If the PH pointed out a Lion that was a shooter but lacked mane for any other reason than age, would you shoot it? If not why not?

Note two of most notorious Lions in history, the Tsavo man eaters had poor manes but they were brutes. This was probably one of the finest hunts for Lion that I have ever read.

Just a thought?

It would probably depend on a number of factors:

1) What day of the hunt? It's easier to pass on something like that on the first day than on the last.

2) Have I taken I lion before? If someone has already taken an equal or better trophy, they may be less likely to shoot the one in front of them that's not the "best" lion around.

3) Is the area known for good manes? In Burkina Faso or Benin, I don't think you'd expect much of a mane, so the above two factors might not even matter.

As you know, I've never shot a lion and may never do so. And I would be thrilled with any lion of proper age. Manes are nice, but the mane is only a small part of what makes a lion a lion (see your example re Tsavo). Still, if I were hunting lions in the Lunga Luswishi or Rungwa or the like, I would apply the first numbered factor above.

If I was in a large area with many more mature lions I may let him walk to look a few over. I may go home empty handed but it would not be the first time. If lions were sparsley populated in this area, or maybe this is a specific animal thay have been trying to kill I may go ahead and dust him. The first lion I killed I had hunted him specificaly one year and failed. Came back the next year and killed him on the fifteenth day. Out of all those days I saw him once for maybe two seconds and a second time for about three seconds but that was only one leg and his tail. The next time I saw him was for 1 second at he was running. I gunned him down. He had very little mane, but was an ancient giant. He still stands as one of the greatest trophies in my life.

Andrew,

A maneless lion could definitely offer the same hunt as a big wig but I probably would not shoot it. To me it's the same as hunting ele. An old broken tusk bull might only sport 25# of ivory. I'd pass on him and look for bigger ivory eventhough the old broken tusker had offered a good hunt. Yeah! I hunt for the hunt but I usually have specific goals when I go in the field and a bald lion is not one of them.

Mark

Fair Game......
An old lion is old lion, we also loose hair as we go.I have an Airstrip growing on my head.
The PH has to make a decision if the simba is mzee or just a rookie hanginf around with his nyewele hanging around.....

An older trophy has its own enigma....

Enclosed is a picture of an old Lion that I took in the Zambezi quite a few years ago. It was the largest bodied Lion that I have taken but had not much mane and quite scruffy. The client asked if he was old and he shot it as I was confirming his question. We had hunted it for two weeks on foot and over bait. I came across spoor of another male in the area but the two kept apart.



Your taxidermist can add a mane or more hair if need be. Would you consider that?

quote:

If the PH pointed out a Lion that was a shooter but lacked mane for any other reason than age, would you shoot it?

absolutely.

quote:

Your taxidermist can add a mane or more hair if need be. Would you consider that?

absolutely not, this would be the same as adding tines on your trophy whitetail, he is what he is. To alter him afterwards would suggest shame or envy, IMHO.
p.s.
that is a brute of a lion.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

If the PH pointed out a Lion that was a shooter but lacked mane for any other reason than age, would you shoot it?

absolutely.

quote:

Your taxidermist can add a mane or more hair if need be. Would you consider that?

absolutely not, this would be the same as adding tines on your trophy whitetail, he is what he is. To alter him afterwards would suggest shame or envy, IMHO.
p.s.
that is a brute of a lion.

Good attitude.

The Lion was shot in the center of the neck as that was all we could see as the body was obscured by brush. We were close but if the Lion had more mane I would have not called the shot. It was one call I got away with and the result was spectacular.

I took some very serious flack for shooting this Lion and will tell you about it over a cold beer in a few weeks time.

Cheers

Andrew

Yes absolutly! I don't want a pretty lion I want a old fighter ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Your taxidermist can add a mane or more hair if need be. Would you consider that?

Hell no!!

When I have the Bushbuck mounted I want Jerry Huffaker to put the bark back on the horns from the thing ramming the tree right before charging my wife.

As far as Manes, it's not the only factor in my opinion.

25 years ago most of the male lion in the deseart areas of Botswana produced nothing but lions that looked like the one posted in the picture in this thread. Ronnie Blackbeard told me that unfortunently that is the lion we are now breading here, but they are big lion.

Also in the Luangwa several years ago we saw several seemingly old lion with scruffy manes, but were very large lion. One man-killer taken in a village close to our camp was completely maneless and was thought to be a lioness, till he was shot after killing a few of the locals.

For me if he was old enough and the hunt was memorable, I'd take him, though I rather have an MGM old boy.

However one thing I will never take onless I have no choice or die, is a damn scrumm cap buffalo!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
However one thing I will never take onless I have no choice or die, is a damn scrumm cap buffalo!

Now that I have one with decent bosses and hooks I would kill a scrum.

That's a neat old lion, Andrew.

Unless there has been bad hair slippage after the kill, adding hair extensions to a lion suggests that what other people think is more important than the hunter's own experience -- sort of like photoshopping larger breasts onto pictures of one's deceased wife. Also, wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to just shoot one of those cartoon lions from RSA?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
If the PH pointed out a Lion that was a shooter but lacked mane for any other reason than age, would you shoot it?

Hell yes! Which is why I'm looking into tracking hunts in Western Africa. Perhaps spring of 2013 or 2014! We'll see!

Brett

Remember the Patterson lions,no manes but real killers and big.

quote:

sort of like photoshopping larger breasts onto pictures of one's deceased wife.

I'll likely never hunt lion but like all animals I like character. If I ever hit the lottery and did hunt lion I would want and old crotchety bastard with scars, one ear chewed in half and maybe a lost tooth or a limp, to hell with the MGM lions, everyone will accuse you of shooting a canned lion... ;-)

505, I thought about saying "ex-girlfriend" instead of "deceased wife," but I wanted the comparision to include the factor of insecurity-based disrespect for something that should clearly be respected. If a person has to resort to fake mane hair to turn a lion into something they're proud of, then they have no business putting a bullet into it.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
I'll likely never hunt lion but like all animals I like character. If I ever hit the lottery and did hunt lion I would want and old crotchety bastard with scars, one ear chewed in half and maybe a lost tooth or a limp, to hell with the MGM lions, everyone will accuse you of shooting a canned lion... ;-)

Andrew McLaren

Some taxidermists specialize in this so there is a market. Many go to Africa expecting to shoot a black hairy mane Lion and once they settle down to reality and take what is on offer then they make want to tweak their trophy to look like the Lion of their dreams. Nothing wrong with that.

Note many buffalo that are taken are a little soft and this is sometimes extremely difficult to judge in the field. It is standard for a taxidermist to build up the bosses.

What I am getting at is that we are under pressure to shoot older Lions and I have turned down many that lack mane and on reflection these Lions would have been good ones to take.

Interesting that Mac would not shoot a scrum cap buffalo? I would in a heart beat and for me these old cantankerous bulls offer some of the best hunting on the planet. I probably would not keep the trophy but simply settle for the memories.

I hear that Baboon hair works wonders.

Depends on what day of the hunt honestly. If I'm spend the amount of $$$$ to hunt lion and in the end days have an opportunity to shoot one of good size and no mane. If its legal, I'm shooting it, providing my PH says its a shooter. If its old and maneless -- preferable.

I will probably at best have 1 try at a lion, so any legal lion would be a trophy no matter what some 'experts' say.

To Andrew's question, YES. The one lion I've shot, which I described in that long lion thread, provided a fantastic and adrenalin charged hunt. But so did all of the other lions we encountered over 2 safaris and 37 days afield before I finally pulled the trigger. He doesn't have much mane, and he's on the young side, but back in 1989 I didn't know this was much of an issue and at the point I encountered him. It was one of the best hunts I've ever had. Big or small mane, the adventure was very large, and that's what I remember when I look at that lion in my room. In this day and age, I would not shoot a young lion, but an older one with mane like in your picture would be in trouble, especially if the hunt for him was a good one.

To Mark's comment on elephant tusks, I shot a bull with broken tusks that also provided a nice hunt and great memories. Peter Johnstone had a non-trophy bull permit that a previous hunter had not filled, and he offered it to me. We only had a short time to hunt and I couldn't/wouldn't turn that generous offer down, so off we went looking for a young bull to shoot. As it turned out, we found an older bull who'd broken off one tusk right at the lip, and the other had about 6" of ivory showing. His ivory was almost 15" at the lip, so not a young bull at all. We had a short but intense hunt, with a staredown at about 20 yards where I couldn't shoot because of a mopane tree located right between his eyes, so I had to wait while he decided what to do with us. As the bull turned to flee, I brained him. I'll never forget that moment as long as I live. Would I rather have another set of long, intact tusks? Sure, I would. This hunt only gave me a pair that are short and stubby, but the memories of that hunt are very rich, indeed. I wasn't hunting a pair of tusks, I was hunting an elephant.

That's my .02 worth.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
they make want to tweak their trophy to look like the Lion of their dreams. Nothing wrong with that .

That surprises me. I thought you were more about the experience and not the show and tell.

I don't really have any desire to hunt lion, but if I did, I would be delighted with fairgame's lion. It has character.
Similarly, I would shoot a scrum cap buffalo, although I also wouldn't bother with a mount, just pictures.
Elephant, don't know. Tusks are kind of neat.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
Depends on what day of the hunt honestly. If I'm spend the amount of $$$$ to hunt lion and in the end days have an opportunity to shoot one of good size and no mane. If its legal, I'm shooting it, providing my PH says its a shooter. If its old and maneless -- preferable.

I will probably at best have 1 try at a lion, so any legal lion would be a trophy no matter what some 'experts' say.

Just be careful if you want to post a hunt report, trust me.

quote:

Originally posted by wrldhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
Depends on what day of the hunt honestly. If I'm spend the amount of $$$$ to hunt lion and in the end days have an opportunity to shoot one of good size and no mane. If its legal, I'm shooting it, providing my PH says its a shooter. If its old and maneless -- preferable.

I will probably at best have 1 try at a lion, so any legal lion would be a trophy no matter what some 'experts' say.

Just be careful if you want to post a hunt report, trust me.

Nice to see you posting.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
they make want to tweak their trophy to look like the Lion of their dreams. Nothing wrong with that .

That surprises me. I thought you were more about the experience and not the show and tell.

What I mean Jim is the lion now belongs to the hunter and what he does with it is not really my business.

The hunting of this beast is one of our greatest sports. You will find out, and to have an apex predator inches from your face whether he is young or old will be one of your safari highlights. Remember Lion kill Buffalo for breakfast and Leopard because they can. For me a Lion hunt is the ultimate experience.

quote:

Originally posted by wrldhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
Depends on what day of the hunt honestly. If I'm spend the amount of $$$$ to hunt lion and in the end days have an opportunity to shoot one of good size and no mane. If its legal, I'm shooting it, providing my PH says its a shooter. If its old and maneless -- preferable.

I will probably at best have 1 try at a lion, so any legal lion would be a trophy no matter what some 'experts' say.

Just be careful if you want to post a hunt report, trust me.

I know you are right! I'll be happy to send you a hunt report and sit down for a few cold beers! I enjoyed your report myself!

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
I hear that Baboon hair works wonders.

For the manufacture of toupets for politicians.