I know this has been done before, but I need your ideas. I'll probably not make it to Africa again, but there is always a chance. I don't mind admitting that I hate recoil! I have a 6.5x55, 7x57 and 30-06 along with other similar ones. These do everything I do now. I want a bigger gun. Do I need it, probably not, but I want one and that's enough. Now the question, which one? If I do get to Africa, I really want a leopard, and maybe a buffalo. The gun will be downloaded to shoot pigs and deer, so that is a conderation. I have narrowed my choices to one of two guns: A Ruger #1 in 375H&H or a Mauser 9,3x62 with a 25-26" barrel. What are your ideas? thanks capt david

Capt David

I'm a die hard 9.3 x 62 fan having used it with great success on African plains game, however IF I had to choose ONE for Africa, it would have to be the 375. There are some great ways to down load either so you can make recoil managable for practice and local hunting.

Stock fit also has a LARGE effect on felt recoil. Choose wisely and spend some $$ on making sure the gun fits you well so recoil is less of a consideration.

That's the great thing about living here, I don't have to choose one so I'll work on getting both.

Good luck in your quest. The search is almost as much fun as actually deciding and shooting.

Mike

Calibers aside, that's an apples vs oranges choice. If I ever got the chance to go back to Africa, about the last thing I'd want for a buffalo gun is a single shot..I think a 45/70 lever gun would be the last!
Given your two choices, I'd quickly take the 9.3 simply because it is a bolt rifle. I'd much prefer a 375H&H in a M70 or some other bolt gun, simply because it is THE classic African caliber.

Definitely go with the Mauser in 25-06. You can take any Husqvarna or JC Higgins in 30-06 which you can buy used for $300 to $350, and just screw on a new barrel.

The animal is unlikely to notice any difference between a .375 and a 9.3. However, my 9.3 kicks about like a 30-06, which makes shooting it very easy and pleasant.

quote:

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I'd much prefer a 375H&H in a M70 or some other bolt gun, simply because it is THE classic African caliber.

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Is the (newer) 375H&H the more "classic" African round? I think that title could just as easily be attached to the 9.3x62...

The former was a rich man's round, the latter was a working man's (settler's) round...

Hmmm....

In some areas the 9.3 might have been more popular among the settlers, but I seriously doubt that it could ever rival the 375 in overall popularity when local use, in addition to PH and client use are entered into the equation.

I guess there are some semantics here as to what is meant by "classic". I doubt very many settlers, in the early 1900s had 375s - more likely they had 9.3x62s or, more likely still, 8x57s or 303s. Since the 1960s or so, I would certainly agree that the 375 become more popular, but is the 375s more recent popularity the proper criterion to deem something a classic? I like the idea of the 30-30 and 45 colt as classics of the US, though neither are thoroughly dominant anymore. Similarly, the 223 and 308 are very popular, yet the term "classic american calibers" just doesn't quite fit them, at least to me...

I get the impression that the 9.3x62 was instrumental in "taming Afirca" because it afforded adequate power for all any and all marauding fauna and, more importantly, it was available at a modest price. Anyway... just thinking aloud...

quote:

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Originally posted by John S:
In some areas the 9.3 might have been more popular among the settlers, but I seriously doubt that it could ever rival the 375 in overall popularity when local use, in addition to PH and client use are entered into the equation.

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Based on my readings (Finn Aagaard, Taylor, etc), I'd say that the 9.3x62 was probably the most widely used medium bore prior to World War II. After WWII, the Mauser factory was destroyed and the economies of Europe were in shambles. Not coniditons conducive to having much of a market for sporting rifles and ammo.

The American gun and ammunition makers then entered into the picture will affordable ammo and rifles. (The pre-64 Model 70 in .375H&H comes to mind). As ammo became harder to find for the 9.3x62, the .375 H&H began to take its place. So, after WWII the .375 H&H displaced the 9.3x62 as the most widely used medium bore.

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See:

The 9.3 x 62 Mauser
http://www.african-hunter.com/the_9_3_x_62_mauser.htm

"From the moment of its introduction in 1905 until ammunition supply problems in the late 1960's, the 9,3x62 Mauser reigned supreme the "all rounded calibre" and probably most popular non-military in Africa."

"Anywhere from Cape to Cairo where there was a general dealer or store, 9,3x62 ammunition could be 'obtained'. This was of vital importance to the farmer or hunter who was often cut off from the towns for months on end by the rainy season, not to mention war or rinderpest. In fact, the 9.3x62 came to have a truly international flavour by NOT being a country's military cartridge and this further enhanced its general appeal. The .303 ammunition was not available anywhere in Africa outside of the British colonies, whilst 8mm Lebel ammunition was confined to French Africa, but wherever you went in all six of the colonial power's spheres of influence 9,3x62 ammunition was available."

"World War II marked the beginning of the end for the 9,3x62, Mauser stopped producing rifles, and supplies of good quality Kynock of DWM ammunition became unreliable in the early '60's. The Norma and S&B (Czech) ammunition that remained available was generally designed for medium sized game (up to eland/elk) and the solids were too poor a quality to take against elephant. The European rifles that remained in production were no longer cheap, and the new breed of hunter coming to Africa were Americans, who wanted cartridges chambered for imperial cartridges that they could understand, had a belt on them to "show" that they were a Magnum, and chambered in a cheap home grown American rifle. It didn't matter that the .375H&H solids broke up far more readily than the 9,3's or that the .375 produced greater meat damage with no improvement in effectiveness, and did so with a significant increase in recoil. Ammunition was available, it was cheap, and a new Winchester or Remington, was half the price of a Steyr- Manlicher or Husqvarna. By the 1970's the 9,3.62 was all but dead in Africa, although it remained very popular in Europe."

The .375 H&H Magnum
by Ganyana
http://www.african-hunter.com/375_magnum.htm

"World War II put paid to the budget priced yet high quality rifles from Mauser, FN, Bruno, Schultz & Larsen etc. Reasonable quality working rifles now emanated from Winchester and Remington in the USA. The 9,3 began to fade, and the .375 H&H took off in leaps and bounds. Soon American sportsmen made up the majority of hunters coming to Africa, and the .375 was the most common rifle of choice. By the early 1950’s the British authorities were fed up with sending home the remains of men who had tried to hunt large dangerous game with inadequate rifles. In quick succession all the colonies passed legislation making either the 9,3x62 or the .375 H&H the legal minimum calibre that could be used on thick skinned game. The small bore fans were forced to buy something bigger, and the logical choice was the .375. By the late 1950’s, the .375 enjoyed all the advantages of the 9,3 prior to the war. Ammunition was available everywhere, in the most remote trading stations from French Equatorial to Portuguese East Africa. It was the one calibre that a hunter could be reasonably sure of finding a re-supply for, wherever he was."

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-Bob F.

"The 375's more recent popularity" is something I don't quite understand. As Bob has just pointed out, once WW2 was over the 375 really took off and has never looked back! That was almost 60yrs ago, so I don't consider the 375's popularity to be anything close to a recent phenomenon.
Now, getting back on the topic...I already voted for the 9.3 if I had to pick from the two rifles mentioned.

IMHO, the 9.3x62 and the .375 H&H stand side by side as THE two classic medium bores used in Africa during the twentieth century.

In regards to captdavid's original question of "which one"?", for an American in today's market I think the .375 H&H is the more logical choice. More choices of rifles and factory ammunition. Also, the .375 H&H will be legal for Buff most anywhere though I wouldn't choose a single shot for hunting dangerous game. (I have never hunted dangerous game.)

[Edited to add:]
If the only choices are the two rifles mentioned in captdavid's post (a Ruger No.1 in .375 and Mauser in 9.3x62) then I'd take the Mauser with its magazine.

-Bob F.

I have not taken a leopard with a 9.3x62 personally, but my PH Ganyana once shot a buffalo with a 286 gr. solid Rhino bullet at 2400 ft/s, that not only penetrated the buffalo from stem to stern but produced a blood spout about approximately 3 feet high. The Rhino bullet is the one I would recommend, including the 9.3x62 cartridge.

Ganyana uses a 9.3x62 extensively, so anything he says about it has to be considered biased and absolute rubbish, and therefore of no value whatsoever.

quote:

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Originally posted by John S:
"The 375's more recent popularity" is something I don't quite understand. As Bob has just pointed out, once WW2 was over the 375 really took off and has never looked back! That was almost 60yrs ago, so I don't consider the 375's popularity to be anything close to a recent phenomenon.

---

It's relative. I suggested the 60s as the decade when the 375 really became widely used (Bob's info says late 50s, so my guess was in the ballpark). Still, that is considerably more recent (almost twice) than the 9.3x62's contribution.

They are both legendary African rounds, no doubt. Anyway... none of it really matters.

Back to topic: Get the bolt 9.3x62 and leave the single shot 375 at the shop.

"Classic" is a perception and if we look at guns made then the 375 is the "Classic"

Leaving aside whether you like the rifles or not consider the following.

M70 It kicks off at 375 H&H

Wby Safari It kicks of at 375 H&H

Rem Custom It kicks of at 375 H&H

Ruger it kicks off at 375 H&H

CZ not sure but I think its big rifle kicks off at 375 H&H

Go to the WR and H&H sites and it is all 375 H&H.

Sakos 1 of 80 rfles kicks of at 375 H&H.

From years ago, Wbys Safari Custom Classic was in 375 H&H.

Now go to Sierra, Speer, Nosler and Hornady and compare the number of bullets made in 9.3 as compared to 375

Now go to places like Champlins and Hallowell and look at the African style custom rifles for sale. You will be battling to find any 9.3 X 62s.

If Classic was based on widespread use and and number of animals killed then maybe the old 303 SMLE should be up there.

Lastly, if you were to phone up any custom gunsmith and ask him...I want you to make me a rifle in the classic African calibre...I would bet the number of times that 9.3 X 62 would be the answer would be somewhere around zero and the 375 would be the answer most of the time.

Mike

.

I will go for the 375 H&H but with a bolt action. If you want to return to Africa on a DG hunt it will be the wise option as some African countries only allows 375 and up to be used on DG.

Alf,

I am not comparing the two calibres but just saying that "safari" rifles all seem to kick of with 375 H&H and as such it is (or has become) the classic African calibre.

At odd times I look at the European forum of AR and the bigger Blasers and Sauers the blokes own seem to be in 375.

Put it this way, a new 375 and especially if it is someones first 375 causes them to get Hatari and Mogambo etc from the video store and go looking forStewart Granger hats with leopard skin bands etc I don't think that happens with the 9.3 X 62.

As to the 9.3 X 62 itself I think it has a bit of a boost because it is an easy conversion for M70 270 or 30/06 and Mausers etc and it is more "African" than the 35 Whelen.

As a side note, one of our guns/ammo import agents that brings in Hornadys....if you saw a new shipment arrive from Hornady and all the 375 bullets if only .01% of those bullets were destined for the Northern Territory or Africa then both places would be devoid of all life

Mike

I tend to agree that the 9.3 is lagging behind the .375 a tad and I feel the 9.3 is like a heavy 30/06 and probably not as specialized as the .375.......each has there place, I own both a cz's in 9.3x62 and .375 H&H but if I had to only have one of these two guns the 9.3x62 would be gone, the .375 H&H is a little more versatile I feel.

It is easier to find .375 H&H ammunition than 9.3X62 ammunition in most African countries, although the latter is fairly common in RSA for one.

The 9.3X62 is still produced by European gun makers in fairly large numbers for hunting driven wild bore and the occasional stag but rarely if ever in an African rifle configuration with classic lines and controlled round feeding.

Wink,

Of all the various predictions and bets etc that are made on what rifle will come in what calibre and what calibre will survive or blossom etc. there is no safer bet that than:

There is no way Weatherby will be offering the 9.3 X 62 chambering in this rifle


http://www.weatherby.com/custom_shop/HGI/images/Custom_Large/custom_crown.jpg

Mike375,
Or how about a hot new wildcat 416 Rigby case necked down to 9.3?

IF the choices are a 375 in a SINGLE SHOT or a 9.3X62 in a Mauser, I'd pick the Mauser, the operative word being SINGLE. jorge

Sir,

I've been using a 9,3x62 and a 9,3x74 rifle for hunting in Europe and Africa for about 15 years. I've used the 9,3s to take boar, roe deer, red deer, mouflon, warthog, eland, oryx, springbuck, waterbuck, hartebeast and steinbuck, among other species. I'm pretty sure all shots have been something less that 180 meters. Most recently, I bought a .375 H&H caliber rifle as I have observed ammunition availability for a 'traveling rifle'in .375 is better.

Although I have nowhere near the experience with the .375 I have with the 9,3 rifles, I think I have observed that the .375 has greater effect on game - on a size-for-size comparison.

Now, I must add, that I once used an embarrassing number of shots to kill a Topi , with hard lead nosed bullets in a borrowed .375. Based on the autopsy, I'm pretty sure my 9,3 using big soft nosed bullets, would have had better effect.

I never lost anything, fairly hit, with a 9,3, I'm not sure how important the extra power really is. But ability to locally buy ammo is a big factor.

regards.

Captdavid, during the time of my life I will always praise my Heym SR 21 chambered for the 9,3x62. I am very fond with this caliber and the reason is not only because it is my No.1 hog killer but what is more important is the fact that 2 years ago I have shot a buffalo in Zambia where I used 286gr Woodleigh solid, loaded aprox 2230fps. The bull was hit in the shoulder and went aprox. 40 yards and than he collapsed. We found him stone dead. The bullet "touched" the bone and went through the heart. The bullet sat under the skin of the far ribcage.
And what concerns 375H&H I am sure it has a classic old flair for Africa hunting but I don't see any practical reason to change it. Yes you can object that in most African countries I have to use 375" diameter for DGR. For this purposes I have prepared my secondhand double rifle chambered for the 450 Nitro Express.

quote:

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Originally posted by Wink:
Mike375,
Or how about a hot new wildcat 416 Rigby case necked down to 9.3?

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Wink,

If that becomes popular then we might see a 9.3 Wby which will be the 378 necked down and have the typcial Wby shoulder that always look like they were chambered with a worn out reamer

I think I remember reasing somewhere, might have been on Saeeds site, that some people were playing about with a 9.3/416 and the reason was some of the bullets available in 9.3 that were not available in 375 bore size.

Mike

I'd look for a used Interarms Whitworth Express rifle in 375H&H for about $650, more versatile than the 9.3.

308 vs. 30-06

280 (or AI) vs. 7mm mag

257 Roberts vs. 25-06

etc...

9.3x62 vs. 375H&H

All the same debate. Some appeal to ballistic micro accounting and insist that there are critical distinctions in these comparisons. I just don't believe that the shades of distinction are nearly so fine as we argue them to be. Is there a meaningful differnce between a 257 Roberts and 30-06 - probably. Is there a meaningful difference between a 30-06 and a 375H&H - probably. But taking this to its logical extreme of micro analysis seems a bit too academic...

If it can't be killed with a 286 gr 9.3 bullet at 2450-2500 fps, having a 375 with a 300 gr at 2550 fps would hardly boost my confidence. Now if you handed me a 416 or a 458, maybe I'd start feeling a bit better...

I can't think of a single solid reason to go with anything but the .375 H&H in this case. For my purposes, the 9.3X62 might as well be some sort of an obscure wildcat. Go into any gunshop or sporting goods store in this part of the country, ask for 9.3X62 ammo or brass, and then see what sort of reaction you get.

For the American hunter, the .375 H&H is just about as "American" as a British-designed African cartridge can get. Brass, bullets, and ammo are available darned near everywhere, and I'm convinced that a rifle in .375 H&H will retain its value better as well.

I doubt that the 9.3X62 offers any performance advantage on game, either (likely the opposite), so why not make life simple and go with the "Three-Six-Bits"?

But maybe you like to muddy-up your life, create complication where it need not exist, etc. If that's the case, the 9.3X62 oughta be your huckleberry.........

AD

Of course, the real solution is to own both a 9.3x62 and a .375 H&H!!! I do. It's more fun that way! I like both cartridges.

I like to think of the 9.3x62 as an "improved" .35 Whelen. (I realize that the 9.3 preceeded the .35 Whelen.) Serious power from an '06-sized case. I've never hunted with my 9.3 but it is going with me to South Africa in August for a plains game hunt in the bushveld (northern Limpopo). I'm sure my 9.3x62 will feel right at home.

-Bob F.

9.3X62 (9.3X74R) vs 375 H&H ??????????????

I have never been able to understand this controvercy! As someone has mentioned, this is apples vs oranges, and depends on what the buyer wants, more than the difference between the three of these cartridges. I doubt a Cape Buffalo would know the difference between them, if hit with a properly constructed bullet, and placed in the same place! Here you are left with the choice being which type rifle you want, not chambering. The kicker to this discussion is on the one side ammo availability, and on the other where the rifle is most likely to be used.

In most countries in Africa, the 375 H&H is minimum for dangerous game bigger than Leopard. While the 9.3s, properly loaded, and applied, are perfectly addiquate for even Elephant in open country, it is light for tight bush in most cases. That being said, the 375 H&H properly loaded is not that much better, in either type bush, and neither woould be my choice for a charge stopper!

Now if you want either of these rifles for North America, or Europe, then the 9.3s are plenty, but 9.3 ammo is hard to find in most of the USA, while 375 H&H can be bought in Wal-Mart! This is hardly a reason to buy one over the other in the USA where we can handload so easily. The "CLASSIC" status, is far more true with the singleshot, or a double rifle than it is with a bolt rifle! So if you want a 9.3, that is more of a classic, and is very usefull in North America, and MAY be taken to Africa then I would suggest the 9.3X74R in a nice S/S double rifle. I don't think anyone in Africa is going to object to the use of a 9.3X74R double on Buffalo, or cats over bait. The 375H&H,or 9.3X62, IMO, are better served in a CRF bolt rifles, and the question of legality disapears with the 375 H&H, though there are better choices than either of them!

I think when picking between the two rifles you have listed, the choices would be the Mauser. Check out this months Sports Afield if you need further convincing about not taking a single shot rifle for dangerous game. When picking between the the two cartridges, the more versatile and common cartridge is the .375 H&H.

If you hate recoil, but are a reloader, want a lighter rifle, can limit your shots to 250 yards and less, and have only an outside chance of making it to Africa (e.g., you haven't already started telling everyone you know that you are going) then by all means get the Mauser. Almost everyone I've heard from that has a 9.3x62 loves it. I've got a .375 H&H and the recoil is a definite step up from my .300 Win Mag. I've also got an 8mm Mauser that may someday wear a 9.3x62 barrel.

By picking the Mauser, ten years from now, if you decide you want to go to africa, you could then pick up a .416 of some sort for the buffalo and you'd have a great light-heavy combo for your trip. If you've been pricing buffalo hunts, a CZ-550 American in .416 Rigby can be had for less than 10% of the cost of your trip. If you can afford the hunt, then you can afford the new rifle.

I'm a huge fan of the 9.3x62, and I also hate recoil. But for buffalo I think I'd train with a 458 WM or 458 Lott and reduced-power loads until I got comfortable with it. You could download either one with Remington's 405'gr. JSP and have a fine hog and deer load. I would not bother with a single-shot in a DG caliber except as a curiosity, or as an inexpensive way to build recoil tolerance while shopping for a bolt action or a double. Just my $.02, Okie John.

I have both and will be using the 9.3x62 on European game and the .375 on African game. If I one day move up from plainsgame to ele and buff I´ll trust the .416 to do the job.

I used to be quite shy of recoil but after boha taught me some things about how a stock should fit handling heavier recoil is quite easy -I´ve even shot his ultra-light .404 without developing a flinch!

I am very fond of the 9.3x62, have been for years, and for the life of me I cannot tell much difference between the .375 and 9.3x62 in the effect they have on Cape Buffalo..they both poke a big hole in the bull and destroy enough tissue to kill...

However, based on the balistics the 375 H&H is obvious that the 375 is the more powerfull rifle any way you cut it...and would be the better choice for Buffalo or any dangerous game..

Personally I like the 416 and 404 for buffalo, but its all about choices and each of must make our own..

I have both a 375 and a 9.3x62, both great calibers...should I take a notion I would hunt buffalo again with either one of them...

My girlfriend bought me a CZ in 9.3x62 for Christmas. $470.00 delivered. For that price no one has an excuse not to own one. I think the price jumped up a bit this year, but they are available for ~ $500.00 + shipping. A little polishing work on the action and trigger and you are good to go.

Everybody has a boring 30-06 in the closet. Just send it off to Pac-Nor and they'll send it back as a 9.3x62 for not a lot of money.

Great brass, bullets and powders are readily available.

lawndart

Lawndart,
Does she have a sister? Would the sister like to live in Colorado Springs?

Hey prof,
Her sisters are eastern types (she is from Connecticut originally). I will likely leave retirement in 2006 and go back on active duty with a special forces unit as a doc. If I catch an RPG in the head Lois will come down and say hi to you. She will have eighty hunting rifles to boot .
I understand your desire. I lived in Illinois for too many years. I spent two decades yearning for a hunting and fishing kind of woman.

There is an old and honorable system that addresses this. When a warrior is killed in combat (or training) one of his friends has the duty and honor to marry the widow and take care of his children. The system works so well because the warriors are so similar in temperament and spirit. Thus the chain is not broken.

lawndart