We would all agree that hunting a mature lion is what we all want to occur. I am curious if anyone else has seen this language? Could the effect of this type of language in government regulation for all intents and purposes not result in the closing of lion hunting? And to what good does this type of language then achieve? Would a PH in his right mind ever shoot a lion with this language looming over their head?

May add something like if a PH allows a lion to be shot that is less than 6 years old then the outfitter loses his lion quota on that concession for the next year.

My sense . . . those types of restrictions would mean little in the context of the conversation about whether lion hunting should be continued . . . the objective of the opponents of lion hunting is to eliminate lion hunting (and then all hunting) not to achieve some legitimate conservation objective.

EDITED: I think it is sort of like the USFWS and their information demands related to the elephant ban. They demand X, Y and Z. They are provided with X, Y and Z. Then they demand A, B and C. What becomes clear is that no matter what you give them in response to their requests they will come up with new requests and additional reasons to leave the ban in place.

Could not agree with you more Mike. My understanding is that this is now in effect in TZ. I have not confirmed this yet.

It has been in effect for a few years now but it means nothing when the offender can influence the result of the age analysis

quote:

can influence the result of the age analysis

Thats because the "age analysis" is not built on good science.
Its a crock of shit that is meant to give the anti hunters a stick to beat the hunters with.

It's built on good science all right. Hunters keep ignoring it to our own detriment.

The quotas are so small and age estimate so prone to fail that it is really an anti hunting tool and also anti PH
Pretty ridiculous but with the prices where sky is the limit in Tanz, most of us do not give a shit

So with a third time offence you wind find $10,000

For what it is worth...

I think that scientific measurement of age on the carcass of a dead lion is reasonably accurate, probably within 6 months if I read the paper correctly.

The problem is that measuring age while the lion is alive and in the wild is quite a different matter.

It does take some of the joy of lion hunting out of it for the PH's if they need to verify with multiple sources whether or not the animal is of age...and then if it is not, they are the ones holding the bag.

Personally, I would like to see the documentation of age from a scientific point of view available to the PH and the client, but it seems that is not happening, that the only way the client knows is if it was too young to export and the PH only knows if he gets fined.

Given all the photos and what not that are given to the authorities, one would think they would be able to point out, as an educational service, the findings that show it to be too young.

One would like to think that all the criteria were used together and just one would not be used to punish folks so if you shoot a swaybacked huge maned animal with worn teeth, who shows older coloration and scars up the wazoo, but the radiological evaluation says he is borderline, they call it 6+ given the mass of data.

If I read the papers right, it looks,like there should be no quota on lion, but rather if it's 6, you can shoot it, if not, you can't. Of course, that does not take in to account all the other issues in a given block... Zim had a good record on lion with increased numbers and shooting females as well, but by sticking with a strict quota that was adhered to including the non hunter kills.

Quotas need to be cut end of story. In some places they should have a quota of females. One such place is the Zambezi valley.

This regulation language serves no purpose other than to stop all lion hunting as there is no definitive scientific way to determine the exact age of a lion before or after the kill. In the hunting field it's impossible other than to see that the lion is a 'trophy' lion of a hunting lifetime. That isn't good enough because some guy in Dar is going to decide whether or not you're going to spend the next six months in jail! So why would a PH take the chance?

I think this language has been around for a while.

Unless I am mistaken, the jail time is if you cannot pay the fine.

You may be right that the language could be applied in such a fashion but it does not specify that clearly. I am not a criminal attorney but IMO statute language that contains “to a fine of XYZ or imprisonment for” contains a great deal of interpretive and judicial latitude. That in my opinion could be a very dangerous gray area for a PH in TZ.