Ladies and Gentlemen:

I watched the video of a PH shooting a charging bull elephant at close range with a 375 H&H, posted on this forum. I assume the bullet was 270-300 grains. One shot was high, penetrating the head above the brain, and used as a warning shot.

I have read about heavier bullet weights (400-1000 grains), causing a brain concussion in elephants where the bullet missed the brain and knocked the elephant out for some seconds to a few minutes as described in John Taylor's books. In your experience, would a heavier bullet (400 grains and up) have knocked the elephant out long enough to make a discrete exit? Does the temperament of the elephant make a difference?

I have no experience in this realm, but am curious.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Presume you are refering to Gordon Duncan...300grn Barnes super solid (old style) bullet used. A heavier bullet might have turned the elephant on the first shot. Certainly a .458 Lott or bigger would have caused a break in the charge.

Knock out??? Elephants are funny, and have seen them knocked out with a .375 and not knocked out with a .700 that didn't miss the brain by much.

Gordon has subsiquently bought my .458 Lott

The shot has to be close to the brain to have a "knock out" effect on cows, closer than even a "warning shot" into the high head honeycomb.

Bulls can absorb a whole lot more energy without any visible or perceptable effect.

I've knocked down or out some cows with less than perfect brian shots. I was shooting .458" 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2145fps or 450gr North Fork flat nose solids at 2200fps.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

Gordon has subsiquently bought my .458 Lott

And you doubters of using enough gun!

With all due respect to the previous posters, and you know who they are , there are no guarateed rules on whether one is going to turn or knock down an elephant.

Usually the bigger the bullet, the better the chance. Using a 375 H&H or a 9.3x 74R, like I did, is just asking for trouble.

It seems that everything that John Taylor said in his books 60 years ago keeps on getting re-discovered.

It is all there, Laddie, in my Daddy's book.

Will, no worries, if you were referring to me, I was just being facitious. I think most PHs and elephant hunters who maybe started out with a light callibre , ultimately preferred going for something larger, especially once you have seen your life flash before you I would think!

I may have missed it in the previous thread, so I'll stick it here: Are there any negative short or long-term repercussions of puching a hole through the top of an elephant's head in attempt to turn him away? I'm a little curious about this practice and wonder how often and how successfully it's used.

Two PH's that I know who do a lot of elephant hunts are moving up in caliber. I wouldn't care to hunt them with less than a .458 minimum.

DesertRam

A shot above the brain on an ele often causes the head to jerk back and breaks a charge. This then gives you time to re-load and the elephant time to reconsider the wisdom of a charge. Doing problem animal control work in the tribal areas around the parks it is a technique that is frequently used.

Ideally, one puts a bullet through the outstretched ear when the charge is still developing and the ele gets a fright and wonders off with an elephant sized ear ache - not to return to the fields for the rest of that season.

Circumstances don't always add up to ideal

Have found that the high head shot works well on cows. A double tap with my F.N .308 or a single round from my 9,3 was usually more than they wanted to know about.

Bulls...head is alot bigger and much more air space in the skull. (the honeycomb on a female is 1/2 full of mucus so there is some hydrostatic transmission of the "shock" - In bulls the maount of Mucus appears to be the same- just spread over a much larger skull, therefore less efficient transmission). Only tried to turn a bull once with a high head shot using my 9,3. After that I simply accepted that I would have to shoot to kill and sort out the mess afterwards.

What damage to the animal? NILL. Elephants recover remarkably well from many bullet wounds, and a shot above the brain does no lasting damage that I can see. At sengwa I used to bump into a well known cow that recieved a 9,3 to the head in my first week there. When I left 5 years later she was still a known nonsense but had calmed down considerably. (she used to charge - and squash if she could catch- any green landrover. The bullet changed her mind on that.

A bullet low, below the brain is a trouble. It will damage teeth or tusks and you have an instant rouge in the making. Government rules were- a shot above the brain required no paperwork (same as a lung shot that didn't work within 30 minutes). A low shot in the face required you to follow up and destroy the animal.

31 bullets is the greatest number of AK bullets recovered from a healthy elephats lungs, head and and intestines on the proficiency exam. It is also the most shots I have seen fired on the Proficiency exam to bring down an elephant. At least 10 of those 31 on the exam were in the head- and had no effect whatsoever (.375 and .416 Hoffman)

After my last Ele hunt were we had to stop a charging cow in the thickest Jesse, my PH ended up buying my 470NE.
Although my first shot missed the brain it certainly put her brakes on..

Ganyana, thanks for the insightful information. Obviously, I'm a relative novice on Africa, particularly when it comes to elephants. It's a remarkable animal that can take a 300 grain bullet through the noggin and keep on truckin'. I've never been terribly excited about hunting hunting elepants, but they become more and more interesting them more I hang out here. Thanks again!

Ganyana!

I wonder if that cow you mentioned at Sengwa Research Area is still there and the same one that punctured George Hallamore's Cruiser bonnet and grill two years ago. That happened along the research area border road with Charisa. If so it now has a couple of 7.62 bullets in it's head to go along with your 9.3.



465H&H

465- Quite possibly. She took over a herd as matriarch the year after I moved to Head office. Saw her every new year until I stopped going to Sengwa three years back. She was always a prize bitch but we had an understanding!

I don't think its sporting to fire a warning shot INTO the head of an elephant to start with, the animal could easily die of infection, not a pretty sight...wounding an animal is just not cricket under any circumstances in my book.

Turning a charge and then finishing the job is another story altogether, thats within the fair play rules I suppose. I would prefer to kill it if I was going to shoot it.

It is my "opinion" that to "knock out" an elephant with any kind of reliability you must at least graze the brain with any caliber, so much is assumed because its fairly difficult to disect and elephant to really see what and why things happen..

Depends on what you mean, Ray, by "graze the brain". You can definitely knock out an elephant by missing the brain. I've done it as have a number of other guys here but it helps to get close to the brain with a heavy bullet and larger calibers SEEM to help a bit more. Of course you are aiming for the brain but it's a difficult target from the front or quartering angles.

Interesting subject,anyone got a good web site that shows the frontal brain shot diagrams so a guy could get a better idea of things??

Buy Buzz Charlton's DVD. It will help answer your questions and many that you haven't even considered yet.

http://www.buzzcharltonsafaris.com/dvd.htm

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
Buy Buzz Charlton's DVD. It will help answer your questions and many that you haven't even considered yet.

http://www.buzzcharltonsafaris.com/dvd.htm

This is good advice, and the DVD is entertaining as hell as well as instructional.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by chopper12:
Interesting subject,anyone got a good web site that shows the frontal brain shot diagrams so a guy could get a better idea of things??

In all honesty you should buy my book, it has a better description of placing the brain shot on elephant. Then if you buy the DVD you can see me practicing what I preach.

In addition to the two recomendations above I would also suggest Ron Thompson's book "Mahobhoh" and Richard Harland's book "Ndlovu". for excellent descriptions of elephant brain shots.

465H&H

What I have always found interesting is that the shoot placement recommendations by Ron Thompson, Richard Harland, Bill Stewart, Buzz Charlton and Kevin Robertson all vary a bit. When you look at comparable pictures some are a bit higher than others, some are lower, . . . , not an exact science.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
What I have always found interesting is that the shoot placement recommendations by Ron Thompson, Richard Harland, Bill Stewart, Buzz Charlton and Kevin Robertson all vary a bit. When you look at comparable pictures some are a bit higher than others, some are lower, . . . , not an exact science.

Mike!
It always surprises me to see a frontal bullet hit that appears too low or too high but results in a classic brain shot elephant. I believe it has to do with the camera and hunter being at different heights. We see it from the cameras perspective and not the hunters. I thought that Charlton's placement of the brain was a bit high but he has a lot more experience at the game than me. So I don't know.

On the photos or drawings a lot depends on how we visualize the angle. Harland warns of this in his preface to brain shot locations. When the broom stick is shown through the ear holes I usually agree with the shot placement.

465H&H

If you go back and look at that John Sharp video at Minute 13:00, that bull has its head up slightly and his cheekbones are horizontal. To reach the brain (stop the video before he shoots to make it a learning experience!) which is in the back of the skull the guy needs to shoot up to the brain, or about four inches below the eyes.

I don't know whether someone was telling him where to shoot, or he knew where to shoot, or he just lucked out, but that is where to shoot and he brained it just like it is suppose to be done.

Back to the Sharp video, at Minute 13:53.

After "hours" of deciding where to shoot, the guy blows the side brain shot.

The bullet knocks the bull off his feet but is not dead, as seen by the bulls reaction, and as is shown subsequently in the video.

The guy at Minute 18:14 blows that shot big time.

The situation at Minute 19:00 is similar to the first frontal shot. The elephant has its head raised and to reach the brain he needs to shoot 3 or 4 inches below the eyes.

He does and brains that young bull.

Hey will, what video clip or what DVD are you watchas you post comentary? It sounds pretty good and I'd like to get a copy.

JPK

The one in the post about John Sharp video.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/725101238

Thanks!

/

Dear Alf:

Thank you for the wonderful forensic and physiological answer to my question.

It is amazing how nature in the form of an elephant skull and the Romans in the form of the dome of the Pantheon have solved two different physics problems both using honeycomb construction. Of course, you could add some modern forms of tank armour to the equation, too, as far as deflecting concussion.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Interesting info Alf. My situation seems to bear this info out as the first bullet did not touch the brain but just slightly in front of it (on a quartering to angle) and the elephant reacted AS IF brainshot... but required additional anchoring shots. I believe that if I had not fired again, she would have regained her feet. What's interesting to me is that these events were spread out over a couple of minutes (we were dealing with a herd of cows that were collapsing inward and we were in the middle).