There is more to the story (from those who didn't stay back): quite a few "cock ups"

The encounter did not end well for Phillip. It was bad. Very bad.

A key point to learn so his death is not a waste is to not run after a wounded elephant along his path as he will turn around and come right down that path again towards you......the tracker managed to jump out of the way under a bush, Phillip did not.

Sadly, there was even more damage done by moving him out of the bush, but what can you do with limited resources.......

I'm done. Very sad. He was such a nice guy, he just lit up the room when he entered.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
There is more to the story (from those who didn't stay back): quite a few "cock ups"

The encounter did not end well for Phillip. It was bad. Very bad.

A key point to learn so his death is not a waste is to not run after a wounded elephant along his path as he will turn around and come right down that path again towards you......the tracker managed to jump out of the way under a bush, Phillip did not.

Sadly, there was even more damage done by moving him out of the bush, but what can you do with limited resources.......

I'm done. Very sad. He was such a nice guy, he just lit up the room when he entered.

Very very sad to hear this.

But, ultimately we must accept that things might turn out different to what we hoped.

Personally, I consider myself extremely lucky, as in my youth I did some very stupid things.

I hardly got a scratch.

I hhave written off 3 cars.

I had double tire blow out doing over 160 mph.

My car went into the desert, but did not flip.

Was written off.

BMW M1

Another I hit a camel at very high speed.

The speed saved me, as the camel went over the car. Smashing the windshield and almost flattening the roof over me.

The whole car body was crumbled.

BMW 635

I hit a caterpillar shovel, also at high speed.

The engine of my car cracked!!

Got a bit of a neck ache and a split lip.

Nothing else.

BMW 730.

And I was not wearing seat belt.

I could related all the stupid things we did in single engine aircraft and helicopters too.

I think there is something to do with faith.

If it is not your time, you will get through many stupid things.

When your time comes, there is no stopping it.

I don't understand people who refuse to do things because they are afraid of things going wrong.

I must admit that in my old age - 71 - I have become a bit more careful.

Went up on the Alps, several friends were discussing going on a zip line across the mountains.

Then they started arguing who goes first, as no one wants to.

I had to go first, and then they all went.

My daughter is just like me.

I hope she has my luck.

And I hope all of you do too.

I hear you, Saeed.

Fate has given me a few breaks, too - I would have to say more than my share, given how many times I have sorely tempted her.

But this thread has rambled around a bit.

My view on this subject is simple. Mike Core is right. Make the first shot count.

In dangerous game hunting, nothing is more important.

But as others have said, none of us is perfect.

So, what? That’s not really breaking news.

The real question here is, how are we imperfect men supposed to act when things go sideways?

How about this: Don’t start anything that you’re not ready, willing and able to finish.

Without any sorry assed excuses.

Come what may.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
There is no excuse for any man who stays back, and does not personally follow up, or assist in following up, any dangerous big game animal that he has shot and wounded.

I think a re-read of the eye witness account convinces me that the blame for the unfolding of events lays squarely at the feet of the one who tragically lost his life;

"The trackers had stayed back on a hill for the final approach". --------- indicates possibly hilly rough country? Everyone was probably a little tired and dehydrated, with adrenaline up.

"The bull immediately fled away from the hunting party with Phillip instantly giving chase". ------------ seemingly no time to rest, rehydrate and come up with a strategy for following up a wounded dangerous animal, one of the most dangerous. Did Phillip run the animal down - what would his physical state be when he caught up to enable a killing shot to be made?
Did the elephant ambush a rushing Phillip - only one set of eyes and ears, trackers back on the hill.

"The client was tired and stayed behind with the other staff member". --------- a pause, take on some water and discuss a plan, could have been good to go and support.

"The trackers stayed behind on the hill". -------- really, just when you need trackers with more sets of eyes and ears and they stayed behind on the hill, on whose instruction?


Everyone at one time or another in their hunting career makes a bum shot, I don't think a poster in this discussion denies that most having done so themselves, can't blame the hunter for that (unless he has a reputation for it), Sad as it all is, I don't see anything that followed considering the haste of decisions made after the shot, that can be blamed on anyone but Phillip.


Inexplicable for a PH of his reputation however dehydration, tiredness and adrenaline over dose are only too well known for causing poor decision making. If only the clock could be turned back.

May be he asked the trackers to stay back because they knew where the elephant was?

And did not want to worry about others?

We cannot pass judgement, as non of us was there.

Even then, anyone who has hunted long enough would know many things don't turn out as planned.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
There is more to the story (from those who didn't stay back): quite a few "cock ups"

The encounter did not end well for Phillip. It was bad. Very bad.

A key point to learn so his death is not a waste is to not run after a wounded elephant along his path as he will turn around and come right down that path again towards you......the tracker managed to jump out of the way under a bush, Phillip did not.

Sadly, there was even more damage done by moving him out of the bush, but what can you do with limited resources.......

I'm done. Very sad. He was such a nice guy, he just lit up the room when he entered.

Very very sad to hear this.

But, ultimately we must accept that things might turn out different to what we hoped.

Personally, I consider myself extremely lucky, as in my youth I did some very stupid things.

I hardly got a scratch.

I hhave written off 3 cars.

I had double tire blow out doing over 160 mph.

My car went into the desert, but did not flip.

Was written off.

BMW M1

Another I hit a camel at very high speed.

The speed saved me, as the camel went over the car. Smashing the windshield and almost flattening the roof over me.

The whole car body was crumbled.

BMW 635

I hit a caterpillar shovel, also at high speed.

The engine of my car cracked!!

Got a bit of a neck ache and a split lip.

Nothing else.

BMW 730.

And I was not wearing seat belt.

I could related all the stupid things we did in single engine aircraft and helicopters too.

I think there is something to do with faith.

If it is not your time, you will get through many stupid things.

When your time comes, there is no stopping it.

I don't understand people who refuse to do things because they are afraid of things going wrong.

I must admit that in my old age - 71 - I have become a bit more careful.

Went up on the Alps, several friends were discussing going on a zip line across the mountains.

Then they started arguing who goes first, as no one wants to.

I had to go first, and then they all went.

My daughter is just like me.

I hope she has my luck.

And I hope all of you do too.

I don’t mean to derail this thread about Mr. Smythe, but Saeed, I blame the BMWs.

I hope you quit buying them or they quit selling them to you. However, it sounds like you were a great customer.

Second, you need to write a book. All of the tales from your hunts, BMW adventures, and everything else we learn from time to time are amazing and great entertainment.

I know I would buy a copy, as would most here. Shoot, you have a few chapters full of just the “heroes” shooting. There’s plenty to be written about Walter.

I think the AR crowd would preorder enough to cover the costs. There are many authors on the forum to put your adventures in print.

I just enjoy hearing your stories and laugh hoping I could be there and experience them. The Selous thumbdrives are wonderful, but we need more!

If I mentioned some of things we did when we were kids, you will start thinking I have absolutely no brains whatsoever!

My father used to ask non stop.

“When are you going to stop trying to kill yourselves?”

The credo of do your best, or don’t do it comes to mind.

I’ve created a few cock-ups in my day. Sometimes help came and saved me, sometimes I’ve solved the problem myself, and a very few were, for lack of a better term, divine intervention.

I’m no athlete. When folks start running, I fall behind. But I never ask someone else to sort out my problems without trying to do everything I can.

Unfortunate event and blame never helped nobody
Hunting is a tough sport and shit can go sideways in a seconds
and we may not have a chance to learn from our mistakes
So let’s hunt some more and be somewhat safe if we can…

quote:

Second, you need to write a book.

I've been saying that for years!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be he asked the trackers to stay back because they knew where the elephant was?

And did not want to worry about others?

We cannot pass judgement, as non of us was there.

Even then, anyone who has hunted long enough would know many things don't turn out as planned.

I am not wishing to apportion blame but as in my first post while I would generally agree a hunter should be prepared to follow up on game he himself has wounded, I defended the hunter as maybe other factors came into play. I think when reading the eye witness account carefully and considering some of the relevant facts, there has been some intimations made about the hunter by some posters that are not supported by fact e.g. too old, too fat, totally out of condition, no excuse for any man who stays back.
Maybe the hunter was tired but after considering some of the eye witness observations it would be a safe beat that others in the party were too and it seems Phillip controlled the group to the detriment of his own safety and potentially to the groups too. The hunter and other member of party (whoever that was) were left behind, trackers left behind on a hill and Phillip gave chase instantly and alone.

Phillip paid with his life for the decisions he made, I don't think we can blame the hunter or any others in the party. It seems they had no say in the matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:

quote:

Second, you need to write a book.

I've been saying that for years!

He really needs to write one. Will you edit it?

You really don't want to edit Saeed's writing. That is part of the allure! And, the forward should be written by Walter himself!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be he asked the trackers to stay back because they knew where the elephant was?

And did not want to worry about others?

We cannot pass judgement, as non of us was there.

Even then, anyone who has hunted long enough would know many things don't turn out as planned.

I am not wishing to apportion blame but as in my first post while I would generally agree a hunter should be prepared to follow up on game he himself has wounded, I defended the hunter as maybe other factors came into play. I think when reading the eye witness account carefully and considering some of the relevant facts, there has been some intimations made about the hunter by some posters that are not supported by fact e.g. too old, too fat, totally out of condition, no excuse for any man who stays back.
Maybe the hunter was tired but after considering some of the eye witness observations it would be a safe beat that others in the party were too and it seems Phillip controlled the group to the detriment of his own safety and potentially to the groups too. The hunter and other member of party (whoever that was) were left behind, trackers left behind on a hill and Phillip gave chase instantly and alone.

Phillip paid with his life for the decisions he made, I don't think we can blame the hunter or any others in the party. It seems they had no say in the matter.

Like the pilot of an airplane, the PH has the ultimate control and responsibility of the hunt. But their are a myriad number of unforeseen possibilities and as I mentioned at the beginning of this, both my daughter and I had hunted with Philip and with the client and we had warned Philip of potential personality issues with the client. He was young and reasonably fit but was overly confident and inexperienced. To continue with the pilot metaphors, he was a Doctor in a Bonanza.
Knowing Philip, none of us were surprised at how he handled the situation, just shocked and saddened by the outcome.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
You really don't want to edit Saeed's writing. That is part of the allure! And, the forward should be written by Walter himself!

Yes, even better.

However, I think a review and commentary by one of the Vincents post draft would be even better!

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be he asked the trackers to stay back because they knew where the elephant was?

And did not want to worry about others?

We cannot pass judgement, as non of us was there.

Even then, anyone who has hunted long enough would know many things don't turn out as planned.

I am not wishing to apportion blame but as in my first post while I would generally agree a hunter should be prepared to follow up on game he himself has wounded, I defended the hunter as maybe other factors came into play. I think when reading the eye witness account carefully and considering some of the relevant facts, there has been some intimations made about the hunter by some posters that are not supported by fact e.g. too old, too fat, totally out of condition, no excuse for any man who stays back.
Maybe the hunter was tired but after considering some of the eye witness observations it would be a safe beat that others in the party were too and it seems Phillip controlled the group to the detriment of his own safety and potentially to the groups too. The hunter and other member of party (whoever that was) were left behind, trackers left behind on a hill and Phillip gave chase instantly and alone.

Phillip paid with his life for the decisions he made, I don't think we can blame the hunter or any others in the party. It seems they had no say in the matter.

Like the pilot of an airplane, the PH has the ultimate control and responsibility of the hunt. But their are a myriad number of unforeseen possibilities and as I mentioned at the beginning of this, both my daughter and I had hunted with Philip and with the client and we had warned Philip of potential personality issues with the client. He was young and reasonably fit but was overly confident and inexperienced. To continue with the pilot metaphors, he was a Doctor in a Bonanza.
Knowing Philip, none of us were surprised at how he handled the situation, just shocked and saddened by the outcome.

Since you know the "client" I was wondering if he had stepped up and offered assistance to the Smythe family or at least participated in the numerous fund raising activities designed to help?

quote:

Originally posted by GunsCore:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be he asked the trackers to stay back because they knew where the elephant was?

And did not want to worry about others?

We cannot pass judgement, as non of us was there.

Even then, anyone who has hunted long enough would know many things don't turn out as planned.

I am not wishing to apportion blame but as in my first post while I would generally agree a hunter should be prepared to follow up on game he himself has wounded, I defended the hunter as maybe other factors came into play. I think when reading the eye witness account carefully and considering some of the relevant facts, there has been some intimations made about the hunter by some posters that are not supported by fact e.g. too old, too fat, totally out of condition, no excuse for any man who stays back.
Maybe the hunter was tired but after considering some of the eye witness observations it would be a safe beat that others in the party were too and it seems Phillip controlled the group to the detriment of his own safety and potentially to the groups too. The hunter and other member of party (whoever that was) were left behind, trackers left behind on a hill and Phillip gave chase instantly and alone.

Phillip paid with his life for the decisions he made, I don't think we can blame the hunter or any others in the party. It seems they had no say in the matter.

Like the pilot of an airplane, the PH has the ultimate control and responsibility of the hunt. But their are a myriad number of unforeseen possibilities and as I mentioned at the beginning of this, both my daughter and I had hunted with Philip and with the client and we had warned Philip of potential personality issues with the client. He was young and reasonably fit but was overly confident and inexperienced. To continue with the pilot metaphors, he was a Doctor in a Bonanza.
Knowing Philip, none of us were surprised at how he handled the situation, just shocked and saddened by the outcome.

Since you know the "client" I was wondering if he had stepped up and offered assistance to the Smythe family or at least participated in the numerous fund raising activities designed to help?

My son and daughter have remained in closer contact with Philip's crew and family but as far as I know the wealthy client quickly faded away once the severity of Philip's injuries became apparent.

But I hope he has chipped in !

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
How does a hunter or any man for that matter, justify not following up a wounded animal, especially dangerous game?

...

I agree.

I just came back from Zim. One of the things my PH and I discussed was following a wounded Leopard and logistics of it if I did not have a clean kill. We decided that I would load softs on my .500 NE and be in line with him on his left as I was left handed if we needed to track it. Ditto for the buffalo and elephant that was on the menu in regards to the procedures.

As it is nothing required tracking, but we had a plan.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
How does a hunter or any man for that matter, justify not following up a wounded animal, especially dangerous game?

...

I agree.

I just came back from Zim. One of the things my PH and I discussed was following a wounded Leopard and logistics of it if I did not have a clean kill. We decided that I would load softs on my .500 NE and be in line with him on his left as I was left handed if we needed to track it. Ditto for the buffalo and elephant that was on the menu in regards to the procedures.

As it is nothing required tracking, but we had a plan.

Having a known and TRUSTED friend helping you track dangerous and wounded game is a great relief.

Having a scared, nervous, un-trust worthy and unsafe client clomping along behind you with a loaded weapon is an entirely new level !