In your experience, which is the more common cause of DGR malfunctions: the shooter (failure to load, not disengaging safety, bolt short stroke, etc) or the rifle (failure to feed, double feed, failure to extract, etc.)?

Chris

Rifles fail for a lot of reasons. I suspect that the number one problem is operator error.

I'm going to get into only one other aspect of this subject, and that has to do with problems caused by gunsmiths. I've lived through this side of things, and I've seen other hunters suffer from inept gunsmithing procedure as well. All I can say is, failures of this sort get me very angry, and if anyone happens to think that all so-called gunsmiths - "custom" or otherwise - are created equal or that true first-quality work isn't worth the money, they are very much mistaken. I'll list some examples:

Several years ago, I had a semi-famous & solidly-recommended custom riflebuilder who was noted as a dangerous game specialist build me a custom .416 Remingtom Magnum. I picked a fine piece of French walnut and supplied an excellent, original Model 70 action for the project. When I got the finished rifle home via UPS, it was very beautiful indeed. The problem was, that rifle didn't feed worth a crap and the open sights were canted to the left. I called the riflesmith, then sent it back for adjustment. Well believe it or not, it came back WORSE than when I sent it out. It was totally unusable, and in fact a good factory rifle would have been much more functional. It was pretty, though!!!!!!!!

I had another riflesmith tune and adjust a Model 70 Super Express in .458 Winchester for an upcoming safari. The work was very well done, the rifle shot superbly, and it fed perfectly. I put over 260 rounds through it in practice before I went to Africa. Well, I worked the bolt very fast for a reload while hammering a hippo, and experienced a slam-fire. We then tested the rifle further and got two more. It seems that in an effort to get a nice trigger pull, my gunsmith adjusted the trigger too light. He understood a proper trigger pull for benchwork at the range, but not for reliable big game hunting under all conditions. Quite frankly, I should have discovered this problem myself and had it corrected before I went hunting.

Example # 3: One of my friends had a very lovely custom .338 Winchester built on a 1909 Argentine Mauser action, with plans to use it for grizzly, plus general safari purposes. He went to a well-know and expensive west coast custom rifle builder, and turned him loose on the project. I was at his house when the rifle came back after something like a two-year wait. As soon as the action was open, some of that rifle's problems became obvious. The front of the magazine follower projected up into the bolt raceway like a hitchhiker's thumb. If you filled the magazine, then worked the action rapidly, the cartridges would eject back out through the loading port. Eventually this rifle also developed excessive headspace.

Here's what went wrong to turn this project into expensive junk: This gunmaker used the original 7.65 Argentine-size magazine box and follower, and the only modifications he made were to open the bolt face, alter the extractor, and open the feed rails and ramp. Stupidly, he negelected to follower Paul Mauser's original concept and install a magazine box and follower that were designed to fit the cartridge for proper feeding. Excess headspace developed because he negelected to have the action properly reheat-treated.

AD

Allen.....I wonder how many people who commission a custom rifle, especially those with very fancy wood stocks, ever actually shoot them. I have 2 friends who each average a new custom rifles every year to year and a half...all the bells and whistles with only the best components and fanciest wood with, of course, the "gold ring" scope on top. Neither of them hunt but they enjoy "playing" with custom guns and it's a hobby they can afford. The guns are shown to admiring friends and then put away and infrequently taken out and shown to someone who hasn't seen "the latest".

These are the customers the custom 'smiths like....repeat business, don't really care about function as long as the components are "the best" and it looks pretty.

I wouldn't think of letting someone do anything substantial for any of my firearms if I couldn't see several examples of their recent work.

Most of the malfunctions I have seen are:

short stroking and no round in the chamber, floorplates flying open, rounds double poping out of the magazine and the out and out jam...

A lot of this is caused by user error and unfamiliararity with the rifle but some is just plain malfunction and 99% with pushfeed rifles.

Handloaded ammo has also been a culprit, but thats falls under user error I suppose.

Thats why I'm a big fan of control feed rifles, but thats the hunters choice and I care not in the least which choice they make as long as I have my gun in my hands, when it happens I get to play......

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Only problems I've had are feeding oout of the magazines with push feeds, and they are more difficult to fix than problems with CRF.

Not a big concern with deer or jackrabbits but I would never take a push feed to Africa again.

A source of problems for those of us going from a humid climate to Africa that I've witnessed is wooden stock pore constriction in the drier weather. Changed the position of the floorplate. Fortunately we had a good set of screwdivers and could tighten the action screws.

Good reason to contemplate the use of a synthetic stock.

Bill, I know just what you mean about clients who don't hunt, but who collect fancy rifles. Actually, these guys have created sort of a cottage industry within the custom rifle trade wherein cosmetics rules the roost - not performance. That's fine, I guess, but their brand of patronage has lowered the performance bar considerably.

Fortunately there are a few master riflemakers out there who put performance first - always - and they have a solid client base of serious hunters who know the difference between high performance and gaudy, showy, disfunctional junk.

Form follows function!

AD

I read an article about a grizz hunt. The client wounded the bear, and the guide and 2 assistants took off to clean up the mess, leaving the client sitting on a log. The bear charged. A guide assistant with a 338 shot first. Then he stroked his bolt and his gun jammed (no detailes of the gun or why it jammed). But he worked so hard to close that bolt that it bent the cartridge nearly in half. The 2nd guide assistant fired his 375. The bear still did not stop. The guide fired his 505 gibbs and the bear stopped. The 338 was still jammed.

500,
That being my man in Alaska, Phil Shoemaker, gun scribe, Master guide and all around good guy with a 505 Gibbs...
I book for Phil, Grizzly Skins of Alaska. who by the way shot the 3 largest bear in Alaska two years running, with two world record bear to his credit...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Allen,

What I'm wondering is what happens when you get a slam fire in a 458? Were you too pumped up to notice, or who am I kidding?! That is bad enough when it happens with an '06, can't imagine a 458....

Phil Shoemaker has a fantastic reputation, and he's the one guy I'd like to book with for a brown bear hunt in Alaska, no doubt about.

Mark, we hunted this hippo on dry ground. I had three-down in the magazine, plus one in the chamber. I removed the scope beforehand because I wanted to use the open sights. I shot the hippo through the right shoulder (broadside with a 500 gr. Trophy Bonded solid) at about fifty yards. He staggered, I shot him again in the same place, then shot him in the neck as he was going down. I worked the bolt from the shoulder, and as soon as I slammed the bolt home the rifle went off. I didn't feel anything, but I knew right away what had happened.

My PH knew it too, so as soon as we were certain that the hippo was finished, we started working with my rifle to see if we could produce another slamfire. As a result, I retired that .458 for the balance of the safari.

AD

Allan,
Interresting stuff, sear overides the trigger and bang, poor trigger or poor trigger job I suppose..I have never seen or had that happen, even though it is fairly common and like you say "Custom Gunsmiths" are prone to beauty, not function and I cannot argue that for the most part....

I did have a .470 double fire on me once and that was the experience of a lifetime...both barrels at exactly the same time and they hit within 6" of each other in the target..The gun flew stright over and the rear sight hit me in the head and knocked me off the bench and across my shop floor, where I lay unconscious and bleeding for several minutes. When I came too I thought the gun had blown up on me, but it was fine...

Attribute that to a well known gunsmith, guild member, who built the double and it was beatifull work (I built the stock.) It was also non functional. It had some other problems also so I returned it to him and made him pay me for the stock..What a mess...

Now, I shoot English doubles or some of the better known doubles like Searcy..

There are a lot of good gun builders out there but you had better know who you are using and choose them with care and price does not always mean they are the best, it may, in fact, mean that they make "pretty rifles" that in many cases are non-functional..Applies double to big bores, of which few can build that will stay together.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

In the U.S. we have an advantage in that guns, ammunition, smiths, and ranges are readily available. It is easy for us to put a DGR through the paces at the range00make sure it feeds softs and solids flawlessly from either side of the stack, upside down, fast stroke etc.. For others it is not so easy. I know a very good East African PH who got tagged by a buff two years ago when his gun went "click" instead of "bang". I don't know if it was poor headspacing, weak spring or whatever, but he got rid of the rifle. He made the mistake of trusting the gun and ammunition. In this situation it is hard for the fellow to run a 100 rounds through it to test the rifle as we can.