I just fired my first flat nosed NF solids in my .416 Rigby yesterday. I was really suprised that they hit nowhere close to the standard loads with the NF soft points. They were really way off, the softs hit two inches high at 100 yards, the flat nose solids were at least 2.5 inches below point of aim. Both of these were loaded with the same powder charge- 105 grains of H4831 SC. By the way, this load shoots sub-moa for three shots every time in my Ruger I haven't checked velocity yet, but 104 gr. with a 400 Nosler goes 2530 fps in mine, so the 370's should be nearing 2600 fps. I was hoping I could use softs backed by solids, but don't think this will happen.

I know it's a different caliber and a different rifle but for what it's worth, I had very good luck in my 375 H&H with 300 Gr. North Fork softs and Barnes 300 gr. solids. Both shot to virtually the same POI with identical powder charges.

J,

I personally would not worry at 100yds..Try shooting at under 50 down to 5yds so as to know how they shoot...You may want to seat them differtently..
I look at it this way...At fifty yds you are only 1.5 inches apart and if hunting buf all shots from 100 to 50 are inside of the heart.
25 yds.. all bullets should be almost touching...
Try closer shots and see...If all are vertically above and below I would not worry at all..
Mike

If it is just vertical diference of 2.5", as Mike says, that would be great.

I would shoot the softs to 2.5" high at 100 yards with the solids dead on at 100 yards.

You'll be dead on with the softs out to close to 200 yards.

Inside of 50 yards where DG is shot, they will both be very close to zero.

Scope or iron sight height above center of bore ... velocities of the two bullets with the same powder charge ... those are some more data to consider before the final decision ...

You can also try varying the load slightly, so that the POIs coincide. I would not worry beyond 100 yards.

I will be trying this soon in my 416 Rem.

I use a LEE crimp die on all my hunting loads. That alone seems to give enough starting resistance to even out some of the variation.

I'm thinking that I can use the Cup points and Flat point solids and they should have an identical POI without any load variation.

They actually are more than 2.5 inches apart, the solids were 2.5 below the point of aim, the softs 2 in. high, so they are 4.5 inches apart at 100 yards. I'd agree, if they were dead on at 100 I'd be OK, reality is for a backup load on a buff at 50 yards it probably doesn't matter.

J, give Mike B. a call at NF he has extensively shot the bullets and will give some advise...

Mike

jstevens ----- I had the same problem with my .416 Rem, using the 370 grain North Fork softs and flat nosed solids, UNTIL I figured how to seat the solids. When I first seated the solids I used the same seating setup I had used for the softs which was with the Remington die, this seated the solids very deep. I then got the seating die for my Rigby and seated the solids, this extended the bullet considerably farther out, but it still would fit the magazine. I also crimped the cartridges. With the new seating depth, my solids POI was only 1/2 to 1 inch lower than than the soft, straight on. You might try this, including the crimping, and see what happens. You may have to borrow another seating die if you don't want to readjust your present die. Good luck and good shooting.

I agree with Don G. No reason why you should use the same powder charge for soft points and solids. Vary the powder charge (if safe) on one or the other, and see if you can bring them together.
Peter.

I will give Mike a call, he may have been through it enough to give me some direction. I guess I was just startled to see such a big variation in POI. I started out with the solids seated .030 from the lands, which makes them barely fit in the magazine. I just had a few of them which Mike gave me to try the last time I ordered bullets for the .416.

quote:

Originally posted by jstevens:
They actually are more than 2.5 inches apart, the solids were 2.5 below the point of aim, the softs 2 in. high, so they are 4.5 inches apart at 100 yards. I'd agree, if they were dead on at 100 I'd be OK, reality is for a backup load on a buff at 50 yards it probably doesn't matter.

Man, talk about comparing apples to oranges.

NF, soft points are spitzers and very aeordynamic. The FP are not. Also, the contact area with the rifling is much greater with the SP than the ribbed FP, so the Fps will build less pressure witht the same powder load.

Try increasing the powder 1-1.5grs and see what it does to your POI. Also, do not ASSUME the same pressure and velocity with very different style of bullets. Break out your cronograph and verify vel. Only testing a signle load, not gettting instant results and then blaming the bullet is not a fair evaluation.

If you are working loads up for buff, you may want to look at the NF CP and FP as an expanding and soild combo. They should shoot to the same POA, as they have the same bullet/rifling contact area and overall profile. With the same or very closely load data.

Hog Killer

In my 375 I found that when I sighted in the the 300gr Nosler at 2540 fps to hit 1" high at 100 yards I had to load the 300gr solid I was shooting down to about 2475 fps to hit dead-on at 50 yards.

Are the NF cup and flat points a mono metal bullet or are do they use a lead core like his softs have?

I have always juggled powder charges to make solids and softs group somewhat together, most times they were within 2" of each other at 100yds and that was plenty good enough. Now, in my big bores I just use Barnes TSXs and forget it, they work on everything and I don't need to mess with multiple loadings.

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
Are the NF cup and flat points a mono metal bullet

Yes

Oops! I fixated a bit and posted a bit too quickly. Do what everybody else said above.

Looks like some more shooting is in order to adjust the powder charge a bit.

But, if I could get a load combo with SP's shooting just 2.5" higher than the solids at 100 yards, I would be very happy with that.

Barrel vibration/muzzle flip (up/down/all-around) ... barrel time/muzzle rise (in recoil) ... BC/bullet drop ... yep you gotta cook the stew a little longer.

Get those two loads shooting a little closer. Hopefully just vertically strung a wee bit if not dead on together.

jstevens
Try this. Load some of the North Fork solids with 2 grains, 4 grains and 6 grains less powder.
Let us know what happens.

Hey Jim

Other than the obvious difference in BC (.400+ compared to a brick), point of impact is barrel time. Barrel time is velocity (if using the same powder). Equal loads will give a little more velocity. In the 416 Rem, I needed to reduce ~2.5 grains to get equal velocity, when crimped in the front groove (3.465"). The reduction required was a little less when it was crimped in the third groove (3.585"). If I could have seated the bullet out another .120", I have no doubt that equal loads would have given the same velocity. But you can't do that. In the Rem and probably the Rigby also, you shouldn't set the bullet out more than the third groove. If you do you will not leave enough contact inside the neck to maintain proper alignment as the cartridge is slamed into battery. Forget about "distance from the lands". With bottle neck cartridges, first, second, or third groove; those are you choices. The farther in the bullet, the greater the powder reduction. If percentages are consistent, I'd start with a 4% reduction. Even at the same pressures, the solid was still going faster. You need to get the speed down. If you want them to impact at the same point, the solid will have to be going slower than the soft point, probably about 50 to 75fps (compensates for disparity in BC by increasing the solid's barrel time). I'm sure that each gun will have it's own preference as to how much reduction is required. I recommend that all you guys take the chrono on the first trip to the range , not the last trip. It will save you a lot of time, especially you guys with the doubles.

Don

As you will see when you get them, the newer style will probably work better with the basic roll crimp from the seating die. I haven't tried the Lee, which the previous generation was actually originally designed for.

Mike

Thanks NFMike,

Makes sense.

If every other factor affecting POI at 100 yards is kept constant, then higher velocity of the solid does explain it.

Faster bullet, less barrel time, exits the muzzle sooner, before the muzzle rises as much ... shoots lower.

Solids are usually higher velocity with the same charge, than the soft of same weight, for several reasons.

Most solids do have to have their powder charges reduced to shoot closer to the soft.

I like that advice about taking the chronograph on the first trip instead of the last.

To jstevens,
Here's wishing you some fair weather for the chronograph.

Thanks for the help. Hopefully we will have a bit better weather to shoot and chronograph in, it was 12 degrees Sunday when I shot these. I'll have to get some more solids to play with powder charges and get them closer.

Mike

Mine are just between the 2nd and third groove, measured 3.635 OAL, just for info.