity 2975-3000 fps).

What surprised me was that the 35 whelan and even the little 350 remington mag from a 16 inch barrel would kill as well as the .338 win mag. Even when using junk bullets like 250 grain remington and speer.

The medium bores just have the right combination of frontal area and vbelocity to be effective on american bison.

I ended up using the 375 and 375 improved for next 20 some years on bison and they were much more effective than the .458 win mag, 12 ga slug, or .50 and .54 caliber muzzle loader. So bullet weight and or frontal area without at least 2450 fps velocity I got from the whelan and 350 remington, did not make up for their lack of velocity.

Cape buff appear to be a little bit thicker than american bison in both the neck and chest. Bison appear to have more heart girth.

What ever you use, shoot a premium bullet like the Bitterroot, North Fork, Trophy Bonded, Swift, or Kodiak.

I own a 375, 416, and 450 Dakota. I would prefer all three to a 338-06 or 35 whelan for African buffalo. These are good elk rifles, and worked for precise shots on american bison at PB range in a feed lot, but I would not haul one to Tanzania just because they can kill a buffalo with a perfect heart or spine shot.

Andy

Woodleigh also make 320 gr softs and solids for the 9.3x62

allen day,

Most of the amazing accomplishments in human history originated from speculation, BS and discussion regarding possibilities, ideas, choices, specifications, etc., etc.

Any open-minded, peace-loving, well read individual would understand these facts and enjoy the process that we all go through when we have a decision to make or special plans to consider.

From your comments, I would learn that you either know all this and enjoy acting the part of the biased mind OR you are the genuine article and just can't seem to understand human nature, even your own...

Regardless, your comments don't command much respect...but with minds like yours, that's a logical conclusion for most.

Ever tried thinking outside your own narrow vision?

RHS read your post again, think about your quote at the bottom of your own page in at least three different ways, and stop being so narrow minded.
Have to run.

It's starting to sound like the Crusty Old Curmudgeon Club around here lately.



-Bob F.

RHS I'm not out to win any respect from you or anyone else. I've managed to get by without your approved for my entire life, and likely will from here on out as well. At least I can say that I've used one of the subject cartridges in question against Cape buffalo, which is more than guys who are convinced that the .35 Whelen will work against said buffalo can claim.

You can be so open-minded that all your brains fall out. Sure it's fun to speculate about how something like the .35 Whelen would do against big, tough DG such as buffalo, but when it comes time to really get down to business and come up with soild cartridge selection strategies that won't get someone into trouble, it's time to eliminate half-assed expedient options and start talking about stuff that'll really get the job done under less than ideal circumstances.

If there's a worse kind of fool than the fool who'll die over a theory, it's the bigger fool who'll listen to the same nonsense, take it serious, then go down in flames himself over the same ill-conceived conclusions......

AD

Let me state this one more time. I am NOT planning to use the 35 Whelen or the 300 Win Mag to shoot Cape Buffalo. I do not want to use either one on a buffalo hunt and I do not like green egs and ham sam I am. I just asked for people to speculate as to why someone would say the 35 whelen is a better killer of big tough game than the 300 win.

allen day,

Thanks for the more detailed opinion. I agree that too many are too quick to follow nonsense and come up short in the process. So much of what we talk about here depends on our individual experiences.

My first PG hunt I was told by more than one PH and a few fellow hunters in camp that my cartridge choice would lead to wounded and lost animals. I didn't listen to their concerns and went out hunting. I was using a Ruger M77 in 300WSM with 180 gr. factory PowerPoints. In summary, The rifle, cartridge and yours truly performed well enough to take my five animals with 8 shots, 3 dropped with 1-shot and died quickly. A gemsbok took 2 in the chest and 1 in the spine to finish. A warthog took two to die.

Some of us are very much set in our opinions though and I don't see that as too healthy...lots of options out there.

We sure spend a lot of time here talking about cartridge choices...sure are plenty to choose from. Hell, from what I read here, a hunter would do well to just take the middle of the road with a custom 375H&H bolt gun with premium bullets and be done with it. That shouldn't cause too much heartache...

For a serious rifle as distinct from a play thing I would rather have a 300 Winchester over a 35 Whelen everytime.

Firstly, I agree with Canuck in that about no one on this forum will shoot enough real big animals to come to a meaningful conclusion on killing power between the two calibres. The many postings on this forum confirm that fact. We have people on one hand with a buffalo dropping straight down with a 375 and then another buffalo running all over the place after a 458 Lott. Of course if you could 20 animals or so then the 458 Lott would show through.

But the 300 is much flatter shooting and will be far more useful on those animals where a lot of animals will be shot. It will also go close to 3000 f/s with 200 grainers and 2800 with 220 grainers.

If you had a 270 or 30/06 and wanted a real simple conversion to a more powerful calibre or if you want fiddle about with cast bullets, reduced loads with pistol bullets then the 35 Whelen is a real winner.

Mike

no one will argue the 300 shoots flatter,but the whelen will handle all shots out to 300yds more than is needed 95% of the time,I have both but in my experience a bigger bullet is what I would choose a 30cal is a 30cal no matter how fast you push it's bullets.That said I wouldn't shoot a cape buffalo with either - what's the point why take a knife to a gun fight.that's what the big bores are for.For a better answer on this ask a guide with alot of experience.

Posted by allen day:

Quote:

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You can be so open-minded that all your brains fall out. Sure it's fun to speculate about how something like the .35 Whelen would do against big, tough DG such as buffalo< !--color-->, but when it comes time to really get down to business and come up with soild cartridge selection strategies that won't get someone into trouble, it's time to eliminate half-assed expedient options and start talking about stuff that'll really get the job done under less than ideal circumstances.

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Posted by ElCaballero:

Quote:

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Let me state this one more time. I am NOT planning to use the 35 Whelen or the 300 Win Mag to shoot Cape Buffalo. I do not want to use either one on a buffalo hunt and I do not like green egs and ham sam I am. I just asked for people to speculate as to why someone would say the 35 whelen is a better killer of big tough game than the 300 win. < !--color-->

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AD: The guy's just spit ballin' here. I don't think anyone (Mr. Boddington included) has suggested that the 35 Whelen is a good choice for hunting buffalo, just that it could get by in a pinch (which is not a far stretch considering all the support given to the 9.3x62 for that purpose, which is only different from the 35 Whelen by a hairs breadth). Col. CB didn't even say that the 35 Whelen was better than the 300 Mag...that was a conclusion that ElCaballero drew by omission.

Cheers,
Canuck

While I don't know Mr. Boddington personally and I am evaluating solely on his writtings that I have read, my estimate is he is running around 50% full of BS.

Recently I read a review by him on a new caliber, a sub caliber WSM cartridge, in a custom rifle. It shot like crap and wouldn't stabalize heavy bullets. He pretty much gave the rifle a glowing review, and left the distinct impression in my mind that he thought it was a go out and purchase one.

Another recent article, one on 375 calibers was weak at best, he didn't do near enough research before hand, and I walked away with the impression he didn't know what he was talking about.

I am also not very interested in his canned and potted hunts he perks into because he is a magazine writer.

I give him a 50% BS factor in that occasionally he actually does his homework on the reloading bench before writing his articles. And I will credit him with admitting in a article he blew a shoot, his fault not the rifles. If he would routinely keep this honest reporting in his articles and publications it would garner a lot more interest on my part.

As to the original question of this thread, my thoughts are under absolute ideal conditions, a water buffalo could probably be killed with a high powered 22 of some sort. Someone poping away from safety, with absolute perfect shot placement and total disgregard for both safety and and a quick kill. Is this smart, certainly not in my mind, is it ethical..questionable at best, is there some fool out there who wants to set a record or make a point...probably. But if I was going to spend the dollars on a once in a lifetime hunt for me, I certainly would bring the right hardware for the job at hand. In the short time I would be in Africa the opportunity at good shots will only persent itself a couple of times at best and would prefer being able to take the difficult shot if required, and know I have reasonable odds of success.

Your experience with the .300 Winchesterr is REEEEEEEALY limited...............

AD

I haven't shot a cape buffalo with a 35 Whelen but will 2 eland bulls get me into this discussion? My load is a 250 Nosler Partition at 2500 fps (chronographed not speculated).Bull #1 hit on the crease behind the shoulder at 150 yds. Hit a rib going in and going out, bull dropped in less than 10 yards. Bull #2 quartering away at 60 yds. behind the last rib through a bit of guts and lungs and came to rest on a rib under the off-side shoulder. Bull went 50, stopped and fell dead. Recovered bullet indicated that the slug had hit a twig on the way and got 3 feet of penetration going sideways. Kudu, gemsbok, wildebeest, same story, one shot complete penetration on side on shots, quarter away under the hide on off side shoulder, animal runs a bit, falls over dead. Bull elk, near complete penetration lengthwise, front to back at 40 yds., just fell over dead. Couple of dozen whitetail does, mulie does and a few whitetail bucks, one shot, dead, complete penetration from any angle including Texas heart shots.

Reasons for success: #1 Large caliber, heavy bullet a moderate velocity. Velocity over 2600 fps tends to limit penetration, I suppose I'll get some disagreement over this but that's another subject. #2 35 Whelen is as John Barsness would say a rifle "loony" caliber. Factory ammo is crap, so you reload, you end up using very high quality bullets and you practice a bunch. #3 All the shots were under 250 yds, under 200 yds on the really big critters.

Experience with 300 Win. Mag. is limited to what my clients shot back when I guided for elk, deer etc. #1 problem with 300 Win is that the shooter couldn't hit the wall of a brick shithouse from the inside. Mostly, because he or she for that matter, was terrified by the recoil of the rifle. #2I have personally witnessed some spectacular bullet failures with the 300, both with factory ammo and premium bullet handloads. Reason, the shot was at close, under 150 yds or very close range, under or around 50yds. You wack something at 50yds with a 30 caliber slug going over 3000 fps and any bullet will instantly turn into a pencil eraser size pill or just fragment to bits. This happened with Barnes bullets too. Care to shoot a buffalo with a 100 gr solid?

In the magical land of "IF" and based only on my limited experience if I had to try to kill a cape buffalo I'd choose the 35 Whelen, because of my experience with this caliber I have confidence in it's ability. HOWEVER, in the REAL world just hand me the 458 and we'll all be a lot happier. < !--color-->

I did not use my last Whelen on buff at all, but it took a lion, a croc and several hundred plains game animals in the US and Africa. I loved that rifle and would probably still have it if had not been taken from me in Uganda. I am in the process of building another one right this moment on a '43 Smith Corona 03-A3 for my wife. She weighs all of 110lb. and hates my 375, not wanting to shoot it at any cost. The Whelen will make a spectacular "heavy" gun to go along with her 308, and the recoil is much lower than either the 300 or 338 winmags.

Would I hunt buff with it? No flipping way. I love the caliber, but I have guns that are more suited to the big boys. Would I carry it in an area where dangerous game is present? You bet! IN A PINCH, I would say that buff is doable with this cartridge. I used the 280 gr fodder that put the gun firmly into the 9.3x62 class. It may be marginal, but I have gotten more than four feet of penetration at 100m into the chest of an eland, and I put one end to end thru a 445lb black bear. Luckily I have never had problems necessitating the use of this cartridge for any animal I was not hunting, and I hope to never have any, but I feel more than comfortable sending my wife out into the bush with this rifle and a tracker, knowing she can place the shot if she needs to.

"Let's here from ONE man who has taken Cape buffalo with a .35 Whelen..........."

I haven't taken any cape buffalo but have shot two large asiatic buffalo with a 35 Whelen-Ackely using 310 gr Woodleighs (2290fps). Both were well placed broadside shots(60 and 180 yards) with bullets under the skin on the far side. Neither went more than a hundred feet from where they were hit.

I used the 35 because my 375 H&H hadn't made it back from the stockmaker with new wood in time for the hunt. In a pinch, anything with an appropriate bullet should work. When I do go after a cape buff the 35 won't be my first choice for a rifle.

Paul

I own a 300 Weatherby and a 358 Winchester. Boddington believes that more frontal area makes bullets work better on game. That is the basis for the "35 is better than 30 FOR BIGGER ANIMALS" theory. It has long been known that heavy bullets at moderate velocities perform better than light bullets at higher velocities. Penatration is deeper because the bullets dont expand too much in the initial penetration. That is the theory anyway.

Remember the frontal area increases as the square of the diameter so 35 is not just 15% bigger than 30.

Also, the 35W does not have the sharp recoil impulse of a 300. Craig was talking about a woman wanting less recoil than a 375 would generate.

I think she would have been better served by a 375 Whelan, or a low velocity handload in a 416. They do make 416 solids in 350 grain bullets.

I like 35 caliber rifles because the large entrance and exit holes make for lots of blood when looking for my game in the rain forests of northern CA.

Rookie question,

What countries is it legal to shoot a 9.3 x 62mm on Dangerous Game including elephant and buffalo?

Must the ammo be handloaded to bring it up to required energy level?

Im still kicking myself for not buying a 404 on an Argentine Mauser with a beautiful peice of walnut a couple of years ago that was available at the nosler pro shop.

Andy