I have been stewing in my juices for some months and finally decided to get some feedback from hunters who have been to Africa multiple times. If you'll allow, I'm not going to name names but just discuss the relevant parts of my trip to find out how much of this is normal or should I just put a lot more energy into selecting the outfitter next time.

I made my first trip to Africa this year to hunt plains game. There were three hunters, two first timers, and we selected an outfitter based on three basic criteria: he appeared to have representative animals that we were seeking, the price was right (non hunters went for free if you hunted at least 10 days) and my partner was intrigued by the size of his eland, which was prominently displayed at his show booth. We thought he was honest and eager to please and we talked candidly about getting eland in the 38-39" range, which sounded good to us along with at least 50" kudu, just to name a few species.

We were assured that there would be one PH per hunter and if one of the normal PHs wasn't available, it was easy to hire a stepin who knew the property. I specifically asked for information on other charges but was told there was none. I understood that I had to handle the dip and pack and shipping charges. That is not an issue although that got messed up as well.

We took our wives and the lodging was adequate but far from the 5 star status that some of the references quoted, but truly, that was relatively minor. We found Africa truly captivating for a number of reasons: diversity of wild life, beautiful stars and sunsets, relaxed atmosphere, good food, wives were treated very well. In 10 days of hunting, we killed 13 animals and could have killed more and were led to believe based on measurements given to us that the animals were representative and exceeded SCI minimums although we did not witness measurements as initially there was difficulty in locating the tape. (Yes, I know.) The two first timers are not tape watchers and we just wanted trophies we could be proud of but neither of us like being told one thing and experiencing another. All in all, we had a very good time except for four areas of concern.

One, 25% of the time, there were only 2 PHs which jammed us up near the end as we tried to achieve our wish list. When questioned about it, the outfitter blew up and said he had never promised a 1x1. It is true that we never had this in writing but I know what I was told as late as day one on the way up from Windhoek. Two, there were very large eland on the property but when we hunted them for the first time, we were told that a decision had been made to not shoot the largest ones to build up the herd properly. None of us had a problem with that had we been told that before we booked, but there is a world of difference between a 34" and a 38-40" eland. We also couldn't help but think that since we were locked into a lower price list (having signed up in 2008) than the 2009 prices, which had escalated significantly, that there was a strong disincentive for him to allow us to shoot anything big. The opportunity to shoot large eland was a major marketing point at two shows as well. Three, we didn't know that we had to travel 100 km away to shoot our kudu and each person had to make at least two trips up there to locate mature bulls. (The drought had severely damaged the kudu population on his property.) On the night for final payment, we were told that since these were offsite, the charge would be 80 cents per km for each time we traveled there. I was very pissed about this. Lastly, when our trophies hit the States, the kudu horns were 2 1/2" shorter, the eland was 2" shorter (a 34" was now a 32") and all other trophies were about 1" shorter. I expected shrinkage, but not nearly this much.

OK, I know what many of you will say and I am prepared to live and learn. I was also told by an old buddy of many African trips that there are always extra costs to be paid. I guess what I didn't expect was what I consider some outright deception. I've always held that tell me what the rules are up front, I'll decide whether I want to play and if I do, then I'm subject to those terms. This hasn't turned me off at all to Africa but has taught me to ask a lot more questions, get more in writing, and rigorously check references. Even though I tried to do so, it also disappointing that either we got treated differently, or people just flat lied about the situation there.

Feedback?

Hey there. Where in Alaska are you? Just curious.

The thought I had while reading your post was that I was glad I used a booking agent who I know and trust. My agent had previously hunted with the safari company he sold me on, had other fairly extensive african experience, and I knew and had access to him for opinions and advise 12 months of the year rather than just for the show season.

I'm thinking your experience could well be fairly typical for a bought at a show safari. The outfit looks good behind the booth, and in your case as you say in many ways it was good. However, not all the details were known at the show or via e-mail or over the telephone so what you experienced on the ground differed to a degree from what you expected.

I guess I think if you can't book a trip based on the advise of a trusted confidant then it is a bit of a shot in the dark and you just go along for the story and adventure.

I'd say live and learn but would definately be pissed off about the travel costs for Kudu and the 2x1 guiding in particular. As you said "put a lot more energy into selecting the outfitter next time." probably says it all.
This is from a 1 time African hunter, not multiple times.

Cheers,
Mark.

Very sorry to hear you had a bad experience but glad to read you enjoyed most of your trip and didn't let the problems get you down.

Having a comprehensive safari contract that details all aspects of your trip is vitally important and by not having one, you could have had a lot more trouble than you did, so in some ways, you got away relatively lightly.

Just some of the problems you could have encountered by not having a contract are no cancellation policy, you could have found yourself sharing a camp with umpteen other hunters, any additional charge the outfitter cared to dream up and/or switched areas or camps.

These pages and the links on them, might help for next time.

http://www.shakariconnection.c...can-hunt-safari.html

http://www.shakariconnection.com/hunt-booking.html

My suggestion with all of three trips under my belt,(so I'm far from an expert), is to always get references. I got a reference on my first hunt and all things considered, I had a ball.

I have used a booking agent on the other two trips and that's not a bad idea. The hunting industry is like all others. Sometimes, you don't get what you pay for.

Honestly, compared to some MAJOR horror stories posted on this site, your experience was not SO bad. That said, the unexpected extra charges (not major) and the occasional 2x1 hunting would have probably cut into the PHs tips if I were the client. Now, what's important is to use what you have learned from this experience when you book a higher dollar hunt. What you have told us is a good reason for people to book lower dollar PG hunts before moving on to the really expensive stuff in Africa or elsewhere.

Your experience is more typical than not. However, that doesn't make it OK. I strongly encourage you to file a complaint with the government in the country you hunted, generally the enforcement comes under a Bureau of Tourism. Call the country's Consulante at its location in the United States and they will tell you how to file a grievance. File a hunt report with SCI and here on AR naming the PH. If you are a member of the NRA file a complaint with it also naming the PH.

Please make another post and name the PH and hunting area. Thank you for being brave enough to let us know. Most people get cheated and are afraid to talk about it. This is an expensive and serious deception. You are doing the right thing by shinning the light on this PH.

File a negative hunting report with The Hunting Report newsletter. Use one of the booking agents who post here and you will get an honest assessment of what you are buying. I can deal with things I can't change like rabies killing all the Kudu, but I hate deception. Most importantly, go back to Africa, it is too much fun to let the first trip keep you from returning.

Just commenting on the eland;a photo would be helpful in that as eland age they lose horn length.A nice mop of hair on the forehead is the sign of a mature animal.So shorter horns might signify a better true trophy.Inches don't always tell that story.Most will not let you shoot a big bull out of a herd of females,as the other bulls will fight to take over the harem.

Were the animals scored by the NAPHA system?They are supposed to be if the outfitter is a member.

The transfer charge is BS,I would be miffed to.But it is true,local drought,
but more important rabies,has had significant effect on numbers in some areas.

Hope the good memories are what you hold onto...

I think we are all jumping to conclusions here, without knowing the price the hunters paid, we cannot really make a meaningful comment.

3 hunters, hunting for 10 days, with 2 PHs, and observer are going without any charge.

That sounds like a highly discounted hunt. And appart from the surcharge for the trip, I really cannot see much one could complain about.

So please give us all the details, after which members can form their own opinions.

I don't really see that price is an issue here, rather that the Outfitter "over egged" the hunt to make a sale..

Shakari's advise hits the nail on the head in that it pays to get everything in writing and take a copy over with you...

Personally, if I had booked a hunt on a 1x1 basis and had to hunt 2x1 for an amount of time for no good reason, I would be a little peeved, and more so if I found that the availabiliy of the trophies I really wanted to hunt had been artificially curtailed by "new rules" I hadn't been informed of in advance.

Only africa1sttimer knows how much these things impacted on the enjoyment of his trip and only he can say if it warrents taking things further...

First of all, why not post names so we could avoid said purveyor of safaris?

1. You should never book with someone only based on what they tell you. You should ALWAYS do research and get references.

2. As far as I'm concerned, the price paid has nothing to do with the issue and what was promised has everything to do with it.

3. Advertising big animals and then, when the hunters arrive telling them they can't be shot, is false advertising. Similarly, a PH telling a hunter that an animal is "a very good one" and will easily make Roland Ward or the SCI record book and then having the animal fail to make those standards, is also false advertising.

4. If the safari purveyor has sold a hunt for a certain price that includes kudu hunting, there should be no transportation surcharge.

I've been to Africa with 3 different safari operators. One was advertised as being a 2 on 1 hunt but the operator made it a 1 on 1 hunt instead at no extra charge. One was as advertised with no complaints. On another, there were several animals that allegedly were "very good ones" that would make SCI and Roland Ward record books with no problem that were actually quite average and didn't make any record book.

By the way, how much did you tip? The last operator mentioned above got no tip from me. I figured that with the time of mine he wasted (that's another story), that he had used up his tip.

Use a booking agent next time and check references. Also check with this forum for info. Go back to Africa and enjoy. Sad to say but you are probably not going to get much satisfaction and more aggravation going after the outfitter. Sounds like he jerked you around but usually these things come down to a pissing contest and nobody benefits much if at all. As Shakari said, get it in writing, without that all you have is misunderstandings and opinions. Sounds like you made the best of it anyway. Good for you!

I think we'd all appreciate knowing who the outfitter was. Second, I think the kilometer charge would have been directly deducted from the tips. Unfortunately that would hurt the PH, not the ranch owner, but that's tough.

The derth of big kudu is not unusual in Namibia in the last few years. It depends to a a large extent on where you are, but the rabies has hit them pretty hard in many areas. At least you were given the chance to hunt them, even if off ranch.

All in all, I wouldn't have been very happy but it could have been a lot worse. Spending some time on here ahead of your booking would probably have saved you some of the anguish but that is hindsight. Better luck next time, you'll be back.

Africa1sttimer,

When I read your account of your trip the first thing that struck me was that it seemed the price might have been quite cheap. The observers free on a plains game hunt was kind of a red flag to me. Not always but you often get exactly what you pay for.

You should be upset about a 2x1 if you were promised 1x1. 2X1 is far cheaper for the operator.

I wasn't there but if I hunt a property I expect to be able to take the best trophies I come across. A mature eland bull of 38"-39" is a monster and if the operator told you that was a realistic expectation he may have been pulling your leg a little.

The operator obviously knew the kudu would have to be hunted on another property. There was no reason for him to not tell you that and about the additinal cost before the hunt.

I recommend that people take a tape. Once you have measured the trophies yourself there is no room for over ambitious estimates or disappointment upon receiving the trophies. Hunters will say that they don't hunt for the book, inches don't matter etc. The problem with that is it gives carte blanche to an unscrupuloue operator to have a client
just shoot anything. Part of the safari research should be finding out what makes a good representative trophy in that area.

A first timer buying a safari at the show without doing previous research is like buying a pig in a poke. I don't recommend it.

Do get a contract laying out the basics of what is the operator's responsibility and the client's as well as covering all the costs.

A safari is seldom perfect in every respect because there are so many variables involved in the whole process but it appears you have some legitimate gripes and the operator seems to have over sold the expereince.

Mark

quote:

When questioned about it, the outfitter blew up...

This to me is the worst part of your post. Assuming you did not ask in a confrontational manner (and/or under the influence around the dinner table!), there was no reason for him to "blow up". This shows a serious lack of professionalism and respect for you, his paying customer (guest).
As has been pointed out in past hunts-gone-bad, the hunter is essentially a guest of the outfitter in what they perceive to be a foreign and dangerous land. They often feel that if they speak up or offend, they will be "left for dead" so to speak. How many times have we heard "Well you should have said something right away and then I would have...". If what you say is factual, you did just that, and not only did it do you no good but his response set the stage for continued mistrust and doubt.

Sometimes first time hunters can be a little bit too sensitive or have expectations that exceed possibility, its easy to do, I did it to some extent my first time. I’d try to shrug the rest of it off and not let it taint your memory, but as was said, learn from it and do some homework next time. If you hang around this forum, some quality operators will be mentioned time and time again. And remember if a guy wheels-and-deals on the front end…he might do so on the back end too.

Spell everything out in the contract, take a copy with you, and expect (and roll with) the unexpected.

Costs should not change from the contract unless the contract permits it (government fees, for example).

When you book with us, you get a detailed booking confirmation that lists ALL charges, the species desired, the location and style of the hunt, the transfer arrangements, and the dates. The operator gets a copy. You take this with you and if there is any dispute with the operator, you lay it on the table and say "which paragraph are you on, Joe?", with a smile on your face.

And you don't pay a premium when booking through an agent. The outfitter and the agent have an agreement that both work off the same price list. Sometimes, you will find an operator who will offer you a discount because there is "no agent involved". This is often a sign of a corner-cutter. In that case, get a contract, but still I don't know any hunter that has ever sued successfully based on a contract. And contracts inevitably favor the operator with all kinds of boilerplate about hunting being a game of chance etc etc. Your practical recourse is to withhold tips, and in a very egregious case, to withhold payment at the end of the hunt, paying only what you think is fair.

If the outfitter is shorting you in some fashion, you should bring it up immediately. If he fails to remedy the shortage, then don't tip the PH (which in the RSA is usually the same gent as the outfitter). You should tip the staff unless the problem is related to them.

Some clients are reluctant to get hard-assed because they fear being "held hostage". This is nonsense, no licenced PH would ever do this, as it would be the end of the road for him. It is a crime in every country to hold a person against his will. And in any case, you can just smile and say "Fine, I will take my breakfast at 9 am each day and my cocktails at 5".

There is a risk that you won't receive your trophies if there is a major money discrepancy. To preclude this, you should say "I feel that you have shorted me on this hunt. I am deducting $x from the payment to reflect this, and here is my reasoning. Furthermore, I am going to hold $1000 back until my trophies are delivered". That takes care of that.

One final point. It's too common for hunters to be sold "Tarmac Hunts", where you go to property A for species A, property B for species B and so on. Nobody wants to spend their hunt commuting. It's OK to relocate ONCE for a special species, as long as you have agreed to this up front. And if you transfer camp to a second area, you should be charged a reduced rate for a "transfer day".

Having said all of this, if you buy the very cheapest hunt you can find, expect to find corners cut.

Transportation cost should have been absorbed by the outfitter or disclosed to the hunters and the cost agreed to prior to making the day trips for kudu.

Three PHs should have been there all the time if a 3x3 hunt was the deal.

However, at the end of the day, it sounds like a good time was had by all. I'd not dwell on the negative, but remember the good times afield with family and friends. You learned a good lesson about researching your outfitter, checking references, and getting things in writing. Not many hunts are perfect, and there will be some bumps along the way. Focus on the big picture and do not sweat the small stuff. Most of all, go back.

These are all very valuable comments to help me put this in perspective. To answer a few questions, the two hunters that took 5 animals apiece and we each had one non hunter with us paid $9500 each to the outfitter. I don't consider this cheap for a plains game hunt but you tell me. Second, we tipped the PHs reasonably well because none of us had a problem with them; the issue was with the owner and part time (he's the one who didn't hunt 25% of the time) PH. He didn't receive much of anything and it was his direction that his PHs needed to follow on harvesting eland because we were told he had threatened to fire them if one of his prize trophy eland was shot. As far as the comment on the blowup, I completely agree with the statement that this was as bad as anything on the hunt and it was a ploy to get me to roll over. I will live and learn, probably use a booking agent but return to Africa again in the future.

That is not at all a cheap hunt sounds like you paid top dollar.

Can you break down the daily rate and the trophy charges per animal taken?

In 15 trips, I have never been charged mileage. However, it does seem minor.

Observers for free is unusual.

This isn't so bad compared to many disasters we hear about.

Get everything in writing, ALWAYS.

You did the right thing by not naming the outfitter until you are sure your group did not get the hunt they paid for. It's impossible to make any judgments or speculate with out seeing your contract. What does your hunt contract say? Did you pay for 1x1 hunts or 1 x 2 hunts?

Hunting with friends can be a lot of fun, But having 6 people with different personalties together 24-7 can make minor problems seem worse then they are.

Please post a copy of the the contract.

I think you paid a upper end amount for your hunt. I have found that the best way to avoid "surprises" is to book with a quality agent representative here in the states. We have some good ones here on AR. Many hunters handle there own booking direct and often the outfitter will offer a portion of the agents commission as an incentive. As soon as an outfitter makes that kind of offer to me, I run the other way. If he is willing to screw the agent, guess what he will do to you. I think it is the hunter's responsibility to investigate what is a reasonable trophy to expect. If I was offered a 39 inch eland, I would not talk further to that outfitter. He is either lying or has one in a pen somewhere. Travel charges are a sticky area. If you transfer camps, there is often a charge. I have never been charged for hunting a different property and returnig to the base camp. I repeat my suggestion to use a US agent to help you learn the ropes.

It sounds like some things went right and some did not.

While agreeing with parts of the posters comments above it still concerns me that one hears more and more about written contracts with terms on "wish?" (or will it soon be "guarantee") lists down to the very inch of horn.

That sounds more like a business deal than a hunt.

There wasn't a contract per se. There was a single piece of paper with the time selected and reference to the price list for 2008. (I know, my bad. Live and learn the hard way.) For every day we hunted, it was 390 per day per hunter which included a non-hunter. Arrival and departure days and a day at Etosha was charged at 100 per day apiece. Kudu was 900, gemsbuck was 700, zebra was 900, warthog was 400, etc which are all quite common rates for what I typically see advertised and I did cross reference prices with other Namibian outfitters. The trips for kudu were charged at 192 per trip per hunter. In his price list, he states that hunting offsite incurs a charge per km. When I booked, the assumption was that I would hunt kudu at his place. Due to the drought, that did not turn out to be the case and of course, we were never told until it was time to pay.

If you go to either the Dallas SCI or Reno SCI shows, he is not hard to spot. He has a monstrous eland shoulder mount at his exhibit which he claims is the new pending world record. Interestingly, this mount is a complete fake but is supposed to be a faithful reproduction of one shot on his property by an old friend who didn't know what he had and simply put the horns up on the outside of his house in Germany.

All in all, I learned a lot and will never give him any business again. We had many good days on his property but there is no upside to returning. I am going to chalk it up to experience and remember the good parts. This blog has helped me with very useful info and has let me get this off my chest.

quote:

In his price list, he states that hunting offsite incurs a charge per km. When I booked, the assumption was that I would hunt kudu at his place

And you where mad because he charged you?

Weelll...as others have stated, you didn't get screwed too badly apart from 3rd PH and being told you could not shoot the big daddy herd bull eland, It sounds like the 3rd PH/owner shorted you a couple of days (but it also sounds like hunter no 3 didn't hunt as much as the first two), so that's not worth a fight.

$390 per day for a 1x1+observer is about as cheap a deal as you are going to find, anywhere. The trophy fees are typical for Namibia as well.

If your agreement referenced the price list, and if the price list referenced a mileage charge for offsite hunting, then the outfitter was within his rights to charge that amount. 80c per km is about $1.25 per mile though, and that ain't cheap. However, the price list is the price list.

I was pissed because nothing was ever said or was the fine print even mentioned. As I've said before, my bad.

Thanks for all your suggestions Let's close out this topic.

Well, at $.80/km, you got off cheap. The week before my hunt, I found out that the sightseeing trips arranged for my wife and kids were going to cost $2.50/km. Granted, at the time, gas was peaking at $1.35/litre, but

As well, I found out during the hunt that the impala quota had been reached, and there were none available.

Can someone please give us a general price for a 10 day PG hunt that is prevalent today?

Ie - daily rate for both hunter and daily rate for observers?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Can someone please give us a general price for a 10 day PG hunt that is prevalent today?

Ie - daily rate for both hunter and daily rate for observers?

A lot of hunts are sold as package deals that include animals and daily rates. In regards to RSA, and probably to Namibia as well, it's not too hard to find such a hunt in $5,000 to $6,000 range that includes several trophies. Other countries such as Tanzania are quite a bit more expensive.

Typical on such a hunt would be to have included an impala, springbok, blesbok and some type of wildebeest. Though these animals seem very unique to the North American hunter, they breed like rabbits and are culled by the thousands every year.

If hunters didn't hunt them, they would be culled and sold for meat. When hunters hunt them, the safari purveyor collects for the daily rates, the trophy fees and still sells the meat. Then of course there is the taxidermy revenue, etc.

Sorry for the bad taste in your mouth. It has all been said in the above posts but Good Agent-Written Contract with the understandings spelled out- and REFERENCES are three MUSTS as you book in the future. The good news is that all of us have been there in some form or fashion. Don't let it turn you off safari, but I know you won't.
Best Of Luck
Dave

While you might have a reason to be a little upset I hope you dont let tapes and a few of the other things ruin your memories of africa. I know in my several trips over there there have always been things that havent been as an american might expect but it is africa. Roll with the punches go back and enjoy it while you can.

Saeed:
I have paid daily rates anywhere between $285USD and $450USD over the course of several PG hunts since 2000, in RSA, Zimbabwe and Namibia. I have not taken an observer, but observer rates were generally in the $100USD to $150USD range. A quick look at a random selection of outfitters in Namibia and RSA shows me an average daily of +/- $450USD. One can go much higher. The lowest I've see lately is in the $250USD range. Hope this helps.

My first trip was to RSA. Boy was I disappointed. Lazy PH who did not want to walk and small, misrepresented properties. And, btw, I used a very well known agent of the day. I took it all in as a learning experiecne and went forward with my own research on future trips. Doing my own research is, for me, part of the fun.

The day rates of the outfitters we work with range from $200 (Zululand self-catered fenced) to $450 per day (Zim PG in a DG concession).

Since this was Namibia, we would have to go with a typical rate of $325-350 1x1. Plus $100-150 observer. So $425-500 is the market rate in that country for a hunter plus observer. You paid $390, so you got a good rate, at least as far as the quoted daily rates are concerned. The fact that there were 3 couples probably worked to your advantage there. (There are some outfitters in Nam that are hunting as low as $250 per day 1x1, but I have to believe these are informal "farmer special" hunts.)

There is a difference between the PH driving you to a satellite property (you are already paying for the PH's time and for his vehicle, so any surcharge if any should be for fuel/tires only); and taking a chauffeured sight-seeing trip, where (presumably) you are not paying a full daily rate on top of the /km charge.