A lion question

28 October 2011, 08:57

Scott King

A lion question

quote:
Originally posted by talentrec:
quote:
Originally posted by JohnHunt:
There is only one way to properly age a lion. It is ball size. Bottom line is the ethical PH and hunter must check a lion for ball size, weight and general conformation. If they are proper then you are free to return to your blind and take your shot. If not then you must do the ethical thing and leave the lion alone to continue growing a proper pair. Note that ball size is also dependend on mane color. With the darker maned lions being somewhat luckier in this regard. Finally the trickiest bit is retreating after the hand check as some lions have adopted an unwilling PH or two into there pride (typically SA PH's). A bit awkward to explain at the next SCI convention.

Thanks John. I just spit beer all over my keyboard!

That picture makes me nervous for more than one reason.

28 October 2011, 12:14

JohnHunt

yeah... anyone can shoot a lion, but to do this... well...

28 October 2011, 17:52

Saeed

I think Buzz nailed it from a practical point of view.

28 October 2011, 20:40

TANZ-PH

As of this (2011) season, Tanzania Ministry/Natural Resources & Tourism started giving us phs more paperwork: now we must fill out a new "MONITORING OF LION TOURIST HUNTING form. its quite easy now, but in near future we will need to also collect & submit blood & skin samples, exact measurements, and 7 close up detailed photos of each lion! also, details of how many lions seen (males, females, sub adults, cubs), days hunted, GPS location of kill, and condition of the lion (healthy, thin, wounds, snares). they are getting quite serious regards lions.

29 October 2011, 00:50

fujotupu

quote:
Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
As of this (2011) season, Tanzania Ministry/Natural Resources & Tourism started giving us phs more paperwork: now we must fill out a new "MONITORING OF LION TOURIST HUNTING form. its quite easy now, but in near future we will need to also collect & submit blood & skin samples, exact measurements, and 7 close up detailed photos of each lion! also, details of how many lions seen (males, females, sub adults, cubs), days hunted, GPS location of kill, and condition of the lion (healthy, thin, wounds, snares). they are getting quite serious regards lions.

Basically we are feeding them free information - shouldn't they be out in the field verifying it for themselves as true researchers?
They do also say "Thank You for your assistance" (or words to that effect).

The questionnaire for the moment requires the PH to submit full data to include photos of the animal showing full features, mane (2 angles), nose and canines.
Blood and skin samples when they eventually get their act together and supply appropriate vials for their preservation.

These questionnaires are to be completed regardless of a Lion having been taken or not.

I might be wrong.

29 October 2011, 04:52

MikeBurke

It looks like 12 years do mate. I hope when I am 12 in lion years I still can also.

29 October 2011, 04:53

MikeBurke

Can somebody age this lion for me.

29 October 2011, 08:36

505 gibbs

He has a full mane, he must be old enough to shoot....

29 October 2011, 08:53

Antlers

...nose is still a little pink.

29 October 2011, 23:21

BrettAKSCI

quote:
Originally posted by Antlers:
...nose is still a little pink.

......and wet........and cold......

Brett

DRSS
Life Member SCI
Life Member NRA
Life Member WSF

Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter
May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick.
And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too.
May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep.
May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip.
-Seth Peterson

29 October 2011, 23:52

BrettAKSCI

quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
The client has not paid for the right to do what they want but for the opportunity to hunt on your concessions by following your companies’ policies and regulations.

I think there's something to be said for that. If you're telling people up front what your policy is there's no ambiguity. If they don't like it they'll hunt somewhere else. Lane from what I've read of all the current models in place the Niassa seems to be the best. The quota system is open to government metalling as proof with TZ and recent problems in some Zim blocks that have come to light.

Brett

30 October 2011, 05:14

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Lane from what I've read of all the current models in place the Niassa seems to be the best. The quota system is open to government metalling as proof with TZ and recent problems in some Zim blocks that have come to light.

Brett

Thank you sir...after all the heat I take...I really appreciate that!

30 October 2011, 06:03

jjbull

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Lane from what I've read of all the current models in place the Niassa seems to be the best. The quota system is open to government metalling as proof with TZ and recent problems in some Zim blocks that have come to light.

Brett

Thank you sir...after all the heat I take...I really appreciate that!

So am I to understand the "Niassa Model" for Lions was developed by Dr. Easter?

30 October 2011, 06:30

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by jjbull:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Lane from what I've read of all the current models in place the Niassa seems to be the best. The quota system is open to government metalling as proof with TZ and recent problems in some Zim blocks that have come to light.

Brett

Thank you sir...after all the heat I take...I really appreciate that!

So am I to understand the "Niassa Model" for Lions was developed by Dr. Easter?

Of course NOT. Just the plan I endorse!

Dr. Colleen Begg (a grad student of Dr. Craig Packer) along with other members of the Niassa Carnivore Project...sanctioned by the authorities of Mozambique...developed that plan.

It is working well and is a good way forward for the wild lion.

We (LCTF) advocated it for TZ.

30 October 2011, 09:47

jjbull

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by jjbull:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Lane from what I've read of all the current models in place the Niassa seems to be the best. The quota system is open to government metalling as proof with TZ and recent problems in some Zim blocks that have come to light.

Brett

Thank you sir...after all the heat I take...I really appreciate that!

So am I to understand the "Niassa Model" for Lions was developed by Dr. Easter?

Of course NOT. Just the plan I endorse!

That was my original understanding. Your "thank you" and "really appreciate that!" just seemed out of the ordinary seeing you had nothing to do with developing or implementing the plan.

However, your endorsing and advocating does not go unnoticed.

30 October 2011, 11:20

jdollar

quote:
Originally posted by fujotupu:
quote:
Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
As of this (2011) season, Tanzania Ministry/Natural Resources & Tourism started giving us phs more paperwork: now we must fill out a new "MONITORING OF LION TOURIST HUNTING form. its quite easy now, but in near future we will need to also collect & submit blood & skin samples, exact measurements, and 7 close up detailed photos of each lion! also, details of how many lions seen (males, females, sub adults, cubs), days hunted, GPS location of kill, and condition of the lion (healthy, thin, wounds, snares). they are getting quite serious regards lions.

Basically we are feeding them free information - shouldn't they be out in the field verifying it for themselves as true researchers?
They do also say "Thank You for your assistance" (or words to that effect).

The questionnaire for the moment requires the PH to submit full data to include photos of the animal showing full features, mane (2 angles), nose and canines.
Blood and skin samples when they eventually get their act together and supply appropriate vials for their preservation.

These questionnaires are to be completed regardless of a Lion having been taken or not.

I might be wrong.

I GOTTA THINK IT WILL BE HARD TO SUPPLY THE PICTURES REQUIRED(NOT TO MENTION BLOOD AND SKIN SAMPLES) IF A LION ISN'T SHOT! THEN AGAIN, MAYBE TZ PH'S ARE CAPABLE OF AMAZING FEATS OF MAGIC. GOOD LUCK TO THE POOR SOB'S THAT HAVE TO FURNISH THE DATA "REGARDLESS OF A LION HAVING BEEN TAKEN OR NOT".

30 October 2011, 12:50

ozhunter

quote:
Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
As of this (2011) season, Tanzania Ministry/Natural Resources & Tourism started giving us phs more paperwork: now we must fill out a new "MONITORING OF LION TOURIST HUNTING form. its quite easy now, but in near future we will need to also collect & submit blood & skin samples, exact measurements, and 7 close up detailed photos of each lion! also, details of how many lions seen (males, females, sub adults, cubs), days hunted, GPS location of kill, and condition of the lion (healthy, thin, wounds, snares). they are getting quite serious regards lions.

Sounds just like what is required in the Niassa Reserve and if I'm not mistaken, Colleen from Niassa when to a meeting in Dar in 2010 about this topic.

30 October 2011, 13:08

fujotupu

[/QUOTE]
I GOTTA THINK IT WILL BE HARD TO SUPPLY THE PICTURES REQUIRED(NOT TO MENTION BLOOD AND SKIN SAMPLES) IF A LION ISN'T SHOT! THEN AGAIN, MAYBE TZ PH'S ARE CAPABLE OF AMAZING FEATS OF MAGIC. GOOD LUCK TO THE POOR SOB'S THAT HAVE TO FURNISH THE DATA "REGARDLESS OF A LION HAVING BEEN TAKEN OR NOT".[/QUOTE]

When a Lion is not taken data is obviously not available (to some but not others).
PHs however are still required to fill in the other fields on the questionnaire ie. sightings: how many, in which concession,trophy males,sub-adult males, prides, etc. etc. etc.
LVDM could possibly confirm.

30 October 2011, 14:06

Bwanamich

This form has been posted in the Lion Conservation forum. It is self explanatory to even the least literate of people.

30 October 2011, 16:11

TANZ-PH

quote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
quote:
Originally posted by fujotupu:
quote:
Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
As of this (2011) season, Tanzania Ministry/Natural Resources & Tourism started giving us phs more paperwork: now we must fill out a new "MONITORING OF LION TOURIST HUNTING form. its quite easy now, but in near future we will need to also collect & submit blood & skin samples, exact measurements, and 7 close up detailed photos of each lion! also, details of how many lions seen (males, females, sub adults, cubs), days hunted, GPS location of kill, and condition of the lion (healthy, thin, wounds, snares). they are getting quite serious regards lions.

Basically we are feeding them free information - shouldn't they be out in the field verifying it for themselves as true researchers?
They do also say "Thank You for your assistance" (or words to that effect).

The questionnaire for the moment requires the PH to submit full data to include photos of the animal showing full features, mane (2 angles), nose and canines.
Blood and skin samples when they eventually get their act together and supply appropriate vials for their preservation.

These questionnaires are to be completed regardless of a Lion having been taken or not.

I might be wrong.

I GOTTA THINK IT WILL BE HARD TO SUPPLY THE PICTURES REQUIRED(NOT TO MENTION BLOOD AND SKIN SAMPLES) IF A LION ISN'T SHOT! THEN AGAIN, MAYBE TZ PH'S ARE CAPABLE OF AMAZING FEATS OF MAGIC. GOOD LUCK TO THE POOR SOB'S THAT HAVE TO FURNISH THE DATA "REGARDLESS OF A LION HAVING BEEN TAKEN OR NOT".

No, I'm not a magician, and (thankfully) I dont have to draw blood from live lions!! I dont know why the confusion? I guess I probably should have wrote "photos/blood of each lion SHOT". From what my company tells me, we must fill out the form (all, or in part) if lion is on the permit, (regardless if one was hunted, or not). Example: Some of my safaris this year had lion on permit, but the hunter did not wish to shoot a lion.
If no lion is hunted, the form is only filled out in part. If a lion IS SHOT then they will require more info, (plus detailed photos & blood & skin samples).
i have the form in front of me, and on page 3 has four boxes: 1) INFO (PH, company & client name, etc) 2) COURSE OF THE SAFARI, 3) IF LION WAS HARVESTED 4) REMARKS.
In the "Course of the safari" box, they also want to know info on number of prides/lions seen. Hope really this clears things up for you.....

30 October 2011, 18:09

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by jjbull:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by jjbull:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Lane from what I've read of all the current models in place the Niassa seems to be the best. The quota system is open to government metalling as proof with TZ and recent problems in some Zim blocks that have come to light.

Brett

Thank you sir...after all the heat I take...I really appreciate that!

So am I to understand the "Niassa Model" for Lions was developed by Dr. Easter?

Of course NOT. Just the plan I endorse!

That was my original understanding. Your "thank you" and "really appreciate that!" just seemed out of the ordinary seeing you had nothing to do with developing or implementing the plan.

However, your endorsing and advocating does not go unnoticed.

I said thank you because for close to a year now...Aaron and I have been holding this model up as THE WAY FORWORD FOR THE LION and Brett finally analyzed it and agreed it is a good plan. A small recognition of our efforts. I thought a simple thank you was in order.

30 October 2011, 19:38

fujotupu

quote:
Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
quote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
quote:
Originally posted by fujotupu:
quote:
Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
As of this (2011) season, Tanzania Ministry/Natural Resources & Tourism started giving us phs more paperwork: now we must fill out a new "MONITORING OF LION TOURIST HUNTING form. its quite easy now, but in near future we will need to also collect & submit blood & skin samples, exact measurements, and 7 close up detailed photos of each lion! also, details of how many lions seen (males, females, sub adults, cubs), days hunted, GPS location of kill, and condition of the lion (healthy, thin, wounds, snares). they are getting quite serious regards lions.

Basically we are feeding them free information - shouldn't they be out in the field verifying it for themselves as true researchers?
They do also say "Thank You for your assistance" (or words to that effect).

The questionnaire for the moment requires the PH to submit full data to include photos of the animal showing full features, mane (2 angles), nose and canines.
Blood and skin samples when they eventually get their act together and supply appropriate vials for their preservation.

These questionnaires are to be completed regardless of a Lion having been taken or not.

I might be wrong.

I GOTTA THINK IT WILL BE HARD TO SUPPLY THE PICTURES REQUIRED(NOT TO MENTION BLOOD AND SKIN SAMPLES) IF A LION ISN'T SHOT! THEN AGAIN, MAYBE TZ PH'S ARE CAPABLE OF AMAZING FEATS OF MAGIC. GOOD LUCK TO THE POOR SOB'S THAT HAVE TO FURNISH THE DATA "REGARDLESS OF A LION HAVING BEEN TAKEN OR NOT".

No, I'm not a magician, and (thankfully) I dont have to draw blood from live lions!! I dont know why the confusion? I guess I probably should have wrote "photos/blood of each lion SHOT". From what my company tells me, we must fill out the form (all, or in part) if lion is on the permit, (regardless if one was hunted, or not). Example: Some of my safaris this year had lion on permit, but the hunter did not wish to shoot a lion.
If no lion is hunted, the form is only filled out in part. If a lion IS SHOT then they will require more info, (plus detailed photos & blood & skin samples).
i have the form in front of me, and on page 3 has four boxes: 1) INFO (PH, company & client name, etc) 2) COURSE OF THE SAFARI, 3) IF LION WAS HARVESTED 4) REMARKS.
In the "Course of the safari" box, they also want to know info on number of prides/lions seen. Hope really this clears things up for you.....

Tanz-PH:

Unfortunately this world is made up of quite a few smart ass SOB's who have nothing better to do or say in life and no matter how one tries, the message doesn't get through. Achana nae!

30 October 2011, 20:51

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by fujotupu:

Unfortunately this world is made up of quite a few smart ass SOB's who have nothing better to do or say in life and no matter how one tries, the message doesn't get through. Achana nae!

Truer words were never spoken!!!

31 October 2011, 06:16

BrettAKSCI

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by jjbull:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by jjbull:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Lane from what I've read of all the current models in place the Niassa seems to be the best. The quota system is open to government metalling as proof with TZ and recent problems in some Zim blocks that have come to light.

Brett

Thank you sir...after all the heat I take...I really appreciate that!

So am I to understand the "Niassa Model" for Lions was developed by Dr. Easter?

Of course NOT. Just the plan I endorse!

That was my original understanding. Your "thank you" and "really appreciate that!" just seemed out of the ordinary seeing you had nothing to do with developing or implementing the plan.

However, your endorsing and advocating does not go unnoticed.

I said thank you because for close to a year now...Aaron and I have been holding this model up as THE WAY FORWORD FOR THE LION and Brett finally analyzed it and agreed it is a good plan. A small recognition of our efforts. I thought a simple thank you was in order.

It takes the positives from the "quota crowd" and mates it with 6yr science, rewards for good management, and punishes for indescriminate shooting without decapitating for the occasional mistake. I can't even see a close second, but that's just my opinion.

Brett

31 October 2011, 08:21

jdollar

reread the original post by fujotupu, mich and the rest of you guys. i quote: " the questionaire for the moment requires the PH to submit full data to include photos, etc., etc., etc. these questionaires are to be be completed REGARDLESS OF A LION HAVING BEEN TAKEN OR NOT( caps added by me). so who is illiterate?? i have many shortcomings but thank God, illiteracy isn't one of them. not so sure about others. i would never presume to "know" what an African "means" by ANY regulation as opposed to what the regulation states.

31 October 2011, 13:35

fujotupu

Indeed, REGARDLESS if it were shot or not and provided it was included in the license.
It stands to reason (that's if you wish to apply some simple logic whether you are illiterate or not)

31 October 2011, 13:55

fujotupu

quote:
Originally posted by fujotupu:
Indeed, REGARDLESS if it were shot or not and provided it was included in the license.
It stands to reason (that's if you wish to apply some simple logic whether you are illiterate or not)

As in most any questionnaires, application forms, etc. where certain fields cannot be complied with, the norm is to 'X' or N/A the box - quite simple really!
And the paperwork HAS to be completed - whether it was shot or not, regardless if it was turned down because the mane was ginger and not black; regardless if a Lion and the rest of his gender were sighted or not - the form gets completed and submitted.
If you wish, take a moment and revisit the "African Lions Hunting Management & Ecology forum further down the page (First page, First item).

03 November 2011, 06:39

Aaron Neilson

quote:
Originally posted by Mike70560:
I would have shot also. I have been in elephant and buffalo herds and was never scared. Snakes do not bother me (for the most part). Lions in the wild scare the hell out of me.

I do not know if I will ever hunt one. It is the only one of the big four I have not taken.

Now for the rest of the story.

The reason this was posted, is to justify just how difficult it is in the field to see a collar and to know if it has dependent cubs and mating, PH's take so much flack ( Martin Pieters to mention one) on a collared elephant and on a lion that was supposedly "the last lion" of Bumi.

O.K we all shot it and now what?

a. You (and your PH) get abused because you never saw the collar, now you become an unethical hunter.
b. You never knew he was mating, which he was, did you do your "due diligence" on dependent cubs?
c. And yes, he is 12 years old, believe me no narrow face and no Mohican!! So it is pretty hard to determine age, is it not?
d. And he had a name which will be thrown in your face.

I tried posting awhile back, but I had poor service on my IPad in eastern Colorado.

Shoot him, period! Collar or no collar, I shoot him!! Not sure what all the controversy is, but I haven't read through it all either?