It's all juju for us mere mortals

Warrior,
I don't consider the cup point a compromise. I consider it one tough soft point that penetrates as well as any solid as far as I can tell..If not then both are careening across the vuga as they both have more penetration than is ever needed IMO...

I will be going to Tanz nest Aug and I will be loaded with cup points for everything. I have had such good luck with them that I would doubt anyones claim of using them that says they are neigher fish nor fowl. You need to try them for yourself. I have shot Impala, Hartebeest, Zebra, Wildebeest and buffalo with them and no complaints at all. They kill like a real tough soft point.

But the bottom line is everybody has a favorite bullet, rifle, caliber and what works for you is what you should use, when it fails then you can switch to something else and kick your own butt, I've done that a lot of times...

OH yeah, and if bullet yaw is a problem then your way to close! I have managed to get away without worry about a 1x12 twist in my .375 for many years, lucky me...

The other thing is Yaw is only half al word where I come from. Yaw'll come on over.

Two very famous .375 H&H proponents, Harry Manners and Wally Johnson, began elephant hunting in partnership in Mozambique in 1937. Both were using off-the-shelf Winchesters and they only used Kynoch 300-grain solids. They were both expert shots and could place their bullets accurately from any angle for brain-shots on elephant, but both used shoulder shots when these were convenient, alleging that this was the largest and safest target.

When ivory hunting was stopped in Mozambique in the early 1950s in favour of safari hunting, Harry and Wally entered the safari field, both still only using their .375s. Both Harry and Wally went to their graves asserting that a .375 H&H Magnum with 300-grain solid bullets was all a professional hunter needed for the hunting of elephant. And they shot thousands !!!!

Warrior

Warrior for Elephant I don't think there is an issue that in a 375 you would use only solids.

However, for Buffalo with the better bullets we have I think the pendulum has shifted to a soft at least for the 1st shot & if you are using monometal bullets just fill your magazine with it.

The issues KR raises in his book are with the 375 H&H for Buffalo. So do we need to reduce the speed? Do we need to incr bullet weight? Do we need to avoid certain types of so called premium bullets?

The people here have given views from their personal experiences and I very much appreciate their participation in this post.

Regards,
JohnT

So who is prepared to line up 20 buff for me I will shoot 10 of them with a premium soft at 2400 fs and the other 10 with monometal expanding bullet at 2600fps ?

I know I know it's hard work but somebody will have to do it.

I have grown up with the idea slow and heavy works better. But technology and circumstances change all the time. The first time I saw BarnesX they looked good, then I saw the petals came off but the animals still died now the new Barnes are just perfect holding together and it's hard to beat that end result but I'm sure somebody will one day make even a better bullet we will have to change and accept these changes.

quote:

However, for Buffalo with the better bullets we have I think the pendulum has shifted to a soft at least for the 1st shot

JohnT,

Agreed, even die-hard Solid proponents have changed over the years with the advent of premium-grade softs(TBBC,Swift A-Frame, Rhino, NF,etc). Dr Mauritz Coetzee is one of these people that made the change along with most of his many PH friends, and there is certainly a good reason for that.

As to bullet mass, the 350 gr bullet provides more momentum to drive the bullet. As the expanding soft bullets meets with greater resistance vis-a-vis the non-expanding solid, we need the extra momentum. It boils down to Mo/Xsa. The essence of what Kevin Robinson is saying, that in the case of the 380 gr Rhino Solid Shank bullet is that it opens up to a bigger diameter than all the 300 gr bullets on the market and still hold together, and that creates the "magic" to drop buffalo quicker, as it punches a bigger hole.

As to velocity, typically the 380 gr bullet runs at 2,150 fto 2,180 fps. So that proves that we do not need 2,400+ fps. Hunters that use 286 gr Rhino bullets in the 9,3x62 on buffalo kill them quite effectively at velocities of 2,220 to 2,250 fps. But there is a difference according to Kevin, the bullet that makes the bigger hole drops them quicker. Incidentally, I spoke to Kevin about this matter, as he had tea with me at my house on one of his visits to SA when he was still living in Zimbabwe. With his experience on buffalo (more than 800), I am sold on his observation.

Take care
Warrior

I agree with you Warrior!

Maybe this video clip will give you an understanding of why Momentum is more important than energy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3QKRl43i4g&mode=related&search=

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
... but I'm sure somebody will one day make even a better bullet we will have to change and accept these changes.

How about a bullet that gauges trophy quality. You shoot over the herd and it finds the next SCI #1 and drops it cleanly so as not to damage the horns or cape.

...on second thought... that would be boring

I am a heavy bullet fan unless I am shooting a monolithic then I will back off to the next lightest weight example a 270 gr. monolithic HP compared to a 300 gr. Woodleigh for instance..

But like most things you can go to far in either direction, thats what makes fanatics me thinks, moderation is usually the key in all things..

That said, I found the 350 Woodleigh to be an excellent bullet in a soft point, particularly the PP which is tougher, but I didn't like the 380 gr. Rhino bullets in my gun, they just had to be set too deep into the case taking up powder space IMO..I also think when a bullet gets too long it then tends to tip upon contact or so it seemed to me, otherwise why not a 450 gr. 375 in a 378 or such...

I think the .350 is optimum, longer is not, but that's only my opinnion.

Hey Warrior,
If there is something I hate it is when you have this wannabe who pretends to know it all.

quote:

Two very famous .375 H&H proponents, Harry Manners and Wally Johnson, began elephant hunting in partnership in Mozambique in 1937. Both were using off-the-shelf Winchesters and they only used Kynoch 300-grain solids. They were both expert shots and could place their bullets accurately from any angle for brain-shots on elephant, but both used shoulder shots when these were convenient, alleging that this was the largest and safest target.

When ivory hunting was stopped in Mozambique in the early 1950s in favour of safari hunting, Harry and Wally entered the safari field, both still only using their .375s. Both Harry and Wally went to their graves asserting that a .375 H&H Magnum with 300-grain solid bullets was all a professional hunter needed for the hunting of elephant. And they shot thousands !!!!

Warrior

The least you can do when you copy and paste from someone elses work is to acknowledge the source . Did you get permission to copy the words above as they ask at the bottom of the page or is it ok with you to just pretend it is your own? (© African Hunter 1980-2005. No portion of this publication may be reproduced without permission.)

quote:

The essence of what Kevin Robinson is saying........ I spoke to Kevin about this matter, as he had tea with me at my house

Kevin Robinson had tea at your house and you discussed Kevin Robertsons views with him. You expect anyone to take you seriously? In motor racing we would say you are all chrome and no go.

Sorry guys I have seen enough of this okes stirring to take anything he says at face value. Rant mode off.

Ray,

Sure we need to balance things out between the length of the magazine and how deep one is prepared to seat a bullet and still being able to chamber a bullet in an optimal way so that it fits the free-bore portion like a glove. This is the balancing act we have to perform and to pick a bullet that can fit in with the parameters of the gun that we cannot change.

What I mean is this:

Would we prefer to shoot short bullets in a long-throted chamber?
Would we prefer to shoot long bullets in a short-throated chamber?

We also know that some magazines are the limiting factor and could have been longer to allow for bullets to be seated out more and so get closer to the lands for one, and for another, to free up more space for powder.

That is why I like the design parameters of the 9,3x62 mm so much. It is long-throated and my 286 gr Rhino bullets can be seated out so I can achieve an AOL of 86 mm.

AOL = 86 mm
Less Case length = 62 mm
Difference = 24 mm
Length of bullet = 34 mm
Thus seating depth = 10 mm

The 300 gr Swift A-Frame bullet is 1 mm shorter and so seating dept is thus 9 mm's. This bullet is not too long for its weight and fit the dimentions very well, and on top it is a star performer in the 9,3 Mauser. On the other hand it should be clear why we should not pick short stubby looking bullets to fit into the above scenario. For example the 232 gr Norma Vulkan is only 26.2 mm long and if you seat this bullet say approx 1 diameter length deep at 9.2 mm's, then the AOL is just 79 mm's, and you have a situation that you are another 7 mm's farther from the lands - a sectioned view of this would resemble an odd-looking fit between bullet and free-bore.

The 250 gr Northfork has an ideal length at 32.8 mm, alomst the same as the the 33 mm long 300 gr Swift A-Frame bullet. So, it is all about balance for me.

Warrior

Ratmotor,

You are welcome to phone Kevin and asked him if I fetched him at the airport and if he visisted me at my home. Also ask him if he visited Kobus at Rhino Bullets at the same time as both Kevin, Kobus v/d Westhuizen and Mauritz Coetzee discussed the very same subject with him. Also phone Kobus and Mauritz and satisfy yourself that Kevin is of the opinion that the 380 gr Rhino Soft is the best Buffalo bullet. He also wrote an article to this effect in an American magazine and Mauritz showed me a copy thereof.

Other than that, I am not interested to have any discourse with you.

Warrior

Who the hell cares if you played taxi driver to Kevin and where am I going to find his number in Zimbabwe? I am talking about you being a wannabe and pretending to have all this knowledge meanwhile you are just plagiarising it from other people without their permission and you cant even get their names right. All chrome and no go.

quote:

Originally posted by Rat Motor:
Hey Warrior,
If there is something I hate it is when you have this wannabe who pretends to know it all.

quote:

Two very famous .375 H&H proponents, Harry Manners and Wally Johnson, began elephant hunting in partnership in Mozambique in 1937. Both were using off-the-shelf Winchesters and they only used Kynoch 300-grain solids. They were both expert shots and could place their bullets accurately from any angle for brain-shots on elephant, but both used shoulder shots when these were convenient, alleging that this was the largest and safest target.

When ivory hunting was stopped in Mozambique in the early 1950s in favour of safari hunting, Harry and Wally entered the safari field, both still only using their .375s. Both Harry and Wally went to their graves asserting that a .375 H&H Magnum with 300-grain solid bullets was all a professional hunter needed for the hunting of elephant. And they shot thousands !!!!

Warrior

The least you can do when you copy and paste from someone elses work is to acknowledge the source . Did you get permission to copy the words above as they ask at the bottom of the page or is it ok with you to just pretend it is your own? (© African Hunter 1980-2005. No portion of this publication may be reproduced without permission.)

quote:

The essence of what Kevin Robinson is saying........ I spoke to Kevin about this matter, as he had tea with me at my house

Kevin Robinson had tea at your house and you discussed Kevin Robertsons views with him. You expect anyone to take you seriously? In motor racing we would say you are all chrome and no go.

Sorry guys I have seen enough of this okes stirring to take anything he says at face value. Rant mode off.

harsh

Rat Motor,

For all your 83 post you have made was there one that you did not attack anyone and just gave a plain opinion ?

Everyone one has their like and dislikes if someone makes a spelling mistake then I suppose it's the end of the world for you.
We all know what Warrior was trying to say with his post and the responces between him and Ray makes it worthwhile to read and learn. Why make a mess of an intersting topic just because you don't agree with someone ?

I will use Norma African PH in .404 Jeffery loaded with Woodleighs new 450 grainer on Buffalo in Save (Outfitter is Shangaan Hunters)Zimbabwe 10 - 19th November.

Hope that they will work fine. I get an average of 2140fps from the 24" Lothar Walter barrel at a temperature of 15 degrees Celsius.

I will tell you if they where any good.

Is the Norma PH stuff available here in the US? jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Is the Norma PH stuff available here in the US? jorge

Jorge,

Here is the only source I was able to find:

Impact Guns

Warror,
Point well taken.

Husky,
That ought to be a killing combo.. I love the 404 and it the 450 gr. Woodleighs do for the .404 what they have done for the 416 then your on the right track...

Be sure and let us know your results, did Woodleigh make a 450 gr. solid...If not, then I suspect the .400 gr. solid will shoot to the same POI as the 450, it does in my 416 and the 300 gr. solid in the .375 shot to same POI as the 350 gr. Thats handy..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Husky,
That ought to be a killing combo.. I love the 404 and it the 450 gr. Woodleighs do for the .404 what they have done for the 416 then your on the right track...

Be sure and let us know your results, did Woodleigh make a 450 gr. solid...If not, then I suspect the .400 gr. solid will shoot to the same POI as the 450, it does in my 416 and the 300 gr. solid in the .375 shot to same POI as the 350 gr. Thats handy..

Yes, Woodleigh makes a 450 grain FMJ and both loads shoots to the same POI. I have zeroed the rifle at 100 meters.

The hunt is a long story, actually i should have hunted with Kevin Robertson in Mocambique beginning of Oct, but we cancelled that hunt because of different reasons, so now i am going for Zimbabwe instead

Perhaps the reason people might be having trouble with the 300 grain Woodleighs roundnose bullets is excessive velocity.

If you go to the Woodleigh web site they give you a suggested impact velocity for each of their bullets. The suggested impact velocity for the 300 grain roundnose bullets is between 1900 and 2400 fps. However, the suggested impact velocity for the 300 grain protected point bullet is 1900 to 2600 fps. I seriously doubt that there is anything wrong with a 300 grain bullet in your .375. However, since most buffalo are shot at realtively short range, I might suggest that if you are using a 300 grain Woodleigh roundnose, you might consider backing off a bit on the velocity to keep it within the design parameters. Otherwise, it might better to stick with the protected point since they can be driven at a bit higher muzzle velocity. In my .375, I am getting about 2500 fps so I have decided to stick with the Woodleigh protected points.

Dave

Kevin lives in my local town and when I bumped into him this week and told him about this post, he insisted that momentum plays a huge role in the equation.
The rest of the detail I forget, unfortunately, save to say that more and more professionals are switching to the 350 to 380 gr bullets. Perhaps the 340 will also be a winner.

Karoo,

The more you bump into Kevin, the more you will like him. He is a great guy and went through a terrible ordeal in Zimbabwe and then to resettle his family in South Africa. Kevin was and probably still is writing a monthly column for 'The Accurate Rifle' magazine. Despite some severe critisims on AR that have been leveled against Kevin, I would submit that all his critics together probably did not encounter 10% of all the buffalo shooting that he was involved in.

I am sure the 340 gr Rhino bullet is going to be a great combo in the 375 H&H.
Most of us know by now that Kenetic Energy is the most misleading statistic in terminal ballistics.

Warrior

quote:

Most of us know by now that Kenetic Energy is the most misleading statistic in terminal ballistics.

KE is a useful number to take note of. Most misleading is probably the percentage weight retention. KE is an indication of how much work the bullet can potentially do. 100% weight retention can be good or bad.

/

quote:

why is the target killed and not the shooter????

It must have something to do with the momentum that is applied to the cross sectional area of the bullet that enables it to penetrate the target. On the other hand the momentum value of the rifle that is applied to the shooter via the larger area of the recoil pad and the hands gripping the rifle prevents it from penetrating the shooter. Note that when just a small part of the momentum of the rifle is applied to the eyebrow of the shooter it does penetrate and he tends to bleed profusely.

/

Killing has to do with biology - where you do the severing and to what extent.

Warrior

Alf
Forget about buffalo and elephant. By far the greater majority of shots are on plains game and animals much smaller than buffalo and elephant. As I see it you have to score a direct hit on the heart or brain or spine of an animal if you use a slow and heavy bullet. A hit on the lungs or just behind but close to the chest cavity will result in a running animal.

With a tough but lighter bullet the result of a heart or brain or spine hit is the same as that of a heavy slow bullet. But a hit on the lungs or just behind the lungs will also be successful and the faster the bullet is moving when it hits the better the result.

I do not have as much hunting experience as some of you guys but I have seen and experienced that fast tough bullets that produce two holes make a bigger mess inside the animal and puts them down faster than waht slow and heavy bullets do that sometimes do not expand and sometimes do not exit. If it is a coincidence that the fast bullet has more KE than the slow bullet it is a happy coincidence and I will not complain about that. Everyone needs a margin for error from time to time and more KE supplies that margin.

Hey Warrior

quote:

Killing has to do with biology - where you do the severing and to what extent.

"where" has to do with momentum and "to what extent" has to do with KE.

quote:

the Momentum theorem does not correlate to the biological effect of the projectile in tissue !

Alf, we are on the same page.

MO = .284"/130 gr @ 3,000 fps = 55.7 Lbs/Ft-sec
MO = 1,950 gr round ball @ 200 fps = 55.7 Lbs/Ft-sec
MO = 195,000 gr round ball @ 2 fps = 55.7 Lbs/Ft-sec

Warrior

quote:

It must have something to do with the momentum that is applied to the cross sectional area of the bullet that enables it to penetrate the target. On the other hand the momentum value of the rifle that is applied to the shooter via the larger area of the recoil pad and the hands gripping the rifle prevents it from penetrating the shooter. Note that when just a small part of the momentum of the rifle is applied to the eyebrow of the shooter it does penetrate and he tends to bleed profusely.

This explains why your balls wont work. I thought it would be obvious.

WHAT TO EXPECT FROM THE 380 GR RHINO BULLET ...
from Doctari ... sent to me on Saturday, July 16, 2005 10:14 AM


"During the 2002 hunting season my safari clients used hand-loaded 380 grain Rhino bullets in .375 H&H caliber to take 6 Zambezi Valley buffalo and a number of the other game animal species which also occur there. These included zebra, waterbuck, bushbuck, impala, baboon, hyena and even a large Tom leopard.

My initial impression of the 380 grain Rhino’s performance on all the species shot, was one of amazement, particularly in the size of the permanent wound channels they created. I was also impressed with their penetration. From side-on, these bullets shot right through the chest cavities of all the small game species mentioned above, even the zebra and waterbuck. Only those from buffalo were recovered, the rest all exited. When used on buffalo, from side-on, the Rhino’s were invariably found under the skin on the opposite shoulder, and my visual impression was that these buffalo’s reaction to the shot was similar to that which occurs when one of the .40 calibers is used."

Warrior

After experimenting at my own range and on big game with Woodleigh's 300grn 375 bullets at 2480fps, 350grn 375 bullets at 2360fps, 286grn 9.3mm bullets at 2340fps and the 320grn 9.3mms at 2230fps, I am happy to stick with the slower velocities with their deeper penetration and controlled bullet performance.

Saeed;

From Kevin Robertson's book; "For buffalo, correct and precise first-shot placement is absolutely everything - peroid." and ". . . a smaller diameter bullet in the right place will be far more effective than a larger, poorly placed one, regardless of their respetive ME values." To assist the hunter with small big bore experience, Kevin Robertson and friends deveoped the 400 Tembo which in a 10 pound rifle he believes has sufficient performance with low recoil to enable good shot placement.

For All;

The chapter on "Selecting the Right Caliber and Cartridge" is difficult to do justice to in a short note. My reading of it leaves me with the impression that Kevin Robertson knows the limitations within which his theories on bullet density, Me and other elements apply. In fact there are 8 characteristics which he lists for an effective and legal cartridge/caliber/bullet weight combination including caliber, weight, sectional density, muzzle velocity, muzzle energy, momentum, KO value and percieved recoil with numerical values for each.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
After experimenting at my own range and on big game with Woodleigh's 300grn 375 bullets at 2480fps, 350grn 375 bullets at 2360fps, 286grn 9.3mm bullets at 2340fps and the 320grn 9.3mms at 2230fps, I am happy to stick with the slower velocities with their deeper penetration and controlled bullet performance.

Ozhunter,

Could I just ask for your clarification please. The velocities that you have quoted above for the respective bullet weights and calibres - do you consider them the " slower " velocities that you prefer or at the upper end of acceptable velocities for the Woodleighs? Also, as you have used both the 300gr & 350gr in the 375 H&H - which would you prefer for buffalo?

Regards,
JohnT

The velocities stated provided the best accuracy for the rifles used and were what I felt a good, not too fast velocity and which did give great penetration without failure.
I use the 9.3 320grn and 375 350grn Woodleigh solids and 300grn 9.3 and 375 Swift A Frames as the softs for Buffalo.
For Buffalo with Woodleigh softs I would defiantly use the heaviest in the "Protected Point" as I have seen the lighter "Round Nose" softs fail even at mild speed on big game (Would have been bad with high velocity) .

Thanks Ozhunter.

Regards,
JohnT

Sometimes reading this kind of topics about momentums...twists...200 fps more or less..cup points..solids..round noses..etc,etc I end really confused..

I am a simple mortal, so I belive that ANY good quality bullet from today, put it through the shoulders of any living bovine on earth, will kill it stone dead after a few minutes...so what I am missing ???

Any brand of bullet will have a failure now and then, that is just life. I have participate with my friends in a culling of around 80 waterbuffs, all of them shot with Noslers partitions and Hornady round noses, none of the buffs complain about balistics. The only one that nearly killed us was shot with a solid..



L