quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Lane, I understand what you are saying about the antis pushing for this but I'm not sure Lacey will apply in the event of uplisting, simply in the act of hunting lion without the import.

For instance, the polar bear has been uplisted to endangered, unless I'm mistaken on that. Currently, is it illegal for a U.S. citizen to hunt polar bear without importing the trophy?

Todd,

It has never been used that way...but...

Read the Lacey Act carefully. Get an attorney friend to read it.

I have read it. And I have had attorney opinions on it. It ceartainly could be argued that the LA does make hunting and endangered species illegal for a US Citizen.

I am privy to, by recon means, information that suggests that the legal team for HSUS, Born Free, etc. plan to act with in the court system (ie: suits if necessary) to pressure the USF&W to use it in that way. It is the opinion of attorneys consulted that the wording of the act as is...leaves this door open.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I am speaking of the Endangered Species Act (ESA) in the USA.

Do youu have a link to the actual listings?

Matt,
You can get is off the net. I have but don't have the link right this second. The lion is not listed at this moment at all. The leopard is listed as threatened...making it legal with permit. The elephant is listed as threatened...same story. Rhino are listed as well. I think (not sure on this as I have not looked in a while) that whites are listed as threatened and blacks as endangered. Polar Bear 'I think' are listed as endangered.

The Animal Rights Groups in the US are a VERY formidable force to reckon with. They are organized. They are VERY well funded. That $1M for lion is a drop in the bucket compared to what they raise. And they like to fight.

Don't underestimate them. In veterinary medicine...I have already been party to being on the loosing side of an argument that commen sense and science put me on the correct side of. But at the end of the day...the animal rights groups outspent us $10,000.00 to $1.00.

Money always wins...I am sorry to say.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Lane, I understand what you are saying about the antis pushing for this but I'm not sure Lacey will apply in the event of uplisting, simply in the act of hunting lion without the import.

For instance, the polar bear has been uplisted to endangered, unless I'm mistaken on that. Currently, is it illegal for a U.S. citizen to hunt polar bear without importing the trophy?

Todd,

It has never been used that way...but...

Read the Lacey Act carefully. Get an attorney friend to read it.

I have read it. And I have had attorney opinions on it. It ceartainly could be argued that the LA does make hunting and endangered species illegal for a US Citizen.

I am privy to, by recon means, information that suggests that the legal team for HSUS, Born Free, etc. plan to act with in the court system (ie: suits if necessary) to pressure the USF&W to use it in that way. It is the opinion of attorneys consulted that the wording of the act as is...leaves this door open.

You would need to look at past rulings, not just the Act itself.

I found the listings. There are 'E' animals on there that can be legally hunted, without recourse from the US Govt.

http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_publi...ead=10&listingType=L

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Lane, I understand what you are saying about the antis pushing for this but I'm not sure Lacey will apply in the event of uplisting, simply in the act of hunting lion without the import.

For instance, the polar bear has been uplisted to endangered, unless I'm mistaken on that. Currently, is it illegal for a U.S. citizen to hunt polar bear without importing the trophy?

Todd,

It has never been used that way...but...

Read the Lacey Act carefully. Get an attorney friend to read it.

I have read it. And I have had attorney opinions on it. It ceartainly could be argued that the LA does make hunting and endangered species illegal for a US Citizen.

I am privy to, by recon means, information that suggests that the legal team for HSUS, Born Free, etc. plan to act with in the court system (ie: suits if necessary) to pressure the USF&W to use it in that way. It is the opinion of attorneys consulted that the wording of the act as is...leaves this door open.

You would need to look at past rulings, not just the Act itself.

I found the listings. There are 'E' animals on there that can be legally hunted, without recourse from the US Govt.

http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_publi...ead=10&listingType=L

Matt,
I stipulated several times that the act had not been used in such a manner before.

The letter of the law leaves it as a possibility...however. Just read it.

If you for one second believe that it may not be used that way in the future...you are näive.

The anti groups are already planning the action...I have seen the documentation.

We used to slaughter horses in the US. We had been doing so for over 100 yrs. The animal rights groups put it in their sights and got it outlawed in just 2 short years.

Huge businesses were shut down overnight. The science and all the case law was on the side of keeping slaughter legal. I was on a delegation that went to DC. With everything on our side...science, law, history, everything...but...we lost.