It seems that the 404 has a fair following here on AR, and will soon have a "re-birth" with Hornady and Norma offering loaded ammo as well as others offering improved bullet selection. The 416s (Rigby and Rem) have enjoyed incredible success and will no doubt continue to. What does the 404 offer if you already own a 416? Softer recoil, easier to manage, slightly smaller package / weight; but not quite as much penetration? Help me with the benefits of this cartridge. Worth the time and investment?

The 404 has been my favorite cartridge as anyone on this blog can tell you..I have been its champion for many years, but that has slowly resided as it is hard to make them feed 110% unless you have a very expensive action made specifically for the cartridtge...Now with Hornady makeing bullets that may all change in the near future and that would be a good thing, and I would buy a new rifle in .404 for sure..

BUT, it offers nothing more than Nostalgia over the 416 Rem, or the 416 Ruger..In fact the .416 will out penetrate the 404 with 400 gr. bullets everything being equal...

The .416 Rigby is another cartridge that is of nostalgic value and realistically its too big and bulky rifle for a 40 caliber IMO. It is loaded as the balistic twin of the .416 Rem for the most part, but is capable of much higher velocity but at the cost of horrendous recoil, same can be said for the .404..

I much prefer the std. 98 Mauser and pre 64 M-70 for the 416 Rem, 404 , 416 Ruger..If I had an action large enough for the .416 Rigby then I would opt for a 500 Jefferys or 505 gibbs.

From a practical standpoint the .416 Rem. is still king in a control feed 40 caliber rifle...My personal gun today is a .416 Ruger Custom rifle, and I really like this one.

Make no mistake, nostalgia is a big part of my life as a hunter, and that is part of the game and I feel sorry for those that have missed out on this wonderful experience of shooting game with such historically famous rounds, the cartridges have earned our respect, long live the .416 Rigbys and 404 Jefferys.

I feel no warmth hunting with plastic stocks and SS fluted barrels, these things are not my "thang".....

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson: it offers nothing more than Nostalgia over the 416 Rem, or the 416 Ruger..In fact the .416 will out penetrate the 404 with 400 gr. bullets everything being equal...:

Ditto Ray, the 404 is such a classic.

If loaded to equal velocities, the 404 and 416s are basically identical in performance. One could split hairs about the SD or whatever one might have over the other but in the field they will both do the same job, and recoil the same. I agree with Ray, the 416Rem. is the easiest and most practical. I have hunted with it and the Rigby and prefer it over the "nostalgic" 416 for all the reasons he gave. Unlike Ray, I am really not into nostalgia when it comes to my rifles, I like fluted barrels made of s/s that are bedded into a McMillan 'glass stock...and I also appreciate fine walnut and rust blue. The best "tool" for the job gets to go hunting...

Good question! First let me start off by saying I have zero experience with the 416 Rem, 416 Rigby or the 404 Jeffery. And absolutley no experience with Africa other than reading a lot of Ruark/Capstick/Taylor and even more posts on this forum. But since I am currentley having a 404 built, I thought would share my opinions and findings, limited and flawed as they may be, as to why I decided on the 404.
I wanted build a big bore bolt rifle in a classic "African" caliber. When I began researching the idea, I narrowed it down to five calibers I thought of as classic: 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery, 458 Win., and the 505 Gibbs.
Being a lefty, I could not find a LH action that could accomodate the 416 Rigby or the 505 Gibbs that was in my budget. I was somewhat discouraged as I really wanted the Rigby and considered putting the project on hold until I could afford a LH GMA magnum action. Not being one for patience, I was left with the 375, 404, and 458. I also briefly considered the 416 Rem., but any round that was created when I was in high school wasn't very classic in my mind (no offense to any 416 Rem. fans that might read this). The 375 just didn't excite me since I think it is a borderline big bore(again no offense to anyone), though my only real experience with a classic African caliber is with a 375 H&H. All I was left with was the 404 and the 458 Win. I guess the fact that ammo is readily available, dies/bullets/brass are cheap and I had read some unfavorable though moslty false, reports on the 458 made me shy away from it. That left the 404 Jeffery. And with it came hard to find and expensive factory ammo, expensive brass and dies, limited bullet selection, and a reputation for being tough to feed reliably. Yup...sounds like a classic to me. Nobody ever accused me of being a real smart.. Now I have jumped back into reloading after a 10 year absence, bought a bunch of expensive components, spent a lot more than I planned to on a rifle I don't even have yet, and whose performance I could easily duplicate with an off the shelf cailber, you ask me if it worth the time and investment.

Yup, I have to say it is. I sure have had a lot fun.

Oh yeah...I can't recall having found a negative word written or spoken about the performance of a 404 Jeffery.

Hugh
I have only ever shot a 416 remington and was much of a fan BUT I do have a 404jef built on a mauser 98 action and love it. Very mild recoil and i have never had one problem with feeding rounds in it.My biggest problem is wether to take the 404jef or the 500jef on my buff hunt this year

Hey Hugh!

As you know I have all three and have used the .416 Rigby and Remington often in my travels. My .404 is a new acquisition but looks promising with velocities around 2250 fps pushing a 400 grain A-Frame. I agree with those, like Ray and others who say there is not much difference in them especially from a buffalo's standpoint! A 400 grain premium bullet through the wheelhouse of a recalcitrant buff and it doesn't matter which rifle fired it he is not going far.

The Rigby does require a large magnum length action and ammo is EXPENSIVE.... but you can find it. The .404 only need a magnum action preferable one of the Model 70s in a .300 RUM (what mine started as) which uses the .404 case. If you use a Mauser (which you can) you will have some metalsmith dollars in her to get the action to feed properly... and ammo is expensive, if and when you can find it. We will see about delivery time and stocks of the Hornady ammo soon I hope.

Which leads us to the .416 Remington. It is the practical choice. However, in the end it is what flips your switch. I have a great .416 Remington built by Davenport but usually take my Rigby because I have shot it so much it is second nature... I just know where the gun will hit what i point it at. I, too, like classic wood and blued steel but my .404 will end up bucking that trend and I am sending her to Hill COuntry to be put in a synthetic stock and cerakoted... for shame! But build the one that you want most and have fun with the project. And good luck creating the gun you've always wanted!

quote:

feel no warmth hunting with plastic stocks and SS fluted barrels, these things are not my "thang"

OH YEA!!!!!!!

Folks,

Thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated.

Hugh

quote:

Originally posted by Hugh W:
It seems that the 404 has a fair following here on AR, and will soon have a "re-birth" with Hornady and Norma offering loaded ammo as well as others offering improved bullet selection. The 416s (Rigby and Rem) have enjoyed incredible success and will no doubt continue to. What does the 404 offer if you already own a 416? Softer recoil, easier to manage, slightly smaller package / weight; but not quite as much penetration? Help me with the benefits of this cartridge. Worth the time and investment?

As originally loaded the 404 was a pussy cat, so to speak. I suspect Hornady will load as same. Of course one can goose up the 404 to the 416 Rem level and beyond, and can goose up the Rigby even more. But then what do you call a goosed 404?

All else being equal, one can get more 416 Rem's in a magazine, and the slimmer case will be easier to get to feed.

I suspect you won't hear from many of the previous 404 owners that couldn't get theirs to feed. In the end, you probably couldn't tell the difference in any of them on game, regardless of what Ray claims.

.416 Rigby. According to no less than Harry Selby, whose experience ought to be sufficient for one and all.

Although if Harry were starting out today, the Remington version of the .416 would probably be his choice, for obvious reasons.

That or the .458 Lott, for equally obvious reasons. IMHO, of course.

Still, a man could do a hell of a lot worse than a .404 Jeffery.

I load my 404 Jeffery with 400-grain A-Frames at 2325 fps. Love it! Too bad it'll never go back to Africa, as I can't trust it to feed in gone-to-shit mode.

I'm leaving Sunday loaded for buffalo with my CZ 404. I'm using woodliegh 400 gr solids and softs at 2185. I figure the origional load was good then, it should still be good now.
I find that it has a slight, but definate advantage in recoil (less I mean) than the 416, either rigby or Rem. Still the main reason that I got it was Tradition. I'm a sucker for old school.

Will,
there ya go picking on me again..btw I am shooting a 416 Ruger these days, ain't that nostalgic!! and for your information it will shoot a 800 gr. bullet at 3200 FPS with my special liquid powder and 225 Federal primers! I will discount the gun to you, email me for details!

Taking the 416 rigby to Africa this summer, loaded with 400 grain solids and barnes Triple X cape shock bullets. Let you know after august how things went. drwes