The two SuperPenetrator bullets below were recovered from elephants. The bullet path was frontal brain, out through the back of the skull, and down into the neck. Both bullets penetrated 38 inches. Both bullets were bent ahead of the front band. For those unfamiliar with the design, the SuperPenetrator is a non-expanding copper bullet with a steel disk in the nose.

Dan, what caliber are they and how fast were they driven?

Dan is that the same one Norbert talked about?

They were fired from a .375 H&H at 2450 fps (65.0 grains reloader 15). More info on the design generally is found here:

http://www.grosswildjagd.de/penetrat.htm

and here:

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/Superpenetrator.htm

any feeding problems with that disk up front?

A few questions:

My understanding is that the bullet is constructed for dependable penetration in the non bone parts of the animal. Accurate meaning that the bullet follows the bullet placed path with out deviation and penetrates deeply. If that is true, the bone test, even in the honeycomb structure of an ele is very impresive. Am I right?

Second, I've only seen them offered in 458, 416 and 366. Where did the 375 originate?

Third, I understand the disk diameter is a compromise forced by external ballistics to give a reasonable volectity within 150 yards. Otherwise a larger disk would be used. Am I still on track?

Fourth, the shape of the disk and immediate following body of the bullet is intended to cause flow separation immediately at the edge of the disk to create and maintain the cavity. Right?

Interesting pictures Dan. It appeared to my PH and I last year that the bullet I shot my elephant with had veared off course a bit inside the elephants head. Perhaps your pictures explain why this may have happened. Considering that my bullets and your bullets were from the same box, and travelling at the same speed, maybe it was a faulty batch?

Erik,

Not sure if this batch is representative or not since they are the only ones I have used.

_______________

I Bin Therefor,

My understanding was that these bullets are specifically designed for head shots on elephant, but I could be wrong. For body shots, a larger meplat will give larger wound channels and deeper penetration. Hopefully the designer can shed some light on the remainder of your questions.

I guess I would have to ask if an expanded and deformed tip, which is similiar to some Barnes X Bullets I have recovered, is better or worse than a bent solid. Which would keep the straighter track? Of course an undamaged bullet would be best.

Is this being sold as a replacement for solids or as a compromise between solids and softs?

Anyone else with actual pictures from animals?

Doesnt' the fellow who makes these post here occsionally? Maybe he could jump in on this?

Re: SuperPenetrator

This design concept is a follow up of studies on terminal ballistics. It is not a commercial issue. Field testing is made with two different materials from which the bullet is made: Soft copper/steel disk or brass or bronze with integrated disk.

A german manufacturer (Reichenberg) uses for his broad spectrum of bullets an unique, propriety manufacturing technology for soft copper. He integrated the Superpenetrator in this line, the soft copper esp. for use in double rifles.
As other bullets made from very soft copper, when hitting very hard bones they undergo a compression or deformation of the nose . This will broaden the nose and reduce the penetration capability. Sometimes they loose the disk at the end of it´s path. In the worst case they are acting like other soft copper FN bullets e.g. GS Custom FN, Bridger.
BTW: Frontal brain shot through the brain and hitting the neck, is more needed?
Absolutely no deformation is observed with bullets from harder alloys, e.g.brass. Here we see other manufacturers following the basic concept as P vander Walt wrote:
The meplat nose with sharp cutting edge concept (such as on the Superpenetrator) works, as that sharp edge is what Dzombo ascribes its good terminal performance according to Danie Joubert.
It is also important to notice that Barnes is busy moving away from its old style RN to a meplat nose with sharp cutting edge. Barnes is not doing it because it is a step backward. Randy Brooks knows what he does and why he implements changes.

In the meantime the Superpenetrator proves as a allround bullet. Tremendous killing power on plains game because of a high pressure wave build up in the animal.

quote:

Anyone else with actual pictures from animals?

elephant hunt

Where can you find this bullet?

Norbert,

I wonder if Herr Reichenberg should switch to hard copper or brass for making the SuperPenetrator as I have not seen as much damage/bending/nose ripping to GS Custom FN solids. For example:

quote:

In the worst case they (SuperPenetrator) are acting like other soft copper FN bullets e.g. GS Custom FN, Bridger.

Norbert,

Do we then conclude that when the disk comes off that it is not bullet failure? Looking at the bullets that were posted, can we say from that, that the disks came off just before the bullets came to a stop in the last centimeter or so?

Brass is much harder than copper and therefore much more durable for use as a non-deforming solid bullet, but the pictures of GS-FN bullets shows very little deformation (probably at modest striking velocity rather than high velocity). However, not all brass mixes are the same - some are softer and some are harder, depending on its intended use. Harder also means more brittle. As copper is more pliable, it stands to reason that it would deform a lot quicker at the nose that takes the brunt of the hit, especially when heavy bone is encountered.

I suspect that the Barnes Solid is made from 70/30 mix of copper and zink. The higher the zink content, the more brittle it gets. Overly long bullets are prone to bending, even in brass - eg 300 gr Barnes Solid.

The Dzombo Solid appears to be made from a harder Brass mix, but I am not sure as to its exact mix. I have seen some damage to their tips as well.

In contrast, the Rhino Solids are softer again. The brass mix that Rhino uses is specially made for them as recommended by a metalurgist - not to be brittle, but rather easier to machine and softer on the barrel. All retrieved Rhino Solids that I have seen so far looks almost like new, save for the engraving marks.

Chris

quote:

Do we then conclude that when the disk comes off that it is not bullet failure? Looking at the bullets that were posted, can we say from that, that the disks came off just before the bullets came to a stop in the last centimeter or so?

Chris,
Yes, even later. If the SP bullet undergos heavy stress in bone etc., it is compressed somewhat, the hole supporting the pin of the steel disk is widened and the copper is protruding sideways like a cup. The disk is still in its position, it is only separeted during recovering.
Recovered bullets:


But this is only the case with the recent copper/steel bullets esp. made for double rifles, where some manufacturers do not recommend brass bullets.

quote:

Brass is much harder than copper and therefore much more durable for use as a non-deforming solid bullet. However, not all brass mixes are the same - some are softer and some are harder, depending on its intended use. Harder also means more brittle. As copper is more pliable, it stands to reason that it would deform a lot quicker at the nose that takes the brunt of the hit, especially when heavy bone is encountered.
I suspect that the Barnes Solid is made from 70/30 mix of copper and zink. The higher the zink content, the more brittle it gets. Overly long bullets are prone to bending, even in brass - eg 300 gr Barnes Solid.

The brass mix is a problem. I used a 72 % Cu.
I never observed any bending. Stopping with a steel target was very "soft":
Unused,-recovered from ele, -stopped at a steel target:


The supply of suitable alloys is a problem for small bullet manufacturers. High copper content alloys are usually not in stock, they have to order about 1000 kg. Therefore some started their business with melted cases. Or they use very brittle brass supplied for armatures.

Norbert,

I would not call the copper alloy that Mr. Schultz uses "soft."

He has stated here last year I recall, that he uses a "half-hard" copper, which is actually quite hard.

This is a useful compromise for him between usinig it in his monolithic HP's and also the FN solid.

(A harder alloy would not be as likely to expand, or if it did, it would fracture. . . unless it was annealed as it is in a bonded bullet).

The North Fork alloy appears to be full-hard I think, but since it is annealed for use in the bonded soft point, works to perfection in both applications.

Bsed on their deformation (or lack of it) the brass Bridger is harder still.

A solid should not be any harder than it needs to be. (To save your barrel).

The North Fork appears to be about right. And the GS is barrel-freindly considering it has full length engraving of the rifling.

If your Super Penetrator bullet is being made from a soft copper alloy for use in double rifles, it will surely give them an undeservedly bad name. I would rather have a harder bullet, and would suggest going back to your original alloy.

The first thing my PH, Myles McCallum did when I recovered the NF FN and TCCI RN from my elephant was to roll them on a flat metal ruler to see if they "wobbled." He wanted to see how much they compressed or deformed. He was really looking for no deformation at all, and a bullet that could virtually be re-used.

In the late 1970's and early 1980's, I imported the armor piercing Arcane pistol bullets from France for the US Secret Service and other government agencies. They were lathe turned from a very hard Beryllium-copper alloy and could be re-shot after penetrating 3 1/2 bullet proof vests (70 layers of kevlar), or two car doors. They deformed with readily available softer copper alloys.

Andy

quote:

If your Super Penetrator bullet is being made from a soft copper alloy for use in double rifles, it will surely give them an undeservedly bad name. I would rather have a harder bullet, and would suggest going back to your original alloy.

Andy,
there is no "original" alloy. I tested 4 different sources of copper or brass and I am using the brass for ele hunting and the Reichenberg copper for all other animals with astonishing results.
I doubt that the Reichenberg copper is softer than e.g. the NF cup point.
But we are discussing here very single observations, for a detailed judgement we need a comparison of hardness and stress results of the copper monos on the market.

Norbert,

If you do not have a copy already, the Copper Rod Alloys For Machined Product guide, published by the Copper Development Association (CDA) lists over 100 copper and brass alloys, including their physical properties (machineability, tensile strength, yield strength, percent of elongation, hardness, shear strength and fatigue strength).

You can probably find the alloys you have tried there, and also those used by other manufacturers.

Tensile strength varies widely, from 32 to 205 ksi. (221 - 1415 MPa).

Andy

With jeffery denmark we tested some cnc machined solids made by him in hogs with his 500 jeffery magnum ,but i will like to have some of these to test on water buffalos ,where can i buy some .Juan

Andy.
I don´t know which alloys are used by other manufacturers.

Norbert,

You can ask them. I do!

Some, like TCCI and A-Square, are obvious or in their patent. (C3600).

You can find the hardest brass or copper alloy available in Europe in a reference book like this, start with that, and work down in hardness if it is too hard on your barrel.

Some coppers are 4 times harder than those used by name-brand bullet manufacturers, and some brass can be 3 times harder.

For expanding bullets a hard alloy that is anealed may be better than a softer alloy that is not.

Like I said, there is as much craft as science in making bullets.

I am sure you would enjoy experimenting with dfifferent alloys.

Take a look at berrylium coppers. They are the hardest available. At least they were when I was making Arcanes 24 some years ago.

Andy

Andy,
We manufacture spotwelding tips from beryllium copper. Regardless of how we tried to anneal or not, HVs could not be made to work as well as what we use normally and FNs were way too hard. The supposed gain ("the bullet could be loaded again") was a poor trade for the extra wear and increase in pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by Norbert:

Andy,
there is no "original" alloy. I tested 4 different sources of copper or brass and I am using the brass for ele hunting and the Reichenberg copper for all other animals with astonishing results.
I doubt that the Reichenberg copper is softer than e.g. the NF cup point.
But we are discussing here very single observations, for a detailed judgement we need a comparison of hardness and stress results of the copper monos on the market.

So what Reichenberg is producing, in effect, is a bullet sold for hunting elephant, yet is constructed in such a way, and with materials that should perhaps limit it to smaller game.

I gather that this is correct, since you yourself use a brass version for elephant, and not Reichenbergs copper version.

Reichenbergs website/shop: http://www.spezialgeschosse.de/

I see in his webshop, when clicking on the Super Penetrator, that he has this information next to a couple of pictures of elephant:

quote:

Super Penetrator

The SuperPenetrator , a special non deforming bullet for big game hunting, is now available. It is the type from copper monometal with a steel cavitator disk. It shows very stable penetration in game and no deviation, tumbling, bending or fishtailing and a up to fourfold penetration length in animals. Only intended for big game it will fabricated in cal. .416 with 300 grs and 350 grs bullet weight and in .458 with 400 grs and 450 grs.
This bullets also featuring diving bands and there are aequivalent deformation copper bullets (softs) available.

Perhaps he should reword what is stated there, since it is brass Super Penetrators, and not his copper ones, which apparently are most effective on elephant?

quote:

I gather that this is correct, since you yourself use a brass version for elephant, and not Reichenbergs copper version.

That is my personal decision, since I have only .458 500 grs in brass and 400 grs in copper for flat shooting. I never heard, that the copper version is not effective on elephant.