To continue on with our review of cartridges that are suited for African Safari, the 416 was the second most asked about caliber.
Now, is it as good as most of us say it is when used on large plains game like eland? Is it the pre-eminent buffalo and elephant stopper that the likes of Harry Selby and george Hoffman used for so many illustrious years as a PH?

John,

I have not been to Africa, but to go there I would use a 375 simply because I have used a 375 so much. 416 has too much kick to use it all of the time and therefore I could never have the practice with it.

To me, if I wanted more than a 375 I would take a 460 or 500. Reason, lots more power and could do the same shooting with the 460 or 500 as a 416.

The 416 died first time around and will die second time around.

As an example, Hornady were going to bring out a 340 grain but did not because of lack of demand. Sierra do not even make a bullet in 416 caliber.

Strictly a nostalgia caliber and a good one ( as in 416 Rigby) in the right rifle and that could not include a 416 Rem in a Rem 700.

Mike

John, I'm headed to Zim in 4 weeks for my first cape buf hunt and am taking a 416 Rigby. I'll let you know what I think when I get back. As for using the round for plains game of any type I think it's gigantic overkill. My 338 has been more than adequate for impala thru eland. Having said that, this is going to be a one gun safari and there might be hyena and bushbuck on the menu and if the oppurtunity presents itself they will be taken with the 416. For my future hunts I can't imagine a better 2 gun battery than 338/416. I have now fired this 416 about 415 times and am amazed at its accuracy and the relativley flat trajectory. Great on targets...'bout to find out how great on game.

The 416 (and of course the 404) are the cream that rises to the top...Much better than the 375 from any standpoint except recoil, they kick harder and thats a concern...

the 416 with a 300 gr. at 2900 FPS or 350 gr. at 2700 FPS is a real sho nuff plainsgame rifle..and with a 400 gr. at 2400 FPS will handle the rest of the worlds dangerous game with ease.

Hard to argue thoes figures on paper or in the field.....but I still don't sell the 375 H&H short, it will do the same thing...I have both and intend to keep it that way.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ditto Ray - While you and I mildly disagree on which .416 (I�m a Dakota fan) I believe it is the best all around big bore. In my opinion, the .416 has an undeserved rap about excessive recoil. I use a sissy/recoil pad at the range and can shoot off the bench without any concerns.

mike aw - The .338 is about the most perfect plains game caliber around. I always show up with my .338 and my .416 in Africa. A hard caliber set to beat. Good luck on your Zim buff hunt. Let us know how you do!

Z

I see the 416 and the 375 having some of the same proponenets and detractors that the 270 VS 30/06 folks have only on a larger scale.

The 416 shoots bigger bullets then the 375 but cannot shoot as flat, same story as the 30/06- 270 debate.

Many who have a 270 will not go to a 30 caliber because the jump is not big enough so they opt for the 338 through 375 diameters. Same with those who have a 30/06.

Those with a 375HH will not choose a 416 because the jump is not big enough they opt for the 458 diameter and up.

I think this choice depends for most people on what they already have more then which is "better" I have a 30/06 and a 375HH the 416 has no interest to me what ever, I moved right up to the 458Lott which can duplicate the 416 ballistics and then some.

If I had a 270 and a 338 I would probably see the 416 as just about a perfect and logical increment in power.

Many folks will look at what they have and make the decision at that time for what will be added. I have never owned more then 2 big game rifles at any one time so I am strange that way compared to most guys here who have a large selection to choose from.

I prefer to shoot till the barrels are worn on my two rifles and know without thinking where those bullets will hit at most functional hunting ranges. So the wide selection of rifles has never appealed to me. That's my admitted narrow view on what works for me though.jj

------------------
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

[This message has been edited by JJHACK (edited 07-04-2001).]

.375H&H VS .416 Rigby VS .458Win Mag

Gentlemen, ballistics do not lie. Look at the performance difference that the .416 has over both the .375 and the .458. The reason why so many of us love the .416 is because of its performance on paper and in the field. Considering the wide selection of bullets, the .416 is very versatile.

.375 H&H
Bullet & Velocity__300gr @ 2550fps
Muzzle FT/LBS__3807
100 Yard Zero__0"
200 Yard Drop__-5.5"
300 Yard Drop__-20.2
300 FT/LBS__1884.3

.416 Rigby
Bullet & Velocity__400gr @ 2400fps
Muzzle FT/LBS__4566
100 Yard Zero__0"
200 Yard Drop__-6.2"
300 Yard Drop__-22.1"
300 FT/LBS__2470.5

.458WinMag
Bullet & Velocity__500gr @ 2150fps
Muzzle FT/LBS__4506
100 Yard Zero__0"
200 Yard Drop__-8.4"
300 Yard Drop__-29.7"
300 FT/LBS__2261.5

Z

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 07-04-2001).]

Now use the 270 grain 375 bullet at 2850fps zero'd for 250 yards and see how much flatter shooting it is! That was my point with the 30/06-270 debate.jj

I think JJ has a good point about what "fits" better in the existing battery, but it is still a better buffalo/elephant round than the 375 by any measure, IMO. And I would take it in preference to the 458 Win. without question. Now, get to the Lott or similar speed 45cal and that's a whole 'nother ballgame!
I've seen firsthand what a 416 will do as well as a 458 Lott and a 450 Dakota on buffalo and lion, and the big 45 flat outdoes the 416 in terms of knockdown and stop 'em in their tracks performance. But they kick more, and for some folks their recoil is a bit too much. For these folks the 416 reigns supreme, and for a visiting hunter it will do all that needs doing to any buffalo, lion or elephant.
I've paired mine at times with a 338 or 300mag and found I was well armed for all the game I hunted. Since the big rifle is used so little on a typical safari it isn't the most important rifle anyway, the light rifle is, IMO.

JJ, here ya go.

.375 H&H
Bullet & Velocity__270gr @ 2650fps
50 Yard FT/LBS__3666
100 Yard Zero__0"
200 Yard Drop__-5.1"
300 Yard Drop__-19.2
300 Yard FT/LBS__1717.6

.416 Rigby
Bullet & Velocity__350gr @ 2600fps
50 Yard FT/LBS__4737
100 Yard Zero__0"
200 Yard Drop__-4.9"
300 Yard Drop__-17.7"
300 Yard FT/LBS__2722.7

The .416 comes out on top of the performance curve every time. You may lose a couple of inches in drop at 300 yards, but you achieve a minimum of a 30% increase in energy across the board.

If I were working up a two, three, or four gun battery, I would use the .416 as a starting point and work either side of it. I would select a .450 Dakota, .416Rigby/Dakota, .338 WinMag, and a 7mm RimMag. I still think that the .338 and the .416 are an excellent combination for any plains game or dangerous game hunting in Africa.

Z

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 07-04-2001).]

Zero...you got the velocity wrong. JJ said 2850 fps!

ZeroDrift,

Your energy figures are too low in the first posts for 3 calibers.

We already know that 416 Rem will drive bullets of equal sectional density to similar velocities as the 375. But so will a 460 Wby.

The issue really comes down to recoil. Also, if all else was equal, someone using a 375 should have better bullet placement than someone who uses a 416 as a "one off" shot.

Mike

Gentlemen - Max published load for .375H&H for a 270gr bullet with 74gr of RL-15 is 2700fps. Every other load is max at 2650fps. What "safe" load generates 2850fps????

Mike you are correct - all energy figures were calculated at 50 yards and not at the muzzle. Thanks for clarifying that.

Z

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 07-04-2001).]

I used the 416 Rigby and the 338 Win last year in Tanzania. My buffalo was down with 2 shots from the 416. (the first shot was the famous Texas heart shot) The bull staggered back a few feet and then turned broadside and I then shot him in the shoulder. He took a couple of steps and then went down. The bullets were 400gr Trophy Bonded solids. My light rifle was a 338 win mag. My partner was using a 375 but borrowed the 416 with open sights when he had to trail his wounded buffalo. The 416 is not exactly a plains game rifle but with 350 or 300 gr bullets it would do in a pinch if something happened to the light rifle.

Z,

Around 76 grains of Re 15 will exceed 2800 with 270 grain bullets in the 375. On the other hand when I had a 416 Rem I could take it to 2500 with 400 grain bullets.

A 400 grain at 2500 equals 5550 ft/lbs. A 332 grain in 416 has the same sectioinal density as a 270 grain 375. For 5550 ft/lbs a 325 grain would do 2730 ft/sec.

So velocity is about the same as the 375 for equal sectional density, a bit slower.

Also, a 402 grain in 458 has the same sectional desnity asa 270 grain 375. A 460 will do 2800 f/s easily with the 400 grain bullet.

So the velocities for the 375, 416 Rem and 460 Wby are all about the same for equal sectional density.

Thus the argument you are using to support the 416 over the 375 apples equally to the 460 Wby over the 416.

Mike

I haven't used a .416 in Africa as of yet. I fact, I haven't even shot a robust Halloween pumkin with any .416 rifle.

I had the chance to buy a very nice custom .416 Remington Magnum this year. I had been considering several different calibers when the opportunity to buy this rifle came up, so I decided to go with it. To me .416 ballistics make a lot of sense for a buffalo/lion rifle, and I'd feel good about using this cartridge on hippo and elephant as well. It's a nice middle-ground caliber between the .375 H&H and the big .45's. To me, that takes in a lot of territory.

AD

Hornady heavy magnum loads get 2850 in a 24" barrel in every 375HH I have seen chronoed. It is also the stated velocity on the box oddly enough.

I load hundreds of 375 rounds a year with that same load using RL-15 and they fire perfectly in a half dozen different 375HH rifles of many manufactures. The shells will fall out of the chamber on their own weight. I know of one rifle which has a very slight tight fit at 2850fps using the same load. It still worked without a problem but it did have the very slightest resistance. It was a very tight chamber because My neck sized rounds would not fit into that rifle either, yet they fit into all the other guns used.

2850fps therefore would be unreasonable to expect from 100% of the 375HH rifles in the world so lets use 2800 and we should be perfectly safe. That even leaves some margin for error on Hornadies factory loaded published data.

As it turns out we still end up with the 30/06- 270 debate in larger calibers. Just as I posted earlier.

I think Saeeds experience with the 375 diameter bullet mirrors mine and thousands of others though. Just as in the 30/06-270 debate bullet placement wins every time regardless of which of these you choose. Unless you run out of ammo in the bush then the 375HH wins!jj

------------------
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Gentlemen,

I had some fun last week end at my brothers annual "Buffaol Wallow" fun shoot. The buffalo wallow was where our bison used to roll in the dirt, there by the name.

We had an african stage to the fun shoot, and I do mean fun, like the 30-06 belt fed "send me more japs" Batan model 1917 water cooled browning and colt 45 browning stage.

Also the dismounted pony solider stage with left and right handed 45 with the other hand attahced to a pair of reins and a 200 pound ex LA cop pulling you off balance. Saeed would like this match.

Anyway, the african stage was 375 minimum, 40 yards, IPSC target, hits anywhere count, time only.

Winner used a 45-70 double rifle, two shots in 4.2 seconds!!!!

I was second using 375 improved (300 at 2800 fps) with 4 x scope, two shots into 2 inches in 5.7 seconds, folowed by 375 open sights in 5.8 seconds, and 458 winchester open sights in 6.7 seconds.

No other hits were even close to my 2 inches. Most were all over the target with time pressure. the double was one way low and left and the other way low and right. A leopard would have had him for lunch. Next year we are using bouncing rubber beach balls!

My point is that anyone (me included) can shoot the 375 well.

Very few men can shoot the 416 well.

I take several seconds longer to shoulder, aim and fire my 8 1/4 pound 416 than my 10 pound 375 improved. Several seconds is forever!!!!

This is not the 416s fault. Just the Dakota.

Just finished George Hoffmans book. His two gun battery is simple and totally practical. A scoped 416 and a Remington 870 pump with slug and improved modified barrel (I think).

I am reminded of Jeff Coopers comment that the 45 acp was like the Roman gladius (short sword). the basic weapon of the day. Everyone should master it.

Andy

JJ - I was attempting to maintain a level playing field by using "published" max loads from my collection of reloading books. According the published information, using premium hunting bullets, the max charge weight and SAAMI chamber pressure for the .375 H&H is 74gr of RL-15. I checked out the ballistics information on the Hornady web site and they do publish 2850fps using their Spire Point bullet - never hunted with this bullet so I have no idea about its performance in the field. In addition, they do not list the powder and charge weight so it is impossible to make any correlation with known published data. I doubt that Hornady would be exceeding chamber pressured with RL-15.

I would not suggest that anyone attempt to exceed published chamber pressures in order to match the velocities of Hornady�s heavy magnum loads (including professional hunters). You invite trouble playing around above max SAAMI pressures. Sure you can get away with it for awhile, but sooner or later - KaBoom. Also, there ain�t no free lunch - you increased velocities by 150fps but you forget to mention the increase in recoil to 49 FT/LBS. So much for an easy shooting gun than anyone can handle. Might as well get that client flattening .416.

I am well aware that most people shoot far better with lighter recoil guns. We all are adverse to getting our teeth kicked in, however, some of us mentally handle recoil better than others. I am one of those folks. Accordingly, the .416 was a natural selection �for me�. I am a big proponent of the .375 for most newbys going to Africa for large game. But I believe that most people realize that the .416 has more of �everything� over the .375 (and that includes recoil).

If you wish to objectively consider the merits of both cartridges, you may learn something. Read about the African PHs that use it. Understand why they use it and why they have such high regard for the caliber. However, everybody has an opinion and their opinion is always correct. So, for argument's sake and the fact that I (and everybody else) have other things to do that are more constructive, I hereby decree that on this day, �The .375 H&H is the best all around cartridge in the entire evolution of projectile type weapons. Anyone caught hunting without one is deemed forevermore an idiot�. lol, lol

You crack me up JJ

Z - The local village idiot and proud of it.

Well here's one that will blow your skirt up all you nay seekers on the 416 Rigby....

IT IS NO GREAT FEAT TO GET A FULL 2700 FPS OUT OF ANY 400 GR. BULLET....AND THE 404 JEFFERYS WILL GET 2650........I have no idea what one could get with a 300 or 350 BX but it would surely whistle....

Thoes old gals have been so underloaded for years that no-one pushes them to max, mostly because 2400 has just worked so well. That's why I shoot a 416 Rem. It shoots my weak little 400 gr. bullets at 2300 fps and doesn't hurt my tender young body...I don't need another 400 fps of recoil...In fact it does rather well at 2200 FPS with a solid..

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

ZD:

Taking a lunch break from mowing the pasture. I'll have to set you straight about muzzle energy, nothing personal. I love the 416, so this is not a cheap shot.

KE = 1/2 (mv^2)

For a 400 gr bullet going 2400 ft/s,

KE = (1/2)(400/7000)(2400)(2400)/32.17
= 5,116 ft-lbs

not whatever you said.

You have to hit 'em in the right place first.

FWIW

Will

Can someone compare the 416 Taylor to the 416 Rem and the 416 Rigby?

I would be interested in building something primarily for the heck of it, but I would want it to shoot with hunting accuracy at least. Is it true that the Taylor can work through a standard mauser action? Then the only problem is the dies cost close to $100, and if I went with a 416 rem I could put the money saved from the dies into the barrel. If anything was to be hunted, it would be N/Amer Moose or Bears, but that is missing the point. Then again, if I were to win the lottery maybe Africa wouldn't be out of the picture...

So if you had to pick one for a "working" gun, which one would it be and more importantly which one do you definately not want to choose. I understand the hassles about finding ammo in strange places, but what else does one consider?

Mark,

This how I would see the 416s.

The 416 Taylor is the easiest to make up. Any rifle that isa 7mm Rem, 300 Win, 338 Win is basically only a rebarrel job. Cases are simply necked down 458s or necked up 338s. Neckled down 458s is the easier way.

The 416 Rem is more difficult. Ideally, it is easiest if you started with a rifle in 375 H&H, 300 Wby, that is, any full length magnum. Conversion of say M70s in 7mm Rem etc to 416 is a bigger deal than just a new magazine box and follower.

If all else was equal, the 416 Rem would be about 100 f/s quicker than the 416 Taylor. Probably more if the long barnes X bullets were used. So most people would prefer a 416 Rem but it just more difficult to make up than a 416 taylor.

The 416 Rigby is a big deal to make up unless you simply buy a CZ 550 rifle already chambered in 416 Rigby. Cases are also much dearer than for the Taylor or Remington.

The 416 Rigby would be the 416 most would prefer, but it is also the most difficult and expensive way to go.

So in summary:

The most desirable order

1 416 Rigby
2 416 Remington
3 416 Taylor

The easiest and cheapest to make

1 416 Taylor
2 416 Remington
3 416 Rigby

Seems to be a reflection of life in general

Mike

Don't forget convenience. If you don't handload or don't want to. .416 Rem can be purchased, not easily, but you can get it and it's expensive. However it is cheap compared to the Rigby ammo. The Taylor is strictly a load your own.

I thought it time to chime in. Of course the 416 Rem is the right answer. Why else would I own one???

Don

Don G, because you couldn't find a Rigby????
Bill

Bill,

I like my cartridges like I like my women - just fat enough to comfortably do the job!

Don

I have never liked the Rigby, (horrors)...

Why would anyone want to deal with that big massive action that adds a pound or more to the gun, a whole bunch of bulk, and gets the same balistics as a 404 Jefferys or a 416 Remington, thats packable...If I'm going to use that big heavy gawky action, and pack a gun that heavy all over Africa then you can bet your sweet bippie it's gonna be a 500 Whatever....

Makes since to me!!

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Don and Ray, I guess that the main reason I like the oversized Rigby aside from nostalgia, (and it maybe that it is nostalgic just in my mind), is precisely what Ray talked about.
The rifle is oversized, heavy and awkward.
It reminds me of myself!

Ray, you must admit that one reason that the Rigby is doing as well as it is, is because the chambering IS available. If you go back in time a few years and look at what was being manufactured to be sold to the masses as far as over 375hh cartridges, what were the choices to the working man with a family and a mortgage? Could he walk into his larger local gunshop and find someone who had even heard of the 404?
No, and the reason?
No one made them. No one is still making them, as far as I can see. When I go to Omaha, which is not a small town, and I go to see what rifle is available off the rack that is chambered for what we might consider to be a cartridge that is associated with the hunting of large, heavy game, I can find 375HH., 458Win and 416Rigby and 416 Rem.
Your beloved 404 is no where to be found.
Why is that?
I have the Rigby because you all say that the 458 is anemic, and the 416Rem was considered by me to be an upstart. This was in my ignorance of the similarities to Mr. Hoffmans fine cartridge. I wanted something bigger than my 375HH, so what do you logically do? Get the Rigby and size and ammo price be damned.

I would love to see 404s start springing up on our dealers racks. But it ain't happening now, and I don't foresee it in the future. Hope that I am wrong. But for a working man to get D'arcy Echols (sp) to build a primo DGR is ludicrous.
WE DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF MONEY!!!

But we can pony up enough to make a M77 Rigby find its way into the safe. And for that, I am glad.

Just don't ask me if I had it all to do over if I would change anything.

Best to you all, Bill

Now where is George Hoffman when you need him? I believe he has an opinion or two on the .416 bore.

Bill, to quote you:
"The rifle is oversized, heavy and awkward.
It reminds me of myself!"

Now, don't be so hard on yourself. I did not find you to be oversized.

Thanks Jim (I think)

I have used a 416 Remington in three African safaris, shot from warthog to elephant, and being a one-rifle convert, I think it is the best choice if buff, elephant or hippo are on your menu, provided you do not think it is a beanfield rifle...

Antonio

Antonio:

You will have to explain to me what a "beanfield" rifle is, flat shooting?

The only reason to pick a Rem/Hoffamn over a Rigby is the increase in magazine capacity. The lower pressure of the Rigby doesn't mean much, either, in practical terms.

I can only get 3 Rigby's in the CZ magazine, but 5 Lotts. I am tempted to agree with Norbert, that a one rifle battery might be the Lott if you are in ele country, whether hunting them or not.

Respectfully,
Additional magazine capacity is not the only advantage offered by the .416 Rem. My .416 Rem has a "Desert Camo" McMillan stock and comes in @ < 8 lbs., with scope. I can carry it all day and kill anything I come across just as well as whoever, carrying whatever, .416. Cumulatively, the carrying of extra pounds of "nostalgia" may prove to be a critical factor while hunting day after day in tropical heat.
I like all the .416's. I simply feel the Remington makes the most sense, overall. Nothing is lost in performance while a trimmer, lighter tool may be enjoyed. All things considered, it is arguably the best general purpose heavy game cartridge out there.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 07-07-2001).]

Nick! Where have you been?

I hate to be disagreeable, but to be a master of all trades is to be a master of none. My preference is to choose a specialty caliber for the task at hand. Because a 270 shoots flatter than a 30-06, I have never used a 30-06 on deer (it is not the best specialist). These days I don't even use a 270 unless I want a light rifle, beause the 7mm STW does the job better by reaching out another 50 yards or so.

Likewise, the 416 may be an excellent compromise round, but that would also mean that it is probably not the best round for any particular task.

500grains,

There is one thing wrong with that theory.

The rifle that is used all the time is one (and its caliber) you become very familiar with.

eg. by any measure, the 270 would be regarded as superior for shooting kangaroos at all ranges, especially on open flat country, thana 375.

Yet my "hits to shots fired" is better with a 375 than a 270. One thing I put that down to is a more constant use of the 375, as I use it for everything, including tin cans.

Mike

Bill,
One thing for sure, everyone is making all the new rounds on 404 based brass and that assures me of a lifetime of available brass..

There are a few companys that have 404's out now...Hyem and another company (Mauser) that slips my mind, all custom makers will build one...Lots of bullets available so I feel secure in owning a 404..granted its not for everyone, but neither is the 416 Rigby. One doesn't just pop into Joes country store and say "Gimme a box of 416 Rigbys" ya know.

The Rigbys a grand ole cartridge, made famous by one PH and a author of a book, who didn't know beans...

The 404 on the other hand was made traditional by hard crusted Africans who used it much as we used the 30-30, it is truly the gun of the nostalgic..so there!

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, exactly my point. If I wanted a 404, I have to either contact a maker that I've seldom heard of or one that even you can't remember the name of. Either way I am not going to walk into Joes gun store and find a 404 on the shelf. But I can find Rigbys. I would be most happy with a smaller, lighter rifle in the +.40 class than the Rigby. But I can go to 2 different gun stores in Lincoln and buy Rigby ammo off the shelf. I have not yet in my life seen 404 ammo on any shelf anywhere. I can't even remember seeing ammo in a catalog.
Maybe the Rem version is the end all answer to this question. I don't know.
I remember you saying that you have heard of recent Rem factory ammo not attaining quoted factory velocity figures, which then brings up the specter surrounding the 458Win. It needs to be reloaded to be what it was designed to be. If it needs to be loaded to very high pressure to attain useful velocity, then is this the best? Maybe. Maybe not. Again, I don't know, but would like to.
I know that your view point is valid based on your experience with the 404. I'm just saying that yours will be a comparatively lonely voice extolling the 404, simply because the chambering is not readily available to people interested in owning a reasonably priced +.40 bore.
Best to you as always, Bill

Nickudu:

You must be suffering from PSD or pre-55 disease or something. What does a Rem. vs. Rigby have to do whether the rifle weighs 8 lbs. or not?

I would think you can take more recoil abuse than most. I'm not sure I can handle it, but I need to lighten up the 416 to something near 8 - 8 1/2 lbs.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-07-2001).]