Something I learnt very early in my career as PH was that it was not ethical to “steal†clients from outfitters who hire you to hunt for them. So therefore; as a matter of principle and ethics I never coerced (or tried to coerce) clients of the Outfitters I was freelancing for in the past into booking hunts with me directly…

It is true of course; that friendships are formed between client and PH during the 10, 14 or however many days they hunt together and the temptation is there for a PH (especially those who outfit hunts themselves) to invite clients to book a hunt directly with them next time… Sometimes clients even contacts PH’s directly and ask them if he would book them directly – something that happened to me in the past… In this regard I should say that I was very tempted to go ahead and book the client there and then but as matter of principle, I first contacted the Outfitter I had hunted for with the client… Invariably the response I got was: “Heck if he wants to book with you then go for it – but then at least charge him the same rates I do…†Thanks to this attitude I am still friends with all the Outfitters I hunted for in the past and am even welcome to hunt on their concessions…

What happens when the PH you hired offers a hunt for free or at “cost†to a client you originally booked? Needless to say: no-one can blame the client for taking the PH up on such an offer… but is it fair and ethical from the PH??? Yeah I know… life isn’t fair…

Consider this: An Outfitter invests money / time into recruiting a client and entrusts and pays a PH to look after his client and hunt with him... The client and PH then become friends and during / after the hunt the PH invites the client to join him on a family hunt – only paying cost… or at a very cheap rate… “just to cover expenses†Very generous of the PH indeed and on the face of things not unethical at all… or is it??? After all; the client is now hunting as a friend and not a client… But what incentive would there be for a client to book a hunt with the Outfitter again if he can now hunt for free with his new “friend†in Africa?

I was wondering how many clients out there were offered “special deals†by the PH they hunted with? Similarly I was wondering how many Outfitters out there had hired PH’s that did the same…?

Question:
Have you as client been offered special deals by the PH's you hunted with under the above circumstances?

Choices:
Yes
No

Question:
If you were offered special deals - did you take the PH up on these offers?

Choices:
Yes
No

Question:
Do you think it is ethical for a PH to offer clients hunts under these circumstances?

Choices:
Yes
No

 

And furthermore I would never hunt with someone who tried that.

I would also never hire a person who tried to undercut his employers prices behind the employers back.

quote:

I would also never hire a person who tried to undercut his employers prices behind the employers back.

This is a common practise in the PHs business... not only in Africa.


Seloushunter

Seems there are three scenarios when PH offers hunt to client:
*PH is using outfitter's marketing to attract clients for himself
*PH is making a "friendly" offer of free/at cost hunting with idea that client will contact him for full price hunt later on or market PH to his friends
*PH is making a genuinely friendly offer of free/at cost hunt because he enjoys hunting with the client

The post begins to blur these scenarios towards the end. I believe the issue only concerns the first two scenarios. Without genuine goodwill (scenario 3) we would not get far in this world.
The test is whether or not the PH receives material gain from the client; this may be in the form of outfitter's margin over PH's salary or in the form of marketing by the outfitter which has been hijacked by the PH.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
...I was very tempted to go ahead and book the client there and then but as matter of principle, I first contacted the Outfitter I had hunted for with the client…

I believe you are one of the few PH's who would do that and admire you for it.

quote:

but is it fair and ethical from the PH??? Yeah I know… life isn’t fair…

Ethical - NO, fair - NO. Unfortunately everyone has their own interpretation of what is ethical and fair. As a given horse should not be looked in the mouth I don't think the client should be blamed though.

PM on its way.

On one African hunt in 1994 I had my Outfitter offer me a 15% discount if I didn't book through his booking agent, During my hunt the Outfitters own PH told me he was going on his own the next year and offered to take me hunting at a deeper discount if I were to come back and I booked direct through him.

I sometimes do some freelance work, mostly for cats, but I'd never consider trying to steal a client away from someone....... When I'm freelancing, I don't even mention my own company. I've had guys try to do it to me though, and have to say it's bloody annoying.

We rarely use agents etc, so don't really get into the scenario of clients who had previously booked through an agent asking to book direct, but if one did, I'd simply explain he was welcome to book direct if he wished, but that we would let the agent know out of courtesy and would continue to pay the agent his commission regardless of who he made the booking with. either way, the price wouldn't change as we don't do discounts. (Excepting the odd cancellation) A hunt costs what it costs.

As a client I am not privy to the nature of the relationship between an outfitter and a PH. I don't think it is any of my business and I am free to choose what the marketplace offers. If a PH makes me a good offer it is up to me to decide to accept or decline. If an outfitter makes me a good offer it is also up to me to accept or decline. Each has a service to sell and the risk of being satisfied or not with that service is mine.

It seems this "problem" is strictly between the PH's and the outfitters. Where does a "client's" point of view enter into it?

This happened to me when I first starting going to Africa. Being the naive person that I am, I didn't think much about it.

Since then, I have seen the rift that forms between outfitters and PH's when this happens, but every PH that goes independent to become an outfitter themselves is very probably doing the very same thing, but is now on the other side of the fence.

Welcome to the real world. Cut-throat business is happening everyday, all around you. If an outitter is struggling to keep in the black I can see their sensitivity about this. I used to get terribly depressed when I got squeezed out of a project in my little consulting business. But that is the way it is.

If you can smooze the clients, it is like any other business. You will be successful.

There are a few areas in Africa that offer such great hunting and that are sewn up so tight that the outfitter could probably care less if the hired-PH TRIED to steal clients. Where are they going to go?

It seems to me that the boys across the pond are doing quite well for themselves on the whole. $14 and 15K for a buff hunt? Yikes. And you are trying to keep hired-PH's from stealing clients? Good luck with that!

Chris, the problem is common and we all get it in the industry. Clients are not to be bothered with these things, as it will put them in a very tight spot IMHO. People behaviour differ from person the person, so clients will react differently on such "offers".

Contract the PH with a confidentiality and trade restriction clause and sue his pants of if he steps over the line. You quickly will become known by freelancers as an Outfitter that does not tolerate undercutting and related BS. So the guys that put the name on the dotted line do it for the right reasons.

You have my number, phone me direct if you want to discuss this. I am jut on a marketing road trip in Sweden at the moment, but will be back on 3 March.

Cheers from freezing Europe

Charl
www.infinito-safaris.com

My Dad use to say never close doors when you leave a company. its not right that a ph poach a client from a outfitter but lets look at reality.

1.if a ph does this and he bases his business on price alone he will not last for very long
2. if an outfitter loses a client he must investigate why, is it the service he offers, is it the way he hunts, is it his ethics is it his pricing.
3. the customer has a choice where and with who he wants to hunt if i hunt with a guy and i think he's an asshole i wont hunt with him again because im not only paying for the animals but for the experience aswell (not aimed at you Chris ) people do business with people they relate to. If a PH starts his own outfit and he does it the way i want it done i will hunt with him.

Plenty of companies has started because there is a nich in the market it will be the same in the hunting industry. the company that offers the best value for your money will be successfull doesnt matter if it 2k or 200k what do you get for it. do they exceed your expectations.

everybody gets cross if they loose a customer and we always want to blame the opposition but if you go the extra mile and treat every customer like a king they will not leave. sometimes we must look at our opperations with a critical eye and you will be shocked what you see. doesnt matter who or what you are

I don't think it has anything to do with hunting ethics. It's more like business ethics. It's a dog eat dog world out there and business men will do anything to make business. You have to make a living, but you have to do it in an honest way. Stealing is not honest and certainly not good for business. Marketing and offering the same service or better at a better rate is good business. As a client I will go with the best service and the best prices.

It's alot like buying a car here in SA. The manufacturers always publish the recommended retail price, but it is the dealerships that are offereing the vehicles and the customer service. I always go with the dealership that has the best prices combined with the best service. Why would I pay more for the same thing?

quote:

everybody gets cross if they loose a customer and we always want to blame the opposition but if you go the extra mile and treat every customer like a king they will not leave.

I definately have to agree here. I have been in the hunting industry pretty much my entire adult life. Client poaching is something I have witnessed for years. Its shady business for sure. I have run into a couple of outfitters that seem not to have any problems with it. Tommy Morrison and Ron Oliver rarely have clients jump ship. Many of Ron's clients are also mine and I find it amazing how fiercly loyal they are to him. Most of these clients have been around the bush a few times and don't like the action thats been thrown on them, but when they deal with a really good outfit they hang on tooth and nail.

Very interesting topic! I had this same discussion with "Elkfitter" a while back. Last summer while in a Namibia hunting camp at dinner one night this very issue came up between the PH's, clients and the outfitter. All of the PH's chimed in, actually handed out business cards at dinner and talked about what they had to offer at their own place. There was one PH though that sat quietly and never said a word, my PH. I was trying to understand the whole situation at the time because I thought it was odd as well. I kept an open mind and thought this maybe acceptable as "networking" in their country. They all seemed to get along great and it was business as usual. Maybe it was as said by another, if business is great it's OK, if not its unethical?
Here is where it gets interesting, all of the other PH's had higher prices than my outfitter! It came down more to what each could offer differently. I just listened and didn't say much. The next day I talked to my PH about this but he kept his mouth shut. I was not sure why 3 PH's and the outfitter were so open about this but the 1 PH was silent. I never did get much out of him except a great friendship. My PH did say that if we ever hunted together again that I was to keep it quiet. He was nice but firm. Maybe it was different business views than the others I'm not sure. He did invite me to come visit him again and we have built a great friendship. I would hunt with him in a heartbeat and wouldn't think twice. Businesses come and go but good friends last forever.
In talking about this with the outfitter, he said that in Namibia many of the PH's work together. If one has a great number of clients on a particular hunt and vice versa they help out. After hearing and seeing this I took it as business as usual in Namibia. Each of our 5 PH's had their own place and business and were very open about it.
When in camp or on this website when does it go from networking to researching to client stealing? I guess it depends on the point of view. Friends will always be friends.

Of course, there is the other side of the coin, where a client might book a safari with an outfitter and then be unhappy with the hunt for some reason. He might well then go back to the PH he actually hunted with and ask to book with him directly and hunt elsewhere. That is a much thornier issue and nowhere near as easy to resolve.

I guess it really depends on the individual circumstance. Clients after all, are free to do as they wish and if they choose to hunt elsewhere or with someone else, that's their perogative.

Thanks everyone for the replies and for voting!

Just a couple of points...

My viewpoint on this matter is based purely on what I consider to be appropriate behavior and ethical business practice when it gets to Outfitter / PH relationships. I was taught not to bite the hand that feeds me and therefore I am of the opinion that - when I hire a PH - giving him work and an income - it would be inappropriate for him to try and poach clients from me. Around here where I live 10 "PH's" fall out of every Marula tree you shake and most of them are begging for work. So when one gets the opportunity to hunt I believe there are better ways to thank his employer for the opportunity than to poach his clients...

But that's just my opinion and there are some whose views are obviously different from mine - something that I respect. I'm fully aware of the fact that poaching exists and is happening in the real world.

Please also note that I am not talking here about clients being unhappy with the service they got from an outfitter and then deciding to book with someone else. As we've seen on this forum - it happens that personalities clash from time-to-time... some clients have terrific times with Outfitters while others do not (remember the Boet Nel saga?).

So my intention with this poll was not as such to "involve" clients into issues that concerns PH's and Outfitters. I am just curious to know how other people including clients feel about the issue... At the same time I am curious to know how other Outfitters feel about it - thanks Shakari.

As a client, I feel its my perogative to book a hunt with whomever I desire for whatever reason I desire. Ive only hunted Africa once in my life so far ( 2 countries, Namibia and Eastern Cape of South Africa in 2003 with 2 different outfitters arraged thru a booking agent). Both my hunts were successfull in my mind, both in the trophies I took and brought (shipped) home and the experience I had (of course as the first trip I had nothing to compare against).

This coming May/June Im going on my 2nd trip to Africa, again 2 countries, again to Namibia for some PG and to Zimbabwe on a primarily a lepard and hopefully sable hunt. I'm NOT going with any repeat outfitters and didn't use a booking agent this time, only myself to make the arrangements with outfitters (one whom I was able to meet already at the 2008 DSC show). Its true we get what we pay for, BUT cost is important to me and working that 2nd job on weekends for the past 4 years is what getting me back to Africa again. No one poached or stole me from the previous outfitters I went with, I'm going to a different country for some diffferent animals so why wouldn't/couldn't I go with a different outfitter/PH of my choosing.

I'm looking forward to this trip, and regardless of the number of animals brought to bag, the idea of going to Africa again is whats the big thing in my mind, and while I hope to have fun, etc, if the experience is less than ideal, well, time will tell. Even if I have a good hunt with these outfitters and in future years get to go back for a 3rd time (maybe?) will I use the smae outfitters again, who knows, maybe, maybe not. Just because I make one trip with and outfitter/PH, and PAY him/them for a service doesn't necessarily make me "their" permanent client and I feel I'm free to choose whomever I want for my next trip.

All just my take on this as a client.

The guys I hunt with (and another one that I would like to hunt with) don't use a booking agent so that's not a problem I have encountered. I understand it is fairly common though.

What is the problem? It is called the free enterprise system.

465H&H

Hello

Oh my , some of these questions that come up,

When I did my PH Training , the Director/Owner promised that the first hunt as freelance would be for him, this was 12 years ago, for a year I talked and sought jobs too no avail, then a young man from Louis Trichardt, that only hunts with Spanish Clients called me for a short hunt,

I did that one , and then followed a long realtionship that lasts even till today, and I still guided for him after starting on my own a6-7 years ago.

His opinion , and I really consider him too be a outstanding businessman and outfitter, hsi this " IF THE OUTFITTER IS DOING HIS JOB NO PH CAN STEAL HIS CLIENTS "

And that has been proven too me time and time again, if you are the outfitter and provide a service that the client is extemely happy with and he does not feel then he will always book again, if he feels screwed or did not get the personal service then he will book with whoever next,

I feel this is the problem witht he outfits that gets too big, a real sausage machine, the client does not even meet the outfitter,

With me , I hunt small , and my ph's hunt with me, one client/group at a time, personal attention and they come back

Like others here, I believe the business relationship between a PH and the outfitter he works for is a private matter between them. The expactations of the actions of each should be set forth at hireing time, and agreed on, by both the PH, and the Outfitter. This has absolutely nothing to do with the client.

I have been offered to book dirrectly with the outfitter, on almost every hunt I've been on, cutting out the booking agent. To me, that is simply smart business practice, of cost cutting, of overhead, and not unethical at all. On the other side of this affair, I have also been offered a cost saveing safari, by the booking agent, with the same company he had booked me with before. In this case it was to allow the booking agent to hunt a little cheaper as well, but to allow me to hunt as well. The deal was he would book a 14 day Male lion, female lion, and leopard safari! I was to go along as a paying observer. The deal was we would combine, and split the hunting, and observer dailey fees right down the middle. All he wanted was the Male lion, and I could take his lioness, and the leopard on his license for trophy fees, and act as back up along with the PH on his lion, if needed.

It was evident, the outfitter was OK with this, because he still got all his money, either way. It seemingly made no difference who actually did the shooting, to the outfitter as long as he was Flush, at the end of the safari. It seems this was quite common in the late 80s, and early 90s, and seemed to be sattisfactory with all concerned! No extra animals were taken, no money was lost by anyone, but the cost shared by the client and observer, were lower, and allowed a return trip sooner by both! Ethical????? I'll let you be the judge!

Isn`t there a written agreement between the Outfitter and the PH`s. over thing the PH can do or can not do?

Normaly in Norway when a employer hired a man or a woman to work at his company, they sign a agreement wich contents the most important sides of the busines, as steeling customers/clients, or too deliver information to the other companies in the same business.

A question off topic: In wich way is it posible for a person from a anothoer country outside Africa, to get a uppurtunity to get a job and the PH course, and work for a Outfitter on regular basic?

The two biggest problems you face is firstly getting your first PH licence and secondly getting the experience to extend that licence to other countries.

South Africa offers PH courses, but as a non resident, you are not allowed to take the exams so can't actually get the licence..... but even doing the course, would give you a lof valuable experience. The bad news is that the course that is currently of 12 days duration, will soon be extended dramatically. Exact length has yet to be determined, but you can expect some months instead of weeks.

The other way to gain experience, is to contact safari companies elsewere in Africa and ask them to take you on as an apprentice. - It'll be very hard work, possibly without a salary, and for the first year at least, you can expect to do very little, if any hunting. You'll be fixing roads and servicing trucks etc. - But you still have to gain your first PH licence.

Thank you Shakari for your answer, I asked just to know, I`m too old (50 years) to go for that kind, I had to move for RSA, that would be nice, I like the country very well.

While I am not currently using an outfitter, I think they usually deserve their money and are a "cut-out" between you and the actual safari company/PH that can help with problems that arise before, during, or after the hunt. That said, the concept that an outfitter somehow "owns" me for future hunts is ridiculous and even considering it pisses me off. I've had a similar situation in another business where I was supposedly one sellers customer and he was telling others to stay away. Needless to say, when I found that out, it changed a good relationship for the worse. We all make our best deals, that's the way the system works. If the outfitter is good, then most of us, including me, will use him again, if not, we likely won't be using his safari company/ph again either.

Always a pleasure to be of help...... If you just want to do the course for the pleasure of doing it, you'll have fun and learn a lot, but do it soon, before the course gets extended...... but qualifying for your first licence, is really a young mans game......

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Always a pleasure to be of help...... If you just want to do the course for the pleasure of doing it, you'll have fun and learn a lot, but do it soon, before the course gets extended...... but qualifying for your first licence, is really a young mans game......

Yes my time on the schoolbench is over, maybe in my next life
I`v been in RSA for hunting several times, I shot my animals and I skinned them and took care of the meat, I learned to see the different of the tracks by the tracker that I followed, I enjoyd everything. Hopefully I go too RSA soon for more hunting.

Back too topic:
I think ìt must be important that the Outfitter and the PH`s make a agreement of what the PH`s can do or can not do, while he is employed at the Outfitter. Then everybody knows what to do

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
While I am not currently using an outfitter, I think they usually deserve their money and are a "cut-out" between you and the actual safari company/PH that can help with problems that arise before, during, or after the hunt. That said, the concept that an outfitter somehow "owns" me for future hunts is ridiculous and even considering it pisses me off. I've had a similar situation in another business where I was supposedly one sellers customer and he was telling others to stay away. Needless to say, when I found that out, it changed a good relationship for the worse. We all make our best deals, that's the way the system works. If the outfitter is good, then most of us, including me, will use him again, if not, we likely won't be using his safari company/ph again either.

Gatogordo (FAT CAT), I think you are confusing the OUTFITTER, with a BOOKING AGENT!

An OUTFITTER "IS" the Safari company, and normally the PH's work for the OUTFITTER! A BOOKING AGENT, simply books hunts for SAFARI Co. for a commission, and is a go-between, between you and the safari Co.

A good BOOKING AGENT + a good travel agent, are worth their weight in gold, when the planes start breaking down, and flights/connections are missed, or when the laws suddenly change in the country where you have booked. These guys can litterly save you butt!

However, if you know the outfitter/PH personally, and have hunted with them before, there is no reason not to book dirrectly with them, and get your own travel agent, like Gracey Travel + Trip insurance! Money in "ESCROW" is a soothing feature when thousands of dollars are involved!

As a booking agent I have had PHs offer the client a discount that amounted to my commission, not to go through me again but to come direct to them...The clients in most cases would return and tell me of the offer and I would drop the Safari company....

The safari company always called and denied it and had all kinds of excuses when it dawned on them that they had just cut off the hand that fed them and their family..

I would never book for them again under any circumstances and I still get emails from them wanting to start over. It's amazing how dumb greed can make some folks.

If a client goes direct to Pierre and books a hunt, Pierre sends me a commission, simple as that and I never had to tell him to do that, in fact I told him he didn't need to do that if he booked a client on his own, but he chose otherwise, and btw it has paid off for him in spades..I will work my butt off for an honest safari company...

I can not understand how anyone would vote YES!!!
WTF is wrong with the members who would actually hunt with a PH who cut out the Booking Agent or Safari Company. It just shows how greed by both the client and the PH.
No ethics!!!

For discussion purposes, if on a second hunt the client books directly with the safari company and the booking agent plays no part in the negotiations or planning of the safari. Exactly why does the booking agent disserve his 15%. He has no costs and he has already been paid for his previous trips work. Why should the client or safari operator have to pay that 15%?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
..I will work my butt off for an honest safari company...

Ray,

If ever I need a Booking Agent, or if ever you feel a need to represent yet another Plains Game and Wingshooting Hunting Outfitter, we should talk business!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Chris,

Poaching clients by Freelance PH's is an unfortunate fact of our business. It will go on forever!

But what can the you and I's do to curtail it in our own businesses?

Maybe a web page where there is a blacklist of PH names who have poached clients? Such a list will at least warn any Hunting Outfitter looking for a Freelance PH about past performances. Good behaviour from Freelance PH's could also be noted on such a list. Maybe such a web page can act as a "Freelance PH" wanted and offered type of resource?

Right now I will say that I need a few Limpopo-licensed freelance PH's who can speak GERMAN from 10 to 17 June 2008. Any offers?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren.

Andrew,

PM sent

Regards

Charl

This is nothing more then a free market system.

I'm an Air Force pilot and the airlines are always recruiting pilots.

It's the outfitters job to keep there clientele coming back with either great service or lower costs or both if that is not happening then I would expect the PH to do what he has to drum up business and in many cases the outfitter are very poor.

I personaly cut out the middle man any time I can.$$$$

465,
Thats easy to answer, because that was the original agreement between the Agent and the Safari Company..

I have my clients that I send to them, most of my clients have booked with me as many as 10 or more times, most all at least 3 or 4 times and many are members of the AR community such as the good judge, 1115, Palmer, Retrever, Saeed, and a host of other that I know by name but can't recall the AR name....

I don't have any contracts with the Safari Companies, just a verbal agreement, and I expect them to live up to their word and they expect the same from me, something that may seem old fashion, but thats the way I work...They or I can stop all negociations at any time, I only get paid for what I sell for them, like any other salesman...I don't beg for free hunts or any perks, I only hunt when offered to me for my good work and if I have time..I have an open invitation at several safari companies, but I am very carefull not to take advantage of this. They can go behind my back and make deal with my clients, nothing I can do about that, but I won't deal with them again once I find out and I do everytime..These are my clients and I take care of them, they are my responsibility as I see it and thats agreed on up front..

All emails and negociations are CC between me, client, and Safari Company, that way the left hand knows what the right hand is doing, and the client benifits..

Bottom line is if we can't trust each other then you, the hunter, would be the loser, because if they screw me then they will surely screw you....

I also might add that my 15% or whatever does not come out of the hunters pocket, and I don't allow by agreement, any company I book for to make deals without the consent of both of us and any comm. paid will be based on that...The 15% so quoted around isn't the case in many instances, I book some hunts for 10% of the total price of the hunt, others for 10 to 15% of the daily rate, some for less and some for more, I work with my Safari Companies so that it all works for the client, the Safari Company and my self, and in many instances I will negociate for the client himself, and try and get him the best deal I can, other times I will not...

It is a business, like any other business, but some want to make it into some kind of a conspiracy to quote one poster, its not...I wonder how each of your would react to having your personal business scrutinized on the internet? but I guess it goes with the territory, so I lay it out to you as best I can. so now you and the IRS know!

Andrew MeLarin,
Give me an email and let me know what you have to offer, I am always willing to listen..

I have a couple of outfits that I have booked for many years, but many times they are full, dates needed are not available, etc., I would be glad to use you after I check you out, talk to some references, you could do likewise, and we could probably come to an agreement..