20 million buffalo cow

17 April 2012, 16:59

boltshooter

Luan & African Hunters Quest,

I've hunted on a South African, low fenced ranch three times in the last four years (Limpopo area). The hunts were, IN MY OPINION, fair chase hunts. During my actual pursuit of game a fence never influenced the outcome of the hunt. (As an example my 1st African hunt included an eland. We hunted eland for 2 1/2 days before finally getting the right bull at the right time. All that I had read before the hunt about hunting eland was true; they did not run away BUT TROTTED AWAY KEEPING ENOUGH COVER BETWEEN ME & THEM TO AVOID THE KILL SHOT. It was a challenging, fun hunt.)

My question is this, What is the normal and average time line for fenced, South African safari ranches to hunt the offspring of the PURCHASED GAME ANIMALS? I'm assuming these operators purchase these game animals as breeding stock to build their ranch herds and not for immediate trophy hunting.

Some hunters hold the opinion that stocked, fenced hunting is canned hunting; from my limited experience this hunting was just short of true free range hunting and is fair chase & challenging.

In short I believe:

A. Ranches with purchased breeding stock produce game herds that ARE NATURALLY BORN IN THE FENCED IN AREA

B. The initial breeding animals are not hunted

C. The GAME BORN & RAISED IN THE FENCED PROPERTY IS FREE RANGING (RELATIVE TO THE SIZE OF THE RANCH).

Although this post may generate some strongly held opinions I am asking the question to verify my own thinking; as has often been said on this web site - It is the hunters responsibility to find out if his hunt is legal & fits his or hers hunting ethics.

17 April 2012, 17:02

Scriptus

quote:
Originally posted by boltshooter:
Luan & African Hunters Quest,

My question is this,

WHAT ????

17 April 2012, 17:27

boltshooter

quote:
Originally posted by Scriptus:
quote:
Originally posted by boltshooter:
Luan & African Hunters Quest,

My question is this,

I've got to work on my keyboard skills; hitting the wrong key at the wrong time.

WHAT ????

17 April 2012, 17:28

Bwanamich

quote:
We hunted eland for 2 1/2 days before finally getting the right bull at the right time.

Is that considered a long hard hunt? I believe many a hunter would sign up now if they were assured an eland in 2 1/2 days hunting.......

17 April 2012, 17:40

Fritz Rabe

quote:
Originally posted by boltshooter:
Luan & African Hunters Quest,

I've hunted on a South African, low fenced ranch three times in the last four years (Limpopo area). The hunts were, IN MY OPINION, fair chase hunts. During my actual pursuit of game a fence never influenced the outcome of the hunt. (As an example my 1st African hunt included an eland. We hunted eland for 2 1/2 days before finally getting the right bull at the right time. All that I had read before the hunt about hunting eland was true; they did not run away BUT TROTTED AWAY KEEPING ENOUGH COVER BETWEEN ME & THEM TO AVOID THE KILL SHOT. It was a challenging, fun hunt.)

My question is this, What is the normal and average time line for fenced, South African safari ranches to hunt the offspring of the PURCHASED GAME ANIMALS? I'm assuming these operators purchase these game animals as breeding stock to build their ranch herds and not for immediate trophy hunting.

Some hunters hold the opinion that stocked, fenced hunting is canned hunting; from my limited experience this hunting was just short of true free range hunting and is fair chase & challenging.

In short I believe:

A. Ranches with purchased breeding stock produce game herds that ARE NATURALLY BORN IN THE FENCED IN AREA

B. The initial breeding animals are not hunted

C. The GAME BORN & RAISED IN THE FENCED PROPERTY IS FREE RANGING (RELATIVE TO THE SIZE OF THE RANCH).

Although this post may generate some strongly held opinions I am asking the question to verify my own thinking; as has often been said on this web site - It is the hunters responsibility to find out if his hunt is legal & fits his or hers hunting ethics.

Good question Boltshooter.
Buying live game on an auction does not mean that the game are tame. They are WILD! South Africa perfected the art of Game Capture over the years.
Normally, when animals are caught they get injected with a "long term relaxant" or stress reliever like Haloperidoll. This is needed to calm them down during transport. When animals are caught, they are chased into a boma and straight into a game truck and transported imediately so as to minimize stress. Stress kills them faster than any other factor.

When they get off the truck on the new property they will appear tame because of the relaxant. It wears of in 10 - 14 days and then they will be true to their own self except for any sound that resembles a Helicopter. They are shit-scared of that sound if they were caught once.
Them and their offspring are as wild as any game in any open concession. It is well known in South Africa that if you hunt on foot on a small property 1 000 acres and smaller that you will have a tougher time getting a good trophy because the animals know every escape route and will have you run around in circles the whole time.

17 April 2012, 17:49

Aspen Hill Adventures

Fritz,

I wonder if that is the same drug as Haldol? Interesting if it is!

I've never run across 'tame' wildlife while hunting in RSA. If it wasn't for the game ranches there wouldn't be much hunting for the average wage earner to be had on the African Continent at all.

It's my understanding these buffalo are more than likely free of disease which has been a hard fought victory for the RSA ranchers. Thus the high cost of stocking properties with buffs...

Even better, these ranches have far and above prevented extinction of the wonderful variety of hoof stock to be found over there.

17 April 2012, 18:09

luan

Thx aspen we as ranchers put in alot of money and time to try and get disease free buffalo and yes the price is way overboarrd but congrats to my family selling the cow.We trying to get buffalo hunting up to standards that was 30 years ago and believe me we going to hunt buffalo in 50 inches on free range farms.

Im just saying well done and congrats SOUTH AFRICAN GAME RANCHER we getting slack everywhere from zimbos to leatherseat hunters but watch out maybe oneday SA only place to hunt.

Luanp

17 April 2012, 19:13

Bushwack

quote:
Originally posted by luan:
Thx aspen we as ranchers put in alot of money and time to try and get disease free buffalo and yes the price is way overboarrd but congrats to my family selling the cow.We trying to get buffalo hunting up to standards that was 30 years ago and believe me we going to hunt buffalo in 50 inches on free range farms.

Im just saying well done and congrats SOUTH AFRICAN GAME RANCHER we getting slack everywhere from zimbos to leatherseat hunters but watch out maybe oneday SA only place to hunt.

Luanp

Actually it is a cow (guaranteed pregnant) plus n calf making it 3 for R20m. Luan is Piet de Toit family?

17 April 2012, 19:45

luan

Bushwack

YES he is and a great guy.

Luan

17 April 2012, 19:53

Fritz Rabe

quote:
Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
Fritz,

I wonder if that is the same drug as Haldol? Interesting if it is!

I've never run across 'tame' wildlife while hunting in RSA. If it wasn't for the game ranches there wouldn't be much hunting for the average wage earner to be had on the African Continent at all.

It's my understanding these buffalo are more than likely free of disease which has been a hard fought victory for the RSA ranchers. Thus the high cost of stocking properties with buffs...

Even better, these ranches have far and above prevented extinction of the wonderful variety of hoof stock to be found over there.

Hi Ann.
Tame wildlife on SA ranches is a myth that we just came to live with. It was a story that came about from the open concession holders in Africa to market their places. Our company also holds open concessions as well as Game farms so I know.
People think that because an area is fenced, that the game is either tame or that they do not have a chance if hunted. They do not think that most game species have a home range and it happens more often than not that it's natural home range is less than the size of the property.
The one thing that is a HUGE plus to a hunter hunting on a SA farm is that the owner of the property has TOTAL control over the place and Government has almost no say. Not like in other countries where there are a lot of red-tape and a concession can suddenly be forced to close for a time.
Also, the game can not move off/out of the area during a drought or some other reason and then the client sits in an area where there are no Buff or animal that he came for.
I do not know many outfitters that will inform a client that there are none of the animals of his choice in the area at the moment and is willing to refund him his deposit.

It is true:
In a few years SA will be the only place left in Africa where there will be any hunting because of the Game Ranchers.

17 April 2012, 20:02

Kathi

http://www.citypress.co.za/Sou...l-loses-out-20120414

Buffalo soldier Cyril loses out
2012-04-15 10:00

Money was no object when the super-rich faced off on Friday night in a challenge to buy Africa’s biggest buffalo cow.

But in the end, Cyril Ramaphosa was beaten by Jaco Troskie, son of Bloemfontein film magnate Boet Troskie, who paid a record R20 million for the buffalo cow – and her calf – at a game auction near Rustenburg.

Ramaphosa bid up to R19.5 million, but decided to call it a day at that point.

Earlier, as the figure approached R10 million, most of the bidders, who arrived in flashy cars and as many as 10 helicopters, started to quit.

That left only three big guns – Ramaphosa, Troskie and Peter Bellingham, who paid a record R18 million for a buffalo bull called Senatla last year.

Approximately 2 000 onlookers and prospective buyers burst into applause when the bidding reached the R18 million mark.

But in the end, with a single, almost unobtrusive, gesture, Troskie indicated he would raise Ramaphosa’s bid by another half a million rand. Deal done.

Now he is the proud owner of the biggest buffalo cow in captivity anywhere in the world, and her calf.

Seller Piet du Toit burst into tears when the auctioneer’s hammer came down.

“I put up for sale the animal with the best genes and hoped for the best, but this exceeds my wildest expectations,” Du Toit said.

The auction was held on Du Toit’s farm and about 250 animals were sold.

Troskie said R20 million was a bargain.

“When the cow has four calves, I will already have got my money back,” he said.

Ramaphosa said later that his budget did not allow him to pay R20 million for the cow.

“I spent my budget on other animals. And, like any businessman, you must know when to stop,” he said.

Du Toit said there was tremendous interest in scarce game because of their immense investment value.

“The buffalo market in particular was made lively by people who went deeper and deeper into the bush to find the big bulls, and started breeding super genetics.

“In the end, these animals are preserved for future generations,” he said.

- City Press

17 April 2012, 20:44

larryshores

This thread scared me. I thought it was about my ex wife! What a relief!

17 April 2012, 20:55

African Hunters Quest

I think you have all missed my point.

My complaint was against the way in which game prices are being driven up by businessmen with no interest other than financial.

It all crashes in the end.
I am a proponent of hunting in SA and have no problem with fences high or low.
Anyone who says game is tame behind a fence has never hunted what I call a typical ranch in SA.

17 April 2012, 20:55

boltshooter

quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
This thread scared me. I thought it was about my ex wife! What a relief!

LARRYSHORES, thanks for a great laugh.

Approximate conversion of 20 million Rand = 2.56 million USD = 1.95 million EURO

17 April 2012, 21:14

Blacktailer

quote:
Now he is the proud owner of the biggest buffalo cow in captivity anywhere in the world, and her calf.

Any pics of this "Supermodel"?

17 April 2012, 21:46

ddrhook

south african has some really great farms and even greater people. Luan is one of the best keeep up the good work buddy. SHABALALA rules!!!!!

17 April 2012, 21:59

BaxterB

quote:
My complaint was against the way in which game prices are being driven up by businessmen with no interest other than financial.

It all crashes in the end

Yes it does. We call it "Boom and Bust" here in the US. Sea Otter, Beaver, Gold, Silver, Lead, Gems, other minerals and mining, Lumber, Stocks, .com, mortgages, housing and recently, believe it or not, saddle hackle for the fashion folks. Yes, everyday regular saddle hackle sold for upwards of 900 bucks a back last year, that has also busted. There are not many industries that can withstand a purely financial run.

17 April 2012, 22:47

Crazyhorseconsulting

Pyamid schemes, pure and simple. Happened in the U.S. with ostritch and emu also Boer goats and a multitude of other commodities.

The folks that got in on the ground floor made money, the tail enders lost money.

18 April 2012, 00:00

BaxterB

quote:
ostritch and emu

Yep...I remember a newly hatched racing company in Va that did ostriches. Don't forget the sweet, soft animal that also suffered this fate..the alpaca...

18 April 2012, 02:15

JTEX

I have to agree with Ann on this, the South African ranchers are doing a great job for the most part.

Is the market too high, yes, will it come down? Yes. When it reaches saturation. I don't believe this relates to our Ostrich/Emu pyramid scheme at all........they where going to be the "meat of the future". These Buff are going to hunting ranches. The problem I see is waiting 10 or 12 years for a good mature trophy, that's a hell'uva time investment.

.

18 April 2012, 02:39

Kathi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWILpdePvtQ

Link to the auction of the Senatla bull.

18 April 2012, 03:27

Crazyhorseconsulting

JTEX, I hope you are right with your assessment of the situation, but somehow when people are offering hunting for cow buffalo at $2900.00, something seems amiss.

18 April 2012, 03:36

Blacktailer

I can see that kind of money for a bull. With AI you could spread his genes into a whole herd in 1 year. A cow is a once a year proposition, doesn't sound like such a good investment.

18 April 2012, 06:00

Virginia Creeper

To put this into Dollar terms...
1 ZAR = 0.128019 USD says the web as of tonight.
Thus 20 Million ZAR = $2,560,200 USD
Sincerely,

18 April 2012, 09:18

fujotupu

Knock off a decimal point and it might be more
realistic figure at $ 256,000.- (1USD = 7.958 ZAR)

18 April 2012, 12:23

Fritz Rabe

quote:
Originally posted by fujotupu:
Knock off a decimal point and it might be more
realistic figure at $ 256,000.- (1USD = 7.958 ZAR)

Sorry fujotupo but Virginia C was correct. It is $2,560,200.

18 April 2012, 15:11

Matt Graham

Do they do embryo transfer on a Cape Buffalo??

18 April 2012, 15:36

ChrisTroskie

quote:
Originally posted by luan:
...congrats to my family selling the cow...

Luanp

I guess congrats to my family will be in order too...

18 April 2012, 18:04

470drshooter

quote:
Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
Fritz,

I wonder if that is the same drug as Haldol? Interesting if it is!

I've never run across 'tame' wildlife while hunting in RSA. If it wasn't for the game ranches there wouldn't be much hunting for the average wage earner to be had on the African Continent at all.

It's my understanding these buffalo are more than likely free of disease which has been a hard fought victory for the RSA ranchers. Thus the high cost of stocking properties with buffs...

Even better, these ranches have far and above prevented extinction of the wonderful variety of hoof stock to be found over there.

The Doctors in the 70's and 80's would inject Haldol into PCP drug overdoses to calm them down.

18 April 2012, 18:37

fujotupu

quote:
Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
quote:
Originally posted by fujotupu:
Knock off a decimal point and it might be more
realistic figure at $ 256,000.- (1USD = 7.958 ZAR)

Sorry fujotupo but Virginia C was correct. It is $2,560,200.

I never said she wasn't - a realistic figure even though on the expensive side would be 250,000$ but 2m$ seems rather far fetched for a cow buffalo - don't you agree?

18 April 2012, 18:41

Fritz Rabe

Sorry about that. Then I misunderstood you.

18 April 2012, 19:10

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Blacktailer:
I can see that kind of money for a bull. With AI you could spread his genes into a whole herd in 1 year. A cow is a once a year proposition, doesn't sound like such a good investment.

Blacktailer, if the cow is disease free and of good stock, the calves she has every year will not all be females! At least 30% of her calves will be male and if they have a quality bull as well in seven to ten years the quality offspring will be spreading quality blood line in the herd, and the song goes on!

Good herds are not built over night, just ask any cattle rancher how long it takes to build a blood line that sells for premium prices for breeding stock.

............................................................................................................................................

18 April 2012, 20:48

Fritz Rabe

It does not help to put a 50" bull with a cow that has bad genes. The bull contributes only 50% of the genes. A good bull with a good cow guaranties good offspring and the calves can be sold at a premium price while still young and you do not need to wait for them to grow older before you can see their potential.

18 April 2012, 21:48

Todd Williams

At $2.5M, someone got "sold the cow" alright!

And for the folks saying that SA will be the ONLY place where hunting is allowed in a few years, well I wouldn't buy that "cow" either!

18 April 2012, 23:58

Scriptus

Jes too much bull for me.

19 April 2012, 01:02

Blacktailer

quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
quote:
Originally posted by Blacktailer:
I can see that kind of money for a bull. With AI you could spread his genes into a whole herd in 1 year. A cow is a once a year proposition, doesn't sound like such a good investment.

Blacktailer, if the cow is disease free and of good stock, the calves she has every year will not all be females! At least 30% of her calves will be male and if they have a quality bull as well in seven to ten years the quality offspring will be spreading quality blood line in the herd, and the song goes on!

Good herds are not built over night, just ask any cattle rancher how long it takes to build a blood line that sells for premium prices for breeding stock.

............................................................................................................................................

Right Mac, I was in the cattle business for 40 years. Just saying it's a lot easier to spread the bull than spread the cow