OK, Here we start a new one, which hopefully at the end will have convinced me, and some others with a lot of doubt in our hearts.

On the thread about A Square, I asked about barrel wear from Mono bullets,the replies were good , and seeing as I am back in South Africa, I decided too do some research,

1. I phoned Fritz Rohr, Master Gunsmith, builder for SANPARKS,and co developer of the PMP brass mono solid that has been the standard issue to all rangers in Kruger, ad used on culling operations in Kruger.
2. Danie Joubert, Custom gun builder extraordinaire, developer of Dzombo Solids,

Now , this is the question I put too them, too allay my fears of barrel wear, with mono solids,

Does a modern Mono solid of brass wear barrels quicker and is it detrimental too barrel life ?

Too my surprise, Fritz commented that they have a 458 WM , that all ranger train with that they shoot so much per day that the barrel is over heated and too hot too touch, 16 rangers a day 20 shots each. NO BARREL WEAR THAT IS MORE THAN NORMAL,

reason for this according too him, modern barrels steel is good enough for handling these, the Older Parks rifles, Cogswell and Harrisons, Jefferies etc, the barrel material was softer, and consequintly wear was more noticable.

He said that in Brno/CZ rifles that was not a problem as they are all from the 80's too now. All older rifles were questionable.

Danie , concurred what Fritz said as well as the fact that bullet dimensions were critical especially in older calibres and doubles and he manufactures bullets for each old rifle only after leadslugging the barrel for dimensions.

Both came down too one point, in a modern bolt action monolithic bullets should have no more wear than ordinary bullets ?

So I rest my case, any one else out there with a bright answer let her rip ?

It seems I am back to loading my Monolithic solids for the 416 and 450 Rigby again

What if A-Square is a harder alloy than those in your expample? Or Barnes or GS, etc.

Are GS monolithics made of brass or copper? I would tend to agree that wear would be less with a copper or bronze bullet than say, a steel jacketed bullet, especially a grooved or banded bullet.
Peter.

Kwan, I cannot thank you enough for this posting on the Mono. I appreciate the thoughtful manner in which you explored this issue.

I also am a fan of these bullets. I also have had no wear problems in my magazine rifle nor my double rifle: Nor has my double (Beretta) shown any expansion of the rifling (a whole thread unto itself) on the outside of the barrel. Best regards, and good hunting.

Kwan, I agree with everything your sourse says, as far as it goes! However there are differences in monolithic solids, and not all fit their description!

As far as wear, like you, I don't think they cause more WEAR than other types of solids. The biggest problem with the brass, or bronze solids, especially the ones with not pressure rings, is brass/bronze transfere, in a modern single barrel. I'm speaking strictly with single barrel rifles here, new or old. It is true that the older rifle of any type are more prone to wear from hard bullets, or, in fact, with any bullet.

The problem with monolithic solids without the so-called "PRESSURE GROUVES" is that they are very hard for the rifleing to engrave. This, because of the extreme speed at which a bullet runs through a barrel, doesn't give the barrel time enough to expand with a bullet that is solid,and retract to it's origenal shape, and it is very hard, to displace the metal engraved by the lands. In the case of a monolithic solid with not grouves, the displaced metal has no place to go. With the grouves, the metal displaced on the grouves, is dumped in the space between the grouves, while the ridges still seal the pressure in behind the bullet. IMO, the barrels of the older rifles are not worn, as much as the bore is expanded too quickly, and because the older steel alloy is not as elastic as modern steel, doesn't retract completely after each shot. All barrels expand, and contract as the bullet passes through the bore, and as the newer steel is more elastic, and has better memory properties, comes back to it's origenal shape,after the bullet passes, while the older, mostly iron, barrels do not, and over time the older barrel becomes over size, and looses accuracy. It is not wear, but expanding effect on the barrel, causeing the bore to become oversize, that does the damage.

All that said, now we come to double rifles!
IMO, this has less to do with old, or new steel than with the sudden extreme expansion of the barrel, when useing an un-grouved monolithic solid! This has a very detramental effect on the solder joint between the barrel and the rib tied to it. The lead simply doesn't have the memory, or elastisity of steel, and is broken in many cases on the first shot. The reccomendation given by some to only use the un-grouved monolithic solids in modern double rifles is irresponsible, IMO! This simply doesn't make sense, because solder is solder,regardless of age. People talk about rifleing transfered to the outside of the barrels, by swaging, and there are examples of this actually happening, in the older softer steel barrels of both doubles, and single barrel rifles. However, this isn't wear, but physical damage caused by the steel not retracting back to it's origenal shape. Still it causes a loss of accuracy.

All this can be avoided by simply cutting grouves around the bearing surface of the bullet, that are high enough to reach the bottom of the grouves in the bore of the barrel, and the bottom of the grouves cut into the bullet just deep enough so the lands has some place to dump the metal it displaces by engraving the bullet. An adtional safety net is the use of Copper, rather than the very hard bronze, or brass. These two metals leave far more fouling in the barrels than copper does.

If all monolithic solids were made the way the GS custom, or the now defunct, North fork solids are, there wouldn't be a problem in any type of rifle, new or old, single or double! There is a big difference between a monolithic solid, and a conventional steel jacketed solid. The steel jacketed solid has a soft lead core, and an open butt, so the very thin steel jacket being engraved is eased by the soft lead underneath it, and the opening at the back of the bullet lets the lead extrude thorugh that hole enough to releave the pressure on the barrel steel, the hard bronze/brass solid without the releaf grouves does not.

All, only my opinion, but one that is worth considering before ruining a very valuable double rifle, or fine old bolt rifle, simply because a particular bullet looks good to you!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Are GS monolithics made of brass or copper? I would tend to agree that wear would be less with a copper or bronze bullet than say, a steel jacketed bullet, especially a grooved or banded bullet.
Peter.

All of the GS bullets are copper.

Yukon, that's what I thought! I have a bunch of them!
Peter.

/

ALF - agreed. Given that a typical cut rifled aftermarket barrel has a hardness of approximatety RC 32 - copper, brass, and bronze alloys are relatively soft.

C101 RF 87
C145 RB 48
C360 RB 78
C464 RB 82

MacD - not sure I've seen any evidence of higher fouling with brass versus copper alloys. My experience is quite the opposite actually.

Alf,

So if it's the mass of propellant that causes more barrel wear than the bullet itself then it makes more sense to use medium loads than higher pressure loads for a longer barrel life? Is that right ?

Barrels are cheap! Use what works.......

Macifej,

Barrels may be cheap but the paperwork we need to get trough to get a new barrel makes a new barrel very expensive to us here in SA.

/

Tougher barrel material and smoothbore will eliminate most of that problem.

Hi Alf,

Thanks for the info, yes I agree , an owning a 25-06 has proven that the mass of powder and directly connecteed too that speed causes greater barrel wear,

But in 338,375 416 or 458 calibres I have never needed too worry about speed, I was more concerned when the learned types(i.e.univerity proffesors in metallurgy) told us in VLT, that the solid brass monolithics had a abrasive factor of 25 times higher than normnal coper coated solids ??

That is why I have always had reservations about them , I used and still use them but only on Elephant.

The question was once again raised when Ganyana mentioned in the A square article the barrel wear they experienced, so I decided, for myself, too gather once and for all the true facts or about monolithics , especially brass, as those are the ones I use.

Now given that there are different grades of brass, composotion wise, I know we will not have heard the end all, but the 2 biggest manufactures of brass solids in SA, PMP & Danie Joubert Dzombo solids, and I say biggest as they both supply parks board wirt all their solids, which numbers in 10 s of thousands a year. have done their testing on different types of brass, and the one they are manufacturing they claim has no detrimental effect on barrel wear throught its physical characteristics.

Another point that Danie made, Barnes and the likes in USA, can and will not put a bullet on the market in that liablity / legal sue madhouse as they would certainly benailed for it ?? sounds correct too me.


Oh and the advice about rifle barrels is true in the land of the FREE and the BRAVE , on this side of the pond a new barrel is new license application which can take up to 2 years for approval, so no thank you Iwant my barrels too last as long as possible, hopefully my lifetime

That's a major pain in the ass regarding new barrels. You may want to consider that the cladding/jacket used on most factory cup & core bullets is 95-5 gilding metal. This no more or less abrasive on steel than brass 63-37 or pure copper 99-1.

Kwan/Walter,

Thanx for bringing this post up this was very informative.

Alf,

would you know what the burning chart would look like with amount of shots fired with a 375 H&H Musgrave 270 gr bullets and the avg powder used 63.5-65gr of S335 ie. how long would my barrel last for instance.

Ok, explain this to me:

1. Pick a caliber, anyone will do.
2. Measure the temperature of the barrel at a marked point just ahead of the barrel receiver joint.
3. Fire 5 shots, at 30 second intervals, with any smooth or grooved brass mono or any jacketed lead core bullet.
4. Wait one minute and measure the temperature at the mark again.
5. Wait for the barrel to cool to the start temperature, or cool it with water or air, until it stabilises at the start temperature, with no residual heat soak from the core.
6. Repeat the above test with GSC drive band bullets at our (probably) recommended higher speed and (probably)lighter bullet.

Even if the GSC bullets are fired first, why is the GSC drive band bullet temperature always lower than the smooth or grooved bullet temperature?

Also consider that GSC bullets will allow the least gas leakage of all bullet types - another sure fire way to ad to the ruin of a throat is undersize bullets.

Gerard, I believe what you say, but heat are generated by 2 individual factors. The one is the friction between the bullet and the barrel and the other, I think biggest is, the heat generated by the burning propelant. If I remember correctly the propelant generates its own oxygen to burn. I think that the large amounts of oxygen and heat causes the wear on the throat, due to oxidation. Does it make sense?

Heat is a killer as we see when shooting very quickly, with little time between shots. I did major damage to a 270 Win barrel with 60 shots, using jacketed lead bullets and shooting as fast as loading would allow.

So, take away the heat, or retard the heat build up and you have taken a big step towards longer barrel life. As to the mechanism at work with drive band bullets? I will take the result gratefully and leave it to the experts to debate as I only have a theory. My 22x64 (22-06 Easling clone) is now pushing 3000 shots between 4400fps and 4700fps and still going strong.

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Kwan:

The question reads "barrel wear" and the effect of mono's, not whether monos have the ability to spring the weld on a double, Not so?

.

ALF, you are correct, in the origenal question being as to barrel wear, not about breaking the solder joint on a double, but you are wrong it IS true!

There is a person who posts on this forum, who had the solder break on a new double rifle> he sent the rifle back to the maker, and they fixed it, sent it back. Ten days later, the solder joint broke again. He sent the rifle back to the maker. They fixed it again, but called him to find out what ammo he was useing, and as it turns out he had been useing Barnes Super Solids, An un grouved BRONZE monolithic solid.

The factory rep hit the cealing, and told him if he used that bullet in the rifle again, he was on his own, and the reason they gave was the reason I posted here!

Even though it wasn't asked, I think it irresponsible to not convey that there is more than one way that type of bullet can do damage!

Alf,

quote:

There is this notion that we should cool barrels between shots because if the barrel overheats it shows less wear. This is not true.

I am sure you wanted to say "it shows more wear".

If that is so and you are saying that a rifle which is fired once an hour, continuously for 41.66 days (1000 shots), and a rifle which is fired once every 30 seconds, continuously for 8 hours and 20 minutes, will show the same amount of throat erosion, I respectfully disagree.

G/