A friend of mine booked a RSA hunt last year for a hunt with his wife in late June of this year. He placed a deposit directly with the PH/Outfitter to book the slot.

Sadly, he just found out that his wife has been diagnosed with Ovarian Cancer. Looks treatable as they caught it early, but no way they will be able to make the hunt in June.

He contacted the PH and explained the situation and asked for the deposit back as their medical expenses will quickly go through the roof and he may never be able to book another hunt. So he can’t take another slot next year. The PH was non-committal as to when or if he could refund the deposit because he had already started "making plans". Obviously that’s BS.

There were no special permitted animals involved and the PH has plenty of time to book another client. Unfortunately, they did not discuss refunds at the time of booking as both (until this point) have been in excellent health and did not foresee anything that would interfere with their trip. Obviously a big mistake - never assume.

My POV is it will be difficult to get 100% of the deposit returned at this point. It would be interesting to see what the “policies” are among other outfitters/booking agents/PHs.

Honestly, I don't care what the policies are of the outfitter. If the deposit is not returned I would question his humanity?

ensue the pinko commie "life isn't fair" thread, where some poor outfitter gets crucified for making good business decisions......

Name the outfitter or this thread is worthless. My thoughts are with this couple. We had two hunts booked when Joyce was diagnosed. Both outfitters offered refunds or rebooking at our choice.

Frostbit, I didn't ask who the outfitter was by name because it really didn't matter in my answer to him. Most outfitters have a written policy for refunds. If you cancel in X number of days/months you get 100% back, if you cancel within Y number of day/months you get 50% back and if you cancel within Z number of days you forfeit your deposit. The fact that this guy didn't is a big flag.

505 gibbs, not sure it's good business policy to be noncommittal about a refund request. That's what struck me as odd. All the PH had to do was say - It's my policy not to refund any money under any circumstances. Or something along the lines above. Not trying to bash anyone, only get a sampling of what others "in the industry" do or feel is fair.

Sounds like the outfitter offered to let the hunter rebook the trip for later in 2016 or 2017. I also presume that the contract says that the deposit is just that, a deposit. Beyond that not sure why the outfitter is expected to become the surrogate for trip insurance, which I presume the hunter had the ability to purchase but elected not to purchase. Certainly unfortunate and one hopes that his wife is fine but to look to blame the outfitter who did nothing wrong especially if he offered to rebook seems like a stretch to me. This is precisely why trip insurance exists.

I agree MJines. I suppose the question is - Is there any circumstance where the PH "should" refund deposits given there is plenty of time to book another client and no costs have been incurred?

Many of the guys I have hunted with do have a written refund policy. So it does happen. Just curious what the consensus is among the outfitters who post here.

Not taking any side here but the outfitter may have stopped advertising or turned down or lost clients because the particular dates were already booked.

Mike,

I agree the client should have taken out trip insurance and I recommend it for all my clients. On the other hand when something like this has come up for me as the agent I've always been able to work out something that was agreeable to everybody and that has included fully refunding the deposits made. My contract does though give myself and the outfitter full discretion on what, when and if anythign is to be refunded.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Sounds like the outfitter offered to let the hunter rebook the trip for later in 2016 or 2017. I also presume that the contract says that the deposit is just that, a deposit. Beyond that not sure why the outfitter is expected to become the surrogate for trip insurance, which I presume the hunter had the ability to purchase but elected not to purchase. Certainly unfortunate and one hopes that his wife is fine but to look to blame the outfitter who did nothing wrong especially if he offered to rebook seems like a stretch to me. This is precisely why trip insurance exists.

exactly.

In an ideal situation, the outfitter is able to book another hunter, and he can refund the deposit in full.

But, sometimes things don't work out as planned ahead of time.

How many times have we had outfitters here offering cheaper short notice hunts because the previous client was unable to go. And has forfeited his deposit so that the outfitter can actually find someone to take his place?

To the question if there were any circumstances that the outfitter should refund the "non-refundable" deposit?

I think he should if he is able to book another client for that slot.

If he is unable to, I don't think he is obliged to do so.

I had to cancel one hunt years ago, due to the fact that my daughter was due to be born during the safari time.

But, my relationship with my PH are a bit different from others.

We knew each other well enough, and I had paid no deposit - never did with him, and don't do it now either.

And as we normally book quite a substantial percentage of his quota, I told him I have no wish to see him loose any money due to my cancelation.

And if he is not able to book someone else, I will be happy to pay.

Needless to say, he did find new clients to hunt in our place, and I did not have to pay anything.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
ensue the pinko commie "life isn't fair" thread, where some poor outfitter gets crucified for making good business decisions......

Should the client have bought trip insurance? Yes. Is the outfitter still a douchenozzle for not refunding the deposit? Yes. We are talking about a PG trip here so figure half the daily rates on 10 days as the deposit right? What is that...$2500 or so? We all know the outfitter is not "choosing to" not refund the deposit. He likely CAN'T refund it because it was already spent on God knows what having little if anything to do with the hunt in question.

With an outfitter like this, since he would almost certainly not "be able" to sell the hunt for the client, the client himself really only has the option to sell the hunt himself...but I don't suspect it's very great marketing to say "My wife got cancer and this outfitter won't refund the deposit...want to hunt with him?" I know I wouldn't.

This happened a few years ago where a man had to cancel due to cancer and the outfitter's attitude was FU to both him and the AR members who came to his aid offering to pay for his next hunt. Box H offered some animals at no charge and many here were going to buy his air ticket. Life is tough and he died before anything could come of it. The outfitter in SA cussed and swore at the AR members (me included) and happily kept the man's money. HE was run off AR and won't post here anymore due to his inhumanity. He should have send the money to the man's widow. He was a heartless prick. Who was he, I forget?
Cheers,
Cal

That was a different situation Cal. The gentleman (Carolinasman, who has since passed away sadly) had terminal bladder cancer. Obviously there was no option to rebook. As I appreciate it, here the hunter has been offered the ability to rebook but does not want to do that and wants a refund. Not sure why the outfitter needs to be a trip insurance underwriter in that circumstance. But obviously opinions can differ . . .

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
He was a heartless prick. Who was he, I forget?

The aptly named Bushwhack Safaris!

quote:

This happened a few years ago where a man had to cancel due to cancer and the outfitter's attitude was FU to both him and the AR members who came to his aid offering to pay for his next hunt. Box H offered some animals at no charge and many here were going to buy his air ticket. Life is tough and he died before anything could come of it. The outfitter in SA cussed and swore at the AR members (me included) and happily kept the man's money. HE was run off AR and won't post here anymore due to his inhumanity. He should have send the money to the man's widow. He was a heartless prick. Who was he, I forget?
Cheers,
Cal

Im with Cal on this one. Cancer is the scourge of our times.
To put a family under more strain than the disease already has sits badly with me.
If the outfitter simply doesn't have the money at this point then make a plan to pay it back over time. But the fact that this has made it to a discussion board shows that there was a breakdown or a refusal somewhere.

There are many reasons for an outfitter to stick to his contract etc, but I just dont think cancer in the family qualifies.
If you have ever witnessed how this disease eats, not only the victim, but everyone in their immediate family; then you will know, this slow death is a curse beyond any other.

How much is the family out of pocket? And is there any way that we can resell this hunt on his behalf etc.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
ensue the pinko commie "life isn't fair" thread, where some poor outfitter gets crucified for making good business decisions......

Should the client have bought trip insurance? Yes. Is the outfitter still a douchenozzle for not refunding the deposit? Yes. We are talking about a PG trip here so figure half the daily rates on 10 days as the deposit right? What is that...$2500 or so? We all know the outfitter is not "choosing to" not refund the deposit. He likely CAN'T refund it because it was already spent on God knows what having little if anything to do with the hunt in question.

With an outfitter like this, since he would almost certainly not "be able" to sell the hunt for the client, the client himself really only has the option to sell the hunt himself...but I don't suspect it's very great marketing to say "My wife got cancer and this outfitter won't refund the deposit...want to hunt with him?" I know I wouldn't.

I think you are being a bit too harsh on the outfitter.

We do not know what sort of financial situation he is in - especially now that a number of hunts are either being cancelled or postponed.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
That was a different situation Cal. The gentleman (Carolinasman, who has since passed away sadly) had terminal bladder cancer. Obviously there was no option to rebook. As I appreciate it, here the hunter has been offered the ability to rebook but does not want to do that and wants a refund. Not sure why the outfitter needs to be a trip insurance underwriter in that circumstance. But obviously opinions can differ . . .

Mike:
I can't disagree with you as you're one of the best gents on AR. That said, a refund would have been the right thing to do, the compassionate thing to do. Bushwack has been run off AR. I wonder sometimes if he had made the refund immediately and sent his condolences after Carolinasman's passing, if he would be swamped with business. And, that said, I do agree people should purchase traveler's insurance (even though I never do).
Cheers, mate.
Cal

Cal I doubt that he would have been swamped with business for doing that.

Sure it would have been the right thing to do, but the outfitting industry world wide is filled with empty seats and cancellations. Things are not good and have not been for a number of years.

I consider myself lucky, because we fill our spots every year with only a couple of cancellations here and there. I know many who are struggling to fill 50 to 60 % of their hunts.

On the cancellations I usually end up taking a beating financially. I have returned deposits because of guys losing their jobs, health issues, even "oh my wife is having a baby this year and she does not want me to be away". In order to fill those spots at the last minute.............. and only having a few months to do so these days is the last minute.......... I have to offer the hunts up as cancellation hunts at a discount.

So in the end my family is out of pocket. And in the end no one else gives a shit whether I did return the deposit to the affected hunter or not. Sure as hell doesn't do my family any good other than feel good.

I guess if you hold a handful of permits for a rare beast that many of those with deep pockets want, you don't have anything to worry about..... but for the vast majority offering a product that hundreds of other operators are also offering......... well it ain't high times and most are struggling.

Being a good guy usually just leaves you feeling good and that is about it. Oh....... and you do not have to suffer the wrath of the AR jury who are quick to judge but have nothing invested.

Skyline - You paint a very accurate picture of what is going on in the industry today. Times are more difficult for both the client as well as the PH. And this situation is certainly a cautionary tail for those who hunt in Africa - always have a backup plan and never assume.

Losing the deposit is not going to financially ruin my friend; his wife's cancer might. He makes good money, but anyone who has gone through the process knows that out-of-pocket expenses are massive.

So at the end of the day, you pays your nickle and you take your chances and I am not going to be surprised if the PH keeps the deposit in this instance. The fact that he didn't have a written policy and was ambiguous about the refund made that pretty clear to me.

So here's a question - Are there any circumstances where the PH should always refund a deposit?

The following excerpt is what is outlined by most outfitters in their "Terms of Business"

"Reservations will be confirmed on receipt of a deposit of 45% of the daily rate total.
We strongly advise you to take out insurance for yourself and your property before the start of the safari.

Cancellation Policy:
Deposits are refunded only if cancellation is received in writing at least nine months prior to the scheduled starting date, less any costs the company may have incurred."

Assuming that the safari was not booked a year in advance, then the cancellation period works in proportion to the time the booking was actually made.

IMO an outfitter is under no obligation therefore to refund the entire deposit for compassionate reasons.

[/QUOTE]Is the outfitter still a douche-nozzle for not refunding the deposit? Yes. We are talking about a PG trip here so figure half the daily rates on 10 days as the deposit right? What is that...$2500 or so?
[/QUOTE]

If it is such an insignificant figure for the outfitter (who has his share of running expenses and a family to maintain) it should also be the same for the other party who could afford the luxury of booking the hunt in the first place.

Nobody looks to tangle with Big C but if push comes to shove, those $2,500 aren't going to solve nor ease the situation financially.

Why don't the naysayers who are so concerned pay the man his deposit and transfer the confirmed safari booking to their name?

Two years ago I got cancer after booking a hunt to Burkina thru Arjun Reddy. In the end I was able to make the hunt but Arjun was very supportive and helpful. I will not forget his integrity.

In 2007 I had to cancel an elephant hunt with Dudley Rodgers. I offered to rebook for 2008 but he refused to refund my deposit or credit it to 2008 unless he could resell the 2007 hunt. That was the last I ever heard from him. Needless to say I did not consider him for my two subsequent hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

If it is such an insignificant figure for the outfitter (who has his share of running expenses and a family to maintain) it should also be the same for the other party who could afford the luxury of booking the hunt in the first place.

Nobody looks to tangle with Big C but if push comes to shove, those $2,500 aren't going to solve nor ease the situation financially.

Why don't the naysayers who are so concerned pay the man his deposit and transfer the confirmed safari booking to their name?

Many clients expect safari companies to underwrite their own personal misadventures.

You think cancer is a personal misadventure. There is the right think to do and the easy thing to do. Keeping any deposit 6 month out is bs period for a reason like this.

The name gets out who it is doing it they will pay 10x for keeping the deposit.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
You think cancer is a personal misadventure. There is the right think to do and the easy thing to do. Keeping any deposit 6 month out is bs period for a reason like this.

The name gets out who it is doing it they will pay 10x for keeping the deposit.

I was speaking in general, not referring to the OP. Contracts should be in place to protect both parties.

Indy you got off light in dealing with dudley.i know of 2 other people + me that he screwed big time.He has been doing it for a long time.

Not sure about South Africa, but, in other countries the outfitter has to make a commitment regarding his concession.

Which means he has to pay the government, regardless of whether he has any clients or not.

So a client booking certain animals, and a certain slot, and then not making the trip is going to cost the operator money.

Best wishes and prayers to your wife on a swift recovery.

1. The outfitter offered to carry over to the following year.

2. The person did not take out travel insurance.

3. They were thankfully able to catch the cancer early enough and should be able to treat it.

I'm not quite sure how this falls on the outfitter.

Who knows what bills or commitments an outfitter has. Staff who families depend on him, small children at home, an elderly parent who needs health or personal care?

Hope your friends wife receives excellent treatment and is cancer free.

I feel for people with cancer. My father died of it. My wife had it and lives with after effects every single day of her life. She is a hand surgeon who no longer has feeling in her hands. Therefore, she can no longer operate. I have a business partner who is out with it right now. I am very sympathetic to those with the disease.

Having said that, I am on the outfitters side. The client made a bad decision in not buying travel insurance. If this affects their life that much, they made a bad decision in booking a hunt under any circumstance. From what I am told, this is not the best year to be looking for a replacement client.

Opinions are just that. Opinions. The contract terms dictate what should happen.

Remove the buzzwords and ask the same question....

You make a deposit on a hunt. The "amount" is either significant to you or not. Hunt insurance will be an additional 25-40% of your deposit amount.
I recently paid a $1500 deposit and hunt insurance is $400 dollars. That's an additional 26% out of pocket. Not a chance I'm buying.
Time goes buy and shit happens. Whatever the reason.... I want to cancel. Of course the hunting company wants to keep the cash. My options are to sell the hunt myself, lose my deposit or re-book. Fairly generous terms IMO.

It's not reasonable to force a company to decide what is a valid/sympathetic reason for returning a deposit. Just as it's not reasonable to expect a hunter to pay 100% up front.
Use it or lose it. Regardless in my book.

Ski+3

Screw what the contract says. I'd give the deposit back, and have done so. Good deeds come back around many times over. Just ask that Bushwhack loser what happens when you don't.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Screw what the contract says. I'd give the deposit back, and have done so. Good deeds come back around many times over. Just ask that Bushwhack loser what happens when you don't.

what happened old fart?

If the deposit was listed as "non-refundable" then the outfitter has no legal obligation to refund any of the money. Most contracts have a clause which addresses these issues.

Some outfitters out of the goodness of their heart (or as a good will gesture) might refund some or all of the deposit, despite the wording of the contract, but that shouldn't be counted on, or expected IMO.

Sorry to hear about your wife and I wish her a speedy and total recovery. I will say a prayer for her.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by Bushwack:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Screw what the contract says. I'd give the deposit back, and have done so. Good deeds come back around many times over. Just ask that Bushwhack loser what happens when you don't.

what happened old fart?

We all remember very well what happened. Surely you remember keeping a terminally ill hunter's deposit who eventually passed away, don't you? We all do.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Bushwack:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Screw what the contract says. I'd give the deposit back, and have done so. Good deeds come back around many times over. Just ask that Bushwhack loser what happens when you don't.

what happened old fart?

We all remember very well what happened. Surely you remember keeping a terminally ill hunter's deposit who eventually passed away, don't you? We all do.

JGRaider,

Bushwack is what you do in camp when you have been away from your woman for a while.

One time I canceled hunt and simply told outfitter to keep deposit for his trouble
Not everybody is in same boat, but sometimes business can be tough.
I look at that this way, I would return deposit with thought of down the line the decision would help me and maybe even bolster my business and make me feel like I helped someone in time of need.
At the same time, I totally can see if outfitter will not do that.
Two sides of the coin.
It is really up to an individual
I hope , wife will get better.
Mine passed away from illness and it was tough.
Wouldn't recommend it to anyone...

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
One time I canceled hunt and simply told outfitter to keep deposit for his trouble
Not everybody is in same boat, but sometimes business can be tough.
I look at that this way, I would return deposit with thought of down the line the decision would help me and maybe even bolster my business and make me feel like I helped someone in time of need.
At the same time, I totally can see if outfitter will not do that.
Two sides of the coin.
It is really up to an individual
I hope , wife will get better.
Mine passed away from illness and it was tough.
Wouldn't recommend it to anyone...

boarkiller,

I am sitting up late and I read this and I am truly sorry for your loss. Not sure what I would do without my wife mate.

I do not really do contracts and you pay a deposit and if you can't come you get your money back. I have stated something about 30 days but never called it in.

I can always sell the safari to another.