Sumbuddy who know?

Gossip is that Charlie Kokesh, CEO of Dakota wants to offer a .338 Lapua necked up to .423 caliber.

I new if I concentrated hard enough, I could plant a psychic seed.

My .45 Lapua and .375 Lapua need a .404 Lapua for company, and that might be reason enough to go for a Dakota Rifle.

Idea is supposed to be to duplicate the ballistics of the .404 Dakota Shortie, at lower pressures.

Kokesh is delusional about higher velocities causing less penetration.

This does not happen with a good solid like the North Fork FP solid. The faster that bullet goes, the deeper it penetrates, and always in a straight and true line.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RIP:
My .45 Lapua and .375 Lapua need a .404 Lapua for company, and that might be reason enough to go for a Dakota Rifle.

---

Interesting, but why not use the 416 Rigby full length case, should pretty similar to a 404 Schüler Magnum

"375 Lapua" was born years ago under the name 375 Tornado

Cheers
/JOHAN

Johan,
Interesting that you say the "375 Tornado" was born "years ago."

How long have you known about it, or what is the earliest reference to it that you know of?

I hatched the .375/.338 Lapua idea myself back in 2001 and have inquired here at ar.com about it back in 2003. Ed Reynolds (hockeypuck) of AEM Enterprises, Inc./AccuLoad, was kind enough to send a reference to me:

[QUOTE]

Ref.
A New German Sporting Caliber, Phillipe Regenstreif, The Cartridge Researcher, ECRA, Leige, Belgium, 1-1-2003, No.452 p.11 ...

Velocity -- 2808 fps 300 gr bullet
5,251 ft.lbs. (muzzle)
Designer: Waffen JUNG G.m.b.H.

... 9.5 x 69mm Tornado ...

... it comes in a new rifle, the Tornado Magnum Classic, which sports a Mauser 98 action.

[END QUOTE]

I have also seen an obscure reference to a "9.5x70mm" called the "9.5 Tornado."

Actually the .338 Lapua Magnum is only 70 mm long, so it is the 8.6x70mm.

Neck it up to .375 caliber and it becomes the 9.5x69mm Tornado. Neck that up further to .458 caliber, and it becomes the 11.6x68mm or 45 Lapua.

So the .423 Dakota would be about like a 10.75x68.5mm or .423/.338 Lapua.

Of course an extra mm or two could make them all 70 mm cartridges if one had purpose-formed brass, reamer and dies for a series like this. Simply necking up the .338 Lapua brass shortens it about a mm for the step to .375 then again to .458.

Why use the shortened .416 Rigby, AKA .338 Lapua?

This would give the option of using the great .338 Lapua brass more easily. Stronger stuff.

The 20 degree Lapua shoulder versus the 45 degree Rigby shoulder would have some manufacturing and reloading benefits.

I wonder if Charlie Kokesh will give the .423 Lapua/Dakota a shoulder angle different from the .338 Lapua, or make the headspace different? I hope not.

I do hope he will give it about 0.4" of parallel throat freebore, so I can long seat the .423 caliber bullets way out there to fill a Rigby sized box, and waste none of the case powder capacity. Even the Rigby has to waste space on bullet shanks buried in the case.

Now, I hope sumbuddy will post in and at least act like they have heard of this .423 Dakota rumor, to give some cover to my source, else Charlie Kokesh will know who leaked the info.

Hope Charlie opens up his mind to better penetration at higher velocity with a good Flat Point solid.

.423 Lapua velocities?

Never again to worry about pressures when pushing .423 caliber bullets.

North Forks:

380 grainers (SP,FP,CP) at 2600 fps, no sweat, but 2500 fps at sub-50K-PSI.

340 grainers (SP) at 2800 fps, no sweat, but 2700 fps at sub-50K-PSI.

Nobody has heard of the .423 Lapua/Dakota factory offering?

Well, you heard it first here folks!

And it is also an established fact that a good flat nosed solid, North Fork or GS Custom, is better with speed.

There is nothing magic about 2400 fps.

The faster the better.

Shooter inability to place the shot is the only problem with a well made bullet.

Ron,

So is there going to be two 404 Dakotas?

Mike

Mike,
My guess is that there will be a new ".423 Dakota" and the shortened .404 Jeffery based .404 Dakota will remain as the ".404 Dakota" to become the next red-headed stepchild of Dakota, like the .416 Dakota.

Thanks for asking, but I am just guessing on that. The little birdy didn't tell me all the details.

A yellow bird
With a yellow bill
Landed on my window sill.

I lured him in
With crumbs of bread ...

How do you think Dakota is going to go as mate of mine is just on the verge of buying one. He would buy a blank from Dressels and send to Dakota. Calibre will be 375 H&H.

Mike

Mike,
Dakota is alive and well.
I think a yuppie consortium has control. Nesika Bay has moved into the plant at Sturgis, SD. They are bringing their stainless technology and experience to Dakota. Nesika Bay is supposed to be the greatest benchrest/target action, eh?

Their brass will now be sourced from the guy across the street from them in Sturgis, SD, and that is Jamison. I have been up to visit a half dozen times in the last year, snooping through the various production areas of Dakota and Jamison.

It all looks very healthy and growing. Jamison makes the .408 Chey-Tac super-duper brass, and he is the one making the current .404 Dakota brass. I am sure he could handle a .423 Dakota or .423/.338 Lapua Magnum. He bought the old BeLL/MAST machinery and has the capability to keep the old stuff going if the times and needs warrant.

I am waiting for Dakota to offer something I really want. The proposed .423 Dakota might be it.

I saw plenty of pretty wood in the racks at Dakota, but it interests me not.

Contact info for Jamison Brass:

Jamison International V LLC
3551 Mayer Avenue
Sturgis, South Dakota 57785
Phone: (605)347-5090
Fax: (605)347-4704
email: jamisonintl@rushmore.com

And for Dakota, I think this is the latest:

Dakota Arms, Inc.
1310 Industry Road
Sturgis, SD 57785
Tel: 605/347-4686
Fax: 605/347-4459
email: info@dakotaarms.com
www.dakotaarms.com

So when will Dakota offer the Model 76 action in stainless, with Nesika Bay help?

Would this upset the status quo?

Would this be like finding a better alternative to petroleum as an energy source?

We can only hope for progress in our lifetimes.

Well, excuse me if I have been showing my ignorance.

Is stainless steel really that bad/weak?

In light of the Sako/Tikka blowups I have started hearing things:

Krieger will make a chrome-moly barrel in #2 contour for the .338, but will not make a stainless barrel of less than #5 contour for the same caliber.

Has anyone gotten to an explanation of the weak stainless barrels produced by Beretta/Sako?

Was it alloy composition, improper heat treating, faulty other manufacturing process, fluting too deep on too light a contour ...???

Dakota is going ahead with the Model 97 in stainless, and that is said to be a whippy wet-noodle action not as strong as the 76.

Could the Sako/Tikka blowups have happened to chrome-moly barrels with similar defects as the blownup stainless barrels? Probably so, but the defect is as yet unspecified.

Dan Lilja will not flute a chrome-moly barrel but happily flutes stainless of adequate contour???

Shilen won't flute any barrel, says it is bad???

The little bird thkat whispered about the new .423" on the .338 Lapua case also said that the cartridge would be introduced at SHOT Show next week in Lost Wages.

I figured I would pester the Dakota contingent at SCI for the details (the two shows overlap).

jim

quote:

---

Originally posted by HunterJim:
The little bird thkat whispered about the new .423" on the .338 Lapua case also said that the cartridge would be introduced at SHOT Show next week in Lost Wages.

I figured I would pester the Dakota contingent at SCI for the details (the two shows overlap).

jim

---

Thanks, Jim. My source is safe. Every body already knew about it, eh? Please see if you can find out if it will be a straight-forward neck-up of the .338 Lapua, or will there be any Dakota changes to the shoulder angle and headspace. Ideal if 20 degree shoulder and same headspace guage.

Why re-invent the wheel?

There is already a 404 Jeffery and a .404 Dakota. The .423 Mishmash will not offer any concrete advantages over these cartridges.

A reasonable question for the non-cognoscenti.

Maybe the .404 Dakota-Shortie has pressures that are too high for somebody's liking?

Definitely a .423/.338 Lapua will have case capacity greater than the .404 Jeffery and will give lower pressures or faster velocities than either existing .404.

Either the .404 Jeffery or the .416 Rigby/.338 Lapua gets the same 4-down box capacity, the way Dakota builds them.

With a Rigby-sized box, and some freebore, the .423 bullets could be seated out to give even more useable case capacity in a .423/.338 Lapua, and much higher velocities or lower pressures than the .404 Jeffery.

And, if the brass is made like the .338 Lapua Magnum case heads are made, operating at 60,000 PSI even, would be nary a sweat.

I will have to see if I can neck up a .338 Lapua to .423 and measure the case capacity to compare to the .404 Jeffery (Norma) and the .416 Remington (Remington) and even the .404 Dakota-Shortie, while I am at it.

And besides, 500groans, the .423/.338 Lapua is simply a beautiful thing to behold, just as is Saeed's .375/.404. I base this on playing with .45 Lapua (live ammo) and .375 Lapua (dummies).

500,

Perhaps it might be the start of a line of cartridges for Dakota where top quality brass is not an issue.

Necked straight up or straight down it would make a nice line from 30 calibre through to 423. I suppose for factory ammo 45 would be too big as the shoulder would be a bit small.

Mike

In my opinion two mistakes were made by Dakota.

They followed the Wby path of their own calibres but based on questionable brass, so maybe the 338 Lapua could be a key to that door.

They should have had a rifle that was around Wby Mark V Deluxe prices and then do what Wby do and allow you to go through the roof if you so desire by either off the shelf type standard guns like the Safari, Crown Custom etc or the build a custom gun if you want empty your wallet in a big way.

Mike

Ditto Mike, except that I would have to say that .458 is no problem, but would be a factory max on the .338 Lapua neck-up. However, they have the .450 Dakota which is about 0.2" longer than the .45 Lapua.

All that advertising and image maintenance sure adds to the overhead at Dakota.

Dakota has tried to "cheap-down" their rifles with the model 97, but with too many limitations compared to their model 76 in 4 different action lengths.

RIP,

Sounds like you have been drinking. I am willing to talk when you dry out.

RIP,

Dakota has just announced the stainless steel version of the M97 rifle too.

jim

RIP,

I dont see the need for a 423 x 416 Rigby myself but a shortened 416 case might be a good one to wildcat. Thicker rim than the Jeffery.

Who told you at Dakota that there was a "magic" 2,400 fps limit for penetration of FMJ's?

If that is what the cult believes it would explain why they never acknowledged receipt of my article, though they did check it out on-line in the Nickudu files.

By the way, I recovered a 458 caliber North Fork CP the other day. Almost 2,600 fps. Lost a small segment of the expanded mushroom but nothing to worry about. Was shooting at just 20 yards. Most consistant and logical wound profile I have seen. Tracked straight with my 1-12 twist. (4 water buckets plus a dent on 5th).

Mike really has it covered now with the SP, CP and FN.

Now all of us have to buy some bullets to keep him in business. This guy is a national treasure.

Andy

quote:

---

Originally posted by 500grains:
RIP,

Sounds like you have been drinking. I am willing to talk when you dry out.

---

500groans,
Weak, very weak. Getting too late for you? Actually I am stone cold sober and have been ever since I saw what the whiteman's fire water has done to our Native Americans ... bad stuff, no good. I don't have enough brain cells to spare for playing with fire water.

Well,
I will try to post some pics then sign off. However it is imagestation and some have had trouble with it here.

...It didn't work so I guess I will have to try another photo service.

quote:

---

Originally posted by HunterJim:
RIP,

Dakota has just announced the stainless steel version of the M97 rifle too.

jim

---

Yes,
That was expected. Thanks for confirming it.

Hey Andy,
You and I see eye-to-eye on most things. Nobody is perfect.
That is exactly the way I feel about Mike Brady and North Fork too. I will continue to stockpile his bullets. May he live long and prosper. And he delivers in three days if he has gottem ready.

The source of my gossip must remain a secret, but as Jim has shown, many others have heard it, so it must not be gossip.

2400 fps is indeed no magic barrier. That was a 450gr/.458 CP wasn't it? The FP of same weight,caliber, and velocity would probably be a 10 bucket bullet, or close to it.


I will get some more water bucket shooting done and report to you. Thanks for your report.

Ron,

I don't think for factory ammo the shoulder of the Rigby or Lapua is big enough for 45, hence tey are Improved 416 Rigby.

Although the shoulder would be bigger on the Lapua than the Rigby being a bit further back.

But I think they should have had a cheaper D76 than the D97 with the detachable recoil lug. I thin HS Precision would better although it only comes in stainless. I know the D97 has the CRF but in the real gun buying world I don't think that counts for much.

I would like to see a company like Dakota be a a sort of alternative to Wby and a line of cartridges on that 338 Lapua would be a good start.

But the D97 is like the Wby Vanguard, a different rifle to the real thing but with a big price.

A 270/338 Lapua would be a nice looking thing.

Mike

Ron,

As my freind Bill Steigers said, "All gun nuts are crazy except you and me, and sometimes I wonder about you!"

Yes it was the .458 CP, weight 450 grains. About .027 longer than the new FN but otherwise identical.

I shot the buckets sitting them upright as I have in the past. For the FN I will lay them down as you did and elevate rear with a thin peice of lathe to level them. From your .404 data I figured ten buckets also.

They expand a bit more than I expected, but I was shooting them almost 2,600 fps. They had one full bucket more penetration than a 450 gr Barnes X (thats alot) and tracked perfectly straight even through the curved buckets. Never veered off center hit.

If I knew how to post a picture here I would.

As to Dakota brass, I am on my 7th reload of 450 Dakota and have not lost a single case. I am not afraid to lean on the powder scale either. Hope they can make it this good again.

Andy

Mike,
As for factory tolerances I don't know for sure, but the .45 Lapua shoulder is way better than the .460 G&A shoulder. I really think it would work as a factory cartridge, but if you want to say no, O.K., we can agree to disagree there.

The .423 Lapua is no question an easy factory loadable round.

Here are some water capacities, hasty small sample, to one grain. Brass really does vary a lot from lot to lot, and whether new, or fired and resized (these are new, unfired). Also these are homemade dies for my Lapua wildcats, no custom dies yet (so it would be nice if Dakota would go to the trouble of making .423 Lapua dies and rifles for them):

.416 Remington (RP brass): 104 grains
.404 Dakota (Dakota/Jamison brass): 105 grains
.404 Jeffery (Norma brass): 114 grains

.375 Lapua (Lapua brass): 119 grains
.423 Lapua (Lapua brass): 120 grains
.458 Lapua (Lapua brass): 121 grains

As the Lapua case is necked up, it shortens so the case capacity gain is reduced. If the factory ammo could be made to the full 70mm or 2.720" length the capacities for the wildcat Lapuas would be increased, and the necks lengthened, though they are all greater than or equal to "caliber-length" necks even in the shortened form.

Necking the .338 Lapua Magnum up to .423 caliber gives a case length of 2.682". I did this with a .30 to .375 expander first step then started a .375 to .45 expander into the neck part-way, then finished by using a .416 Rigby die to seat a .423 bullet nose first into the case neck to get a .423 neck ID, then pulled the bullet.

I have made makeshift dies for .45 Lapua and .375 Lapua using modified .338 Lapua and Weatherby .460 and .378 dies.

I do not have anything I can rig for .423 Lapua seating with a crimp however ... until Dakota comes out with the .423 Dakota???

If the .423 Dakota could be given some parallel throat/freebore (unlike the zero-freebore .404 Jeffery), and the Rigby length box, the bullets could be loaded out to COL 3.75" and an appropriate cannelure placed on the bullet.

This would give the .423 Lapua a much greater case capacity and lower pressures than the .404 Jeffery. Or, one could load it to a COL of about 0.188" shorter than the .404 Jeffery and still have a greater-case-capacity/lower-pressure/higher-velocity advantage over the .404 jeffery.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy:
Ron,

As my freind Bill Steigers said, "All gun nuts are crazy except you and me, and sometimes I wonder about you!"

---

And I sometimes wonder about 500groans.

10 buckets is 50 bucks.
I am collecting wooden beams and saw horses and going to try the plastic waste basket train approach for my next round, which will be well leveled. Maybe the water will just blow out of the tops of the open baskets and I can patch the sides with duct tape between shots?

I am also picture posting impaired right now.

I have 140 pieces of the .450 Dakota brass, glad to hear it is holding up.

Nutty as I am, I need to have a "job" like retired and independently wealthy ... oh well ... cesli wakan, tomorrow is Monday ... then, cesli wakan it's only Wednesday ... as George Carlin would say if he were Lakota.

HSIOW: Holy shit it's only Wednesday!
TGIF

I lured him in with crumbs of bread
then grabbed the sill and crushed his friggin head...so now my poor little bird is dead.

Just thought I'd finish it for you RIP.....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I lured him in with crumbs of bread
then grabbed the sill and crushed his friggin head...so now my poor little bird is dead.

Just thought I'd finish it for you RIP.....

---

Thanks Ray! Now I can stretch that cadence song out and do some really fancy steps during morning PT runs.

We used to just end it by increasing volume to a shout as we sang the last line as simply:

... I lured him in,
With crumbs of bread,
AND THEN I SMASHED HIS FXXXING HEAD!

Next song, with grammatical errors that add to the color and spirit:

Two old ladies laying in bed,
One rolled over to the other and said:
I wanna be an Airbourne Ranger,
I wanna live a life of danger,
Etc., etc. ...

Please don't finish that one for me right now, Ray. We ought to get together and jog and sing sometime. A hilly golf course would be a good place, before sun up, so as not to frighten the golfers.

Really now, I'll feel like the little bird at the end of the song if Dakota renigs on the .423 Dakota.

Guess then I will just have to get Dave Manson to make a reamer for .423/.338 Lapua Magnum (with 0.4" of parallel throat freebore) and Redding to make the custom dies.

To my twisted mind, the .423/.338 Lapua would be light years ahead of the .404 Jeffery, even a 27" Lothar Walther barreled one.

Just one of those gunnut things which many would never understand, but many do.

Maybe Charlie Kokesh, CEO of Dakota gets it.