Having hunted for thirty years with a scope I thought that hitting a six inch target at twenty yards with open sights would be straight forward - wrong !!!
I have just taken delivery of a new Krieghoff 470NE double for my elelphant hunt next year.
I find that as the rifle is short overall the open sights are two close to my eye to allow for easy focus. I took the scope off my 9.3 and found that this was much better as the rifle was longer overall and both the back and front sight were farther away from my eyes which made for easier focusing. Is this a common problem? I will persevere with my practice for a while longer because I love the idea of hunting with the double, but if I dont become confident with my accuracy I will have to change to a longer magasine rifle. Looking at all the stats it would appear that the 458Lott is the closest to the 470NE, but you hear and read very little about this calibre, why is that?
Advice please.

Hello,
Well, a solution to the problem would be to visit your eye doctor and seek out glasses to resolve the problem, but if you are like many, glasses in hot steamy weather, being knocked sideways while going through the brush, steaming up as they say, etc. is not a good solution. Sounds that you may want to consider a bolder bead/blade front sight, very easy to see white or bright color triangle type rear sight blade to enable you to quickly pick up the sights and place the shot.
Now, as for the 458 Lott, probably the premium big bore of the century, but not for double rifles. Magazine rifles are quite common in the caliber for few if any big bores offer so much versatility with the ability to load more than any human can likely stand recoil wise to that of the lowly 45/70 caliber. You will not be giving anything away with the 458Lott caliber and quite capapble of any game you are likely to encounter. However, one primary, absolute requirement, you must be able to hit your target and properly I might add!! Good luck.

There are red dot sights and mounts available for your rifle that would solve your problem easily. They are very versatile and VERY fast as you don't actually seem to have to focus on anything but the target.

Glasses won't solve your problem. Only a time machine will.

Don't know your age, but I'm willing to bet that it is on the downhill side of 40. As we age, the ability of the eye to focus on objects at different distances deteriorates (even if your eyesight is excellent). An open sight requires you to focus in three planes at once: The rear sight, the front sight, and the target. As you've found, this is especially difficult, if not impossible, if the rear sight is too close to the eye since farsightedness is a problem for most peoople who are even close to being a baby-boomer.

On the other hand, the aperture sight is much easier to use since the eye doesn't need to actually focus on the rear sight, just peer through it. But easiest and fastest of all is a low-power, properly mounted scope with good eye relief (or a zero-power optical dot sight). This is because you only have to be able to focus in ONE plane, that of the scope image.

It is a myth, and absolute foolishness, to believe that any kind of iron sight is faster to aim with than a scope (assuming the qualifications for the scope I outlined above are met.) The only way that iron sights are "faster" is to simply disregard them and point the rifle like a shotgun. This is fast, but it is not aiming, it is pointing. If your target is big enough and close enough, this works fine. "Pointing" rather than "aiming" at a cape buffalo that is only thirty feet away and closing fast is by far the better strategy. However, if you want to shoot a cape buffalo standing 75 yards away where it hurts the most, use a scope.

Robert,

How are you? You are now apparently on a mission, eh? My book is still for sale. Okay for postage, after I promised you a copy.

Also buy a copy of Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges. He discusses sights. He da man.

I found that a large white front bead (the flip up front night sight on a Krieghoff like mine is small but better than the useless brass beads) is a step in the right direction. It is still somewhat fuzzy for me but can shoot pretty accurately out to 25 or so yards (elephant territory), if you want to preserve the traditional look of the rifle.

Taylor suggests trying to move the rear sight forward. You can try this with a pretend paper cutout rear sight in your house to see if it apppears to help before running off to the gunsmith. Buying a bolt rifle isn't really going to help with the sighting problem (where one has to focus on both sights and the target at the same time). At least it doesn't make a difference to me.

And a 458 WM, not the Lott, is the same as a 470.

If I was serious I'd try to get the 'smith to make a barrel mounted peep sight for your K. This would solve 90% of the problem. Could also make a pretend peep sight from a piece of paper/cardboard to see how much easier it is to focus on just the front sight.

Cheers, or whatever they say in limey country!

R. Jolly,

I think Will's idea of the ghost ring would solve your problem but you also might want to try just increasing the LOP. Get a couple of different slip on recoil pads and see if they fix your problem. Getting your eye an inch or so farther back might make all the difference in the world. The NECG fiber optic bead might help also.

Mark

Yep, I'm the victim of "Too Many Birthdays"!

Now, my new Chapuis sports a scope. Some time later this year I'll send my Hollis to JJ Parodeau at Champlins and install claw mounts on my 450/400 3 inch. I hate to, but I really have no other choice, other than "see the target or see the sights", I can't do both now!

Hello R.Jolly,
I would highly suggest you seek professional eye care/remedys and then seek out a sight system that best suits your vision issues. Good luck.

RJ,

Assuming that it's your aging eyes at issue, can assure you that I wear bifocals with a +1.25 correction for distance (and a bit for astigmatism ) as well as +2.75 for the lower reading glasses part.

I use the iron sites of my 500/450 (as close as can be to your .470)through the distance corrected part of my bifocals. It simply takes practice to ensure the same sight picture each time and then some more practice in quick-shooting drills to add a little pressure. I can use that double off hand to fifty meters without hesitation.

Get your eyes checked. Get glasses if you need them and practice.
Regards, Tim

Regarding eyeglass fogging, you can drop by your friendly dive shop and pick up a bottle of the anti-fog stuff they sell for face masks and coat your glasses prior to entering the fray. Works for me.

sorry but you are just a old fart

It is true we all get our eyes changeing with age, but the misconception that your eyes can focus on more than one distance at once is common. The human eye can only focus on one distance at a time, but when you are young, they can change from one distance to another so quickly, and accurately that they seem to focus on both sights, and the target at once. As we age, it takes too much time to change distance, and our close in vision simply goes away with out help.

The key here is, to find a 1X scope, and get the rings and bases for your Krieghoff, and mount this long eye relief scope on it. The 1X allows you to shoot with both eyes open, and a bold reticle, like a No4 german post and crosshair will give you the ability to see the target, and the sight on the same plane! The both eyes open will inhance your perferal vision as well, much like good Iron sights!

Your Krieghoff is usually fitted with removable blocks, so the bases can be simply installed, and the 1X scope is not eye relief critical, so can be mounted as far forward as the rings allow. There is absolutely no sin in mounting a scope on a double rifle! I have no idea where that misconception came from!

Good luck, and put one in the brain basket!..........

If the other recommended options do not work, and you do not want to mount a conventional scope, take a hard look at the Docter Optic sight.

I have 2 of them. They are high quality and work very well.

Even if you shoot from your right shoulder and are left eye dominate, like me, this sight WILL solve your problem.

Red dot sights ARE faster and more accurate than iron sights, on pistols or rifles.
Just ask most any IPSC world class shooter, Spec OP Soldier or SWAT Cop.

I have tested many of the red dot sights, and for us hunters and expecially Double Rifle shooters I like the Docter Optic best.

Get the one with the 3.5 MOA dot for your rifle.

quote:

The human eye can only focus on one distance at a time, but when you are young, they can change from one distance to another so quickly, and accurately that they seem to focus on both sights, and the target at once.

Largely true, but there's another factor that helps young eyes: The smaller the pupil, the longer the focal length (that's why it is easier to focus on something in good light than in dim). Young eyes typically can see in the same light with a more restricted pupil, thus they have a longer focal length. This is similar to turning the stop way down on your camera and finding that everything from near to far is in clear focus. But when the aperture is wide open, the focus is critical and is only sharp for objects within a very narrow range.

Whatever the phenomenon at work here, it's still hell getting old.

By the way, if you're a little nearsighted, try looking at your target through a small aperture. You'll be amazed how simply using this mechanical "stop" helps clear up the focus on an object that would otherwise be blurry. Of course, this needs to be in good light for it to work. But it is true that you can actually see "better" (focus better)though an aperture sight.

I know Use Enough Gun sent his Merkel back to the factory and had them put a fiber optic sight on it. It's considerably easier to see when the gun is up. You may send him a PM and see if he has thought about doing this with your Krieghoff.

RJolly,

Many good suggestions here, esp testing the cardboard peep and 3.5 MOA Docter red dot.

But have you tried just focusing on your FRONT sight?

Let the rear sight and target go fuzzy.

I am 55 years old and it works for me.

Andy

Variable correction contact lenses are available as well. Te pair I tried allowed better clarity for the sights. But I didn't like them anyway. You might try them though.

Also, if you file your bead so that there is a ~25* angle from low toward the muzzle to high closer to the muzzle, and polish it, it will stand out bright in any light and works great against elephant heads - or any other game, like buff... It is so bright that you needn't consciously focus on it since you eye picks it up so well.

JPK

JPK has given you some good advice about filing the foresight to give you greater visibility, but if you want absolute maximum visibility, you should go for a red fibre optic foresight. They might not look quite the thing on a traditional double, but you can't beat them for fast and clear target acquisition. I put one on my .500 some years ago, and simply cant imagine anything better.

The problem may be as simple as your target selection and practice. Before I would change any components on the rifle or change the rifle for that matter use a larger target with 3 dimensions. For example, at 20 yrs shoot at a gallon plastic milk jug. If you can consistently hit this target at this distance, move your yardage back or drop the target size down to a 1/2 gallon. If you are hitting this target every time, move on to smaller size target like a beer can or clay target.

There is something very easy about picking up with your eyes a 3 dimensional target. Once you master this, than shooting paper will be second nature.

In addition, practice and focus throughout the day. Example: Driving down the road, you see a stop sign. Focus on the sign, then really look into the sign and focus on the "letter O", next focus on the space within the "O." This narrowing down exercise will teach your eyes to hard focus clearly on your target.

On the hunt, you see your animal....focus on the vital area, than really focus on a something smaller like a hair out of place or mud spot on the animal and at that point you pull the trigger. You will never miss. Otherwise you will shoot the whole animal and either miss it completely or a poor shot would result.

It may be the big bore and a flinch problem. Re-train yourself with the above technique with an open sight .22 caliber. If you can hit a clay target taped on your back stop....its not your eyes!

Good advice daleW I'd second that. Also consider - shooting with open sights, sometimes depends on moon phase and tide - i.e. never make any changes based on a single session at the range IMO.

Of all the advice I like daleW's the most.

The first thing to do is have the gun fitted to you by someone that REALLY knows his stuff. I don't know where you are, but in South Africa Fanie & Eugene Combrink of Sabi Arms, Nelspruit are the right folk. (They are the local Krieghof agents) Sabi Rifles

Then try get another "friendlier" to shoot calibre set up with similar sights.

Then shoot, shoot and shoot some more. Changing between the 470 and the other.

And try find an association such as ours to really get ready BASA

Also read Fred Everett's books "Heat, Thirst & Ivory" and his latest "Tuskers in the Dust" He gives good detail on the practice he did for hunting elephant from a VERY young age. They are available from Zimbi Books

Enjoy.....

Thanks for everyones comments.
Hi Bill; yes this is all your fault for showing me your Krieghoff in Zim last year. Sorry to have to contradict a learned person like your goodself, but according to Richard Harland in his book "The Art Of Hunting The African Elephant" the 458Lott is credited with a damage potential quantity of only slightly less than that of the 470 and yet considerably more than the 458 Win mag. As a person who hasn't got a clue about such things I will leave it to those better qualified to adjudicate on this one.
( Come on boys give Bill an argument )
Back to the sighting problem. Everyone has been correct with their assesment of the problem, even we "limeys" can have shit eyesight.
Mine however is excellent ( as long as I'm wearing my contact lenses ) With them my distance vision is great; without them my near vision is great. I'm sure that there is some technical name for this other than "old fart syndrome" - thanks Trevor !! , but open sights certainly show up the difficiency.
First chance I get I will be trying out the temporary back sight movement and peep sight ideas. Call me stubborn or just plain ignorant, but I wouldn't even consider putting a scope on a double. It would be like putting off road tyres on a porsche. I will persevere for a good while yet to get things right, but at the end of the day if I have to give up on the double so be it. The main thing will always be having the confidence that I can put that bullet where I want it.

Just a note I forgot....

I put a ghost ring peep on my 375 H&H Sako rifle and it just did not work for the BASA shoots. Moving targets are HELL with it.

Also, with dangerous game, focus on the game not the sights. The sights MUST just be automatically where they always are. ie. FIT/PRACTICE

Big Bore Assoc Southern Africa

Tony,

Have you tried the Burris fast fire? I was wondering how it stacked up against the Doctor Optics. I am considering one for my 9.3x62.

Thanks,

Brian

Robert,

I hope you are misquoting Richard Harland. I never saw any difference between the Lott, the 470, and the 458 WM. I would venture that the laws of physics outlaw any significance difference between a 470 and the 458 WM. Possibly those guys south of the Sahara have seen too much sun.

I suffer from the same: without glasses, I have good distance vision but poor near vision. Try what I suggested as I am curious as to what you think.

I grew up shooting iron sights, I have cateracts and still can shoot iron sights..I can shoot irons with glasses and never found glasses to be a problem on any hunt, anywhere. I would venture to say that 98% of our hunters wear glasses btw.

I'm 73 and still prefer irons on my DGRs with a scope for a backup if I see a Kudu or whatever at some distance beyound 200 yards.

BTW, I am getting the caterax fixed this month and next month, so thats a no brainer for you that have them, its an easy fix.

In this gentlemans case, I get the impression he cut his teeth on a scope, in which case that is where his confidense lies, therefore a low powered scope is the answer for him..Why bother with irons, unless you just want to learn to shoot them..A ghost ring is also a great sight, fast and accurate, again only if you know how to use it..

Also in his case the gun does not meet his needs, the stock is apparantly too short and the rear sights is in the wrong place, adding a leather recoil pad might be a good start and give him some stock length and a rear sight can be moved I suspect.

Its a case of buying a rifle that simply does not fit the user, and thats a tough nut to crack, as its a big investment.

The 458 Lott is a great caliber if you can handle the recoil as its a bit horrendous with full loads, but load it down and its doable, well almost...

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
RJolly,

Many good suggestions here, esp testing the cardboard peep and 3.5 MOA Docter red dot.

But have you tried just focusing on your FRONT sight?

Let the rear sight and target go fuzzy.

I am 55 years old and it works for me.

Andy

I'm 65 and it works for me, also. Being blind in one eye, I get a better field of view with irons should a follow up be required.

So,there you go. You have your choice of:

New sights.
No sights.
Scope.
No scope.
Peep or don't peep.
Move the sights.
Don't move the sights.
New glasses.
No glasses.
New contacts.
No contacts.
Eye surgery.
Gouge your eyes out.
A shorter stock.
A longer stock.
A new stock.
Practice if you can see the sights.
Practice if you can't see the sights.
Wear a different hat.
Keep your hair cut.
Get a frontal lobotomy.
Or, a rear lobotomy.
Butch up.
You don't need no stinking sights.

Any other questions?

Will,
All of that is good advise, however, you forgot to tell him to hold his mouth more to the left or more to the right. Many an activity has been spoiled because someone wasn't holding their mouth right.



Brian

RJolly,

You have some great advise here. Let me urge you to see your eye doctor. I noticed my sights were getting blurred, went to the doctor, and I've got cataracts developing. They make everything a little blurry, especially light and at night.

My sister-in-law uses the Ronald Reagan trick, of one closeup contact and one distance contact. You brain controls the eye dependent upon what you want to focus on.

For safety sake, you could get a pair of "bifocal" shooting glasses. You'd have to get the fancy ones that don't have lines. By moving your head slightly you can focus from close up through middle distance like computer screen or front sight to reading distances.

I really recommend wearing some form of eye protection because of the danger of a thorn bush or grass hitting you while on the truck as well as a pierced primer or other mishap. Kudude

I am 65 and suffer the "old eyes" problem as well. Recently I was handling a friends turkey gun. It had a bright green rear sight with a bright orange front. Voila, I could see again. I know Kieghoff offers such a system for their doubles so a solution is out there. Just be careful to avoid solvents on the fiber sights. Good luck!

I am 54 and have the same problem, the sights on my Merkel were useless. I found a company that made steel replacement peep sights for sks and ak's. The sight was perfect match for the rib.
We shortened the base and drilled two hole through it. I took the rifle to a very good smith and drilled two maching hole into the rib useing a mill. The sight has windage built into it. I just reduced the hight of the front blade.
The brass blade was nothing but trouble. It glared too much or you could not see it at all. On the last DRSS hunt I had several nice bucks in front of the stand. as the sun was setting I would throw up the rifle and sight in on deer. Has it got darker, I could not see the brass blade, but still see the deer. I took out my lighter and smoked the blade black.
I got at least 5 more minutes of shooting time maybe even 10. My 06 with the 6X german scope with heavy post was good for a 1/2 hour more on a moonless night.

JD

JD

It's called presbyopia-old eyes. I'm 53, and I have found two things that can mitigate. I replaced the front brass bead on my Searcy BSS 470 with a fiber optic front sigh from NECG. Midway sells them.
Also, I had a pair of hunting glasses made with a "reverse bifocal" on the right lense. This means a +1.0 diopter bifocal on the TOP of the lense, the part you look through when sighting. I use +1.75 for reading, but your rear sight is not as close to your eye as the newspaper. Mine were made by Decot after I saw their ad in SCI, but your local optical house likely could do it.
Really, I think the biggest problem for us aging boomers is that we grew up with optical sights, and are more cofident and competent with them. A lot of it is mental.

R.Jolly

Why give up on a double? You are using the same eyes whether you are shooting a double or a bolt rifle.

Try some of the suggestions these guys have given you.

When a "scope shooter" switches to iron sights, there is a learning, confidence building curve.

It takes practice and time to build up confidence in iron sights even if your eyes are perfect 20/20.

If you would scope/red dot a bolt rifle, then scope/red dot your double.

Red dots and scopes work, they do what they do, they do not know, or care what kind of rifle they are on.

Baised on what you have said, and others in your same "condition", and baised on my tests, I think a Docter Optic would cure all you problems, and be the smallest, lightest easiest to use, "modern" sighting device there is.

I have an old Westley Richards Catalog from the early 1900's, they show several different double rifles fitted with the early prism scope mounts of the day.

Brian
I have not tried out the Burris sight.

however I have shot several hundred rounds thorough a Docter Optic on M-16 type rifles, and many rounda with one on my Blaser 375 H&H Tracker bbl.

I do know the Docter Optic is first quality in every way.

Thanks Tony. I had one of the Burris on an old 8mm Mauser for a few days, but only got to send about ten rounds through it before I had to take it off and send it to the intended recipient. It worked really well from what I could tell, I liked the overall operation, design, etc, but wondered if it would lose 0 after a bunch of rounds (couple of 100 or so) out of a 9.3. Probably not...
Thanks again and I will look up the Doctor Optics and see how they compare, price, etc.
Brian

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
Tony,
Have you tried the Burris fast fire? I was wondering how it stacked up against the Doctor Optics. Brian

Allout,
I've got one on order for my Lott, I figure if it will hold up on the slide of a racegun, it will stand up to enough .458 rounds to scramble my CPU.

What research I did indicated that the Dr. Optic was made by the same people that make the Fast Fire. Probably some specification differences to justify the $ difference.

I'll let you all know once it gets here...

Get a fiber optic sight on it and you'll be able to see.

Thanks Rick. I would appreciate hearing your experience with the Fast Fire on the Lott. I look forward to it.
Brian

Don't complicate your life with all this advise.

Get out there and LEARN to shoot open sights..When I started golf, I couldn't hit the ball, when I started roping I couldn't catch a steer, when I started crawling I couldn't walk..

Get some glasses if you need them and learn to shoot open sights, a 6" bull at 25 yards is easy to do if you don't flinch...A 6 inch bull at 100 yds is easy once you learn to shoot irons.

Glasses btw are not a problem in hunting, I been wearing bifocals for almost 30 years and never a problem other than that first year, and it was a bitch, what with falling off curbs and stuff.

Oh yeah, forget the gimmicks, the batteries, and all that stuff..use a simple rock solid shallow V or even a receiver sight with the disc taken out of it..