There's been a few threads in the past several months here...that makes me sadly question...

"The imminent decline of African hunting as we come to know it."

Personally, I'd like to see it get better if anything...I'm hoping to go back again at least 3-4x in the next 15-20 years

I would be interested in your thoughts...in order that I may have a better understanding of the past and current issues that we face ahead of us.

Things of concern to me are...

*Views of the different African Govts on DG Hunting?

*Hunt-able Land/Govt concessions?

*Recruitment of new hunters...is there a serious decline ahead of us in the amount of American safari sport-hunters?...that the market would fall-out and there would be much less African Outfitters and PH's?

Hope you can help me form an educated opinion on this matter and if any of you could share statistics even better yet

Thanks much appreciated

Roland

quote:

*Recruitment of new hunters...is there a serious decline ahead of us in the amount of American safari sport-hunters?...that the market would fall-out and there would be much less African Outfitters and PH's?

The only way to save trophy hunting is to get rid of the trophy hunters. Now that might sound a little strange, but here's what I mean.

Hunting has proven to be the single most environmentally-sound form of wildlife management, the most ecologically-friendly form of land-use, and the most successful means of empowering rural communities; but the image of some bloated fool gloating over the carcass of a beautiful animal just doesn't cut it any more. It's almost an insult to the animal ... at times embarassing to look at. Sorry ... but that's the way I see it.

I'm way past my prime but I at least try to maintain a little dignity when being photographed with an animal I've shot. After all, we're both noble species, and should always be represented as such.

Plus, the idea that bigger is better doesn't cut it either. A good representative example of a sustainably hunted species should be just fine for anyone. Period.

We are our biggest enemies.

So what we need is fewer trophy hunters and more (egad!) environmentalists who are bold enough to cross-over into our world.

I've got a lot more to say about this but that's a start.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:

quote:

*Recruitment of new hunters...is there a serious decline ahead of us in the amount of American safari sport-hunters?...that the market would fall-out and there would be much less African Outfitters and PH's?

The only way to save trophy hunting is to get rid of the trophy hunters. Now that might sound a little strange, but here's what I mean.

Hunting has proven to be the single most environmentally-sound form of wildlife management, the most ecologically-friendly form of land-use, and the most successful means of empowering rural communities; but the image of some bloated fool gloating over the carcass of a beautiful animal just doesn't cut it any more. It's almost an insult to the animal ... at times embarassing to look at. Sorry ... but that's the way I see it.

I'm way past my prime but I at least try to maintain a little dignity when being photographed with an animal I've shot. After all, we're both noble species, and should always be represented as such.

Plus, the idea that bigger is better doesn't cut it either. A good representative example of a sustainably hunted species should be just fine for anyone. Period.

We are our biggest enemies.

So what we need is fewer trophy hunters and more (egad!) environmentalists who are bold enough to cross-over into our world.
I've got a lot more to say about this but that's a start.

Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion...my ears are open to hear more...go for it!

And I think trophy hunting is the answer, because that's always been man's nature. And it makes sense to me on conservation basis.
For the decline maybe, the greed of African governments to constantly raise price on everything will do Safaris in eventually.
Recruitments will be there as long as it is affordable to middle classes.
I'm pretty sure I missed some things, but I see it that way in nutshell

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
And I think trophy hunting is the answer, because that's always been man's nature. And it makes sense to me on conservation basis.
For the decline maybe, the greed of African governments to constantly raise price on everything will do Safaris in eventually.
Recruitments will be there as long as it is affordable to middle classes.
I'm pretty sure I missed some things, but I see it that way in nutshell

Much appreciated

We must present ourselves as more than " trophy collectors" with bare spots on our gameroom walls that need filling.

My wife describes our African hunts to her non-hunting friends thusly: " We went to Africa , in part, to help feed and clothe the needy. We took several duffels of shoes and clothing. And a rifle."

We did the same. It was incredibly rewarding to see the expression of those you provided the goods to. The entire experience was far more than the hunt. I had no idea of what I was to observe. I feel blessed to have been on a safari.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by joester:
We must present ourselves as more than " trophy collectors" with bare spots on our gameroom walls that need filling.

My wife describes our African hunts to her non-hunting friends thusly: " We went to Africa , in part, to help feed and clothe the needy. We took several duffels of shoes and clothing. And a rifle."

http://www.africanindaba.co.za...canIndabaVol10-1.pdf


I thought this was an extremely interesting article. Ethiopian's increase in license fees resulted in fewer hunters, but the direct income from hunting remained the same. Ethiopia does not use trophy fees, you buy your licenses before the hunt.



African Indaba e-Newsletter Volume 10, Number 1 Page 16

Number of International Hunters Drops in Ethiopia

Rolf D. Baldus

Ethiopia is known for its small but interesting – and also highly priced – hunting industry. The hunting season runs from July to June, which is possible, as the rainy seasons differ in the different parts of the country. A number of species or subspecies can only be hunted in Ethiopia, including some true rarities such as the Beisa Oryx, the Northern Gerenuk and Soemmering’s Gazelle.
Since the reopening of hunting in 1997, there have never been more than 53 hunters visiting the country per year. Two years ago the Ethiopian Wildlife Conservation Authority raised the license prices two-fold, and for its flagship species, the Mountain Nyala, threefold (from 5,000 to 15,000 USD). In addition some new fees were introduced, among them a Conservation Fee of 100 USD per hunting day.
In the last season, only 39 hunters have visited Ethiopia, which is a drop of around 25 percent over the pre-price-increase seasons. In any other industry this would be regarded as disastrous, but in this particular case, the price increases have ensured that the direct income from hunting remains the same. Indirect income, such as air charters, the general tourism-spend of hunters, and hotel fees all fell, but this does not appear in the hunting statistics.
Experts believe that there is room for a considerable increase in sustainable trophy hunting, but the present rigid and over-administrated system prevents it.
Approximately 400 to 500 animals are harvested annually in Ethiopia by visiting hunters; a number that is much smaller than in other African countries. In addition 150 game animals are harvested by legal resident hunters. When compared to the very large illegal take-off, the official hunting harvest is insignificant. The potential income that trophy hunting could generate for conservation and local livelihoods is still to be fully exploited.

So long as quotas result in sustainable or expanding game populations I believe the choice should be left to the hunter. Concurrently, I felt great watching the locals divide my elephant, delivering Cape buffalo meat to a couple of tiny villages, and hunting last year on a cull hunt for meat consumption alone.

This is a subject deserving thoughtful consideration by all hunters. There already are numerous examples of hunter generosity and financial support of conservation.

Thanks folks your replies have me very encouraged

Roland

Trophy hunting in Africa is accomplished by many with planning and saving and with disposable funds.

Some hunters have more funds at there disposal than others. Therefore you will see some hunters planning a safari every year and maybe some hunters planning more than 1 safari in a given year. While other have to save and plan for a greater duration of time to be able to go.

Many things will come in to play for the working hunter. Vacation ~ Funds for safari ~ Hunting location ~ Trophy animals wanting to go after. These plus others will have to come together to make a safari possible.

In talking with a few of my African PH friends, every year is a tight year for them and they always have a few openings that they would like to fill. However, when you look at the number of PH's in South Africa and the number of hunters for the country. Not every PH will have a hunter this year, while some PH's will have numerous hunters.

What African hunters that i know, what they would like on a safari is a chance at a nice trophy and a good time.

what sets potential new clients off is the steps it takes to get into the various countries. Issues with a few bad apples, that has many saying they do not want to take the risk in going.

Also then some hunters return after going on a specific #1 trophy animal and being repeatedly promised that they would have a chance to get one, and then they never seeing one. When these hunters return and tell their friends it spread like a wild fire.

Also when a hunter has a positive safari experience, while some parties offer positive reply's, some others look at a pictures and go for the gusto and look for ways to pick the experience apart. For some that the nail that ends the safari experience for the initial hunter.

Your candid thoughts are much appreciated Bwana....thanks for taking the time to respond

Roland

I think over population of humans in Africa is one of the greatest threats to continued hunting. The more people the less land for animals/hunting, more poaching etc.

I've been on several hunts in Africa where the PH has mentioned areas that he hunted in the past that is now devoid of all game due to people moving into the area. Just look at what happened to all the farms in Zim that previously were great hunting destinations.

That combined with the continued increases in the cost of hunting Africa will definately have an adverse impact upon the middle class hunters.

Unfortunately, I'm one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
I think over population of humans in Africa is one of the greatest threats to continued hunting. The more people the less land for animals/hunting, more poaching etc.

I've been on several hunts in Africa where the PH has mentioned areas that he hunted in the past that is now devoid of all game due to people moving into the area. Just look at what happened to all the farms in Zim that previously were great hunting destinations.

That combined with the continued increases in the cost of hunting Africa will definately have an adverse impact upon the middle class hunters.

Unfortunately, I'm one of them.

You know Tom...I never considered the rise in population and it's encroachment of once vast wild open lands....including the effects of rampant poaching.

Thanks for adding your comments

Roland

Late-Bloomer,

I have to wonder "where you've been", or if you've "been very long", if you've never observed, nor considered the rise in population and it's encroachment... as a factor in game habitat and it's impact on hunting...!

Not meant to be a slam, but if that's never occurred to you previously, welcome to the world...

Good hunting,

I'm firmly in the "Glass is half empty" camp on most things like this. On the other hand I have recently read some older books on African hunting. The drum beat has been that hunting in African is trending down or headed to an end for at least the last 100 years. Some of that pessimism has been spot on but some of it has not. In fact I would say that for the non-wealthy hunter today and maybe for some time from now African hunting is and may stay very good.

Africa is huge and as one place closes many times another opens. I think there will be less hunters but that may be an advantage to those that continue to hunt. I think that if you really have the will and are willing to put up the the aggravation of traveling with fire arms etc there should be good hunting for a long time.

quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
Late-Bloomer,

I have to wonder "where you've been", or if you've "been very long", if you've never observed, nor considered the rise in population and it's encroachment... as a factor in game habitat and it's impact on hunting...!

Not meant to be a slam, but if that's never occurred to you previously, welcome to the world...

Good hunting,

My reply to him was in the context of my thread...it wasn't one of the things I considered written at the time...My answer was basically it makes sense to me now you mentioned it...

Not taking your remarks as a slam...but qualifying my response to him.

Good hunting

quote:

Originally posted by els:
I'm firmly in the "Glass is half empty" camp on most things like this. On the other hand I have recently read some older books on African hunting. The drum beat has been that hunting in African is trending down or headed to an end for at least the last 100 years. Some of that pessimism has been spot on but some of it has not. In fact I would say that for the non-wealthy hunter today and maybe for some time from now African hunting is and may stay very good.

Africa is huge and as one place closes many times another opens. I think there will be less hunters but that may be an advantage to those that continue to hunt. I think that if you really have the will and are willing to put up the the aggravation of traveling with fire arms etc there should be good hunting for a long time.

Good stuff Eels much appreciated!

I think there are many factors beyond our control. The black government's continuous greed for instant gratification. they are all kleptocracies, stealing everything they can get.Hence the high fees beyond reason.
they have no concept of money. The poaching is rampant,without the game, there is no hunting. On our end, people are having children later in life and between dance lessons and sports they don't have the money or the inclanation( it also effects shooting sports and golf). Many hunters are average people with average income who save to be able to go. Without the game and the African countries being on side, even the wealthy can't go. Just some thoughts.

Population is one of the biggest things.

This is going to get political, but ...

The average bush african lives a life not very different from how he lived it 400 years ago ...

Cattle are his wealth - not good cattle - anything with horns is an addition. He has to have many children .... his sons will ensure a fairly safe retirement, and he can sell his daughters (bride-price / lobola) for cattle.

To do this he needs to have many children, he needs to have lots of cattle .... they need more land.

Western aid coming in seems to concentrate in the hands of the few in government who have degrees from the US, Patrice Lumumba University and London School of Economics. And it disappears into building mansions, revitalising cities, Swiss bank accounts.

The bush guy sees very little - hence the 400 year old outlook.

So far African hunting has astounded me by still being available into the 21st century .... God alone knows how long it will last ...

I hope forever. I fear not much longer ....

I don't think there is a decline of actually people going hunting.

If we look back, we might find that there are more people going to Africa to hunt than say 20 or 30 years ago.

This increase in demand has also brought about some undesirables into the equation, sadly, championed by the likes of SCI with their glorifying trophy size.

Remember how the "canned" lions hunts reports started?

By someone asking for big maned lions to be available for immediate shooting for some clients who could not care less how much it cost.

The rest, as the story goes, is history.

People who go on safari with a shopping list are likely to be disappointed - unless they pick one of the specialized crooks who look for captured animals and then sell them as wild ones.

Luckily, the client base for those is relatively small, as I doubt many of us would pay $100,000 for a pet buffalo.

The majority of hunters just like to go and enjoy being out, enjoying safari life.

The size of the animals they shoot is of secondary importance.

quote:

Originally posted by Bren7X64:
Population is one of the biggest things.

This is going to get political, but ...

The average bush african lives a life not very different from how he lived it 400 years ago ...

Cattle are his wealth - not good cattle - anything with horns is an addition. He has to have many children .... his sons will ensure a fairly safe retirement, and he can sell his daughters (bride-price / lobola) for cattle.

To do this he needs to have many children, he needs to have lots of cattle .... they need more land.

Western aid coming in seems to concentrate in the hands of the few in government who have degrees from the US, Patrice Lumumba University and London School of Economics. And it disappears into building mansions, revitalising cities, Swiss bank accounts.

The bush guy sees very little - hence the 400 year old outlook.

So far African hunting has astounded me by still being available into the 21st century .... God alone knows how long it will last ...

I hope forever. I fear not much longer ....

So very true!

In comparison to the emerging widespread modern outlook that the urban ecological wasteland is the preferred habitat for humankind, there's a lot to be said for the 400 year old outlook.

It may not be as appealing as the 4,000 year old outlook (my own personal world-view), but it's better in many ways than where we're headed.

Much appreciated gents....been only once to Namibia for plainsgame I long to get back to visit a country like Zimbabwe for Cape Buff and experience more of the open wilds and all these years I come here to learn and try to understand the overall/ever-changing plight of Africa and all the variety of issues she faces for her and her people and her beautiful wildlife that I truly enjoy!

Thanks again!

Roland

quote:

Originally posted by els:
I'm firmly in the "Glass is half empty" camp on most things like this. On the other hand I have recently read some older books on African hunting. The drum beat has been that hunting in African is trending down or headed to an end for at least the last 100 years. Some of that pessimism has been spot on but some of it has not. In fact I would say that for the non-wealthy hunter today and maybe for some time from now African hunting is and may stay very good.

Africa is huge and as one place closes many times another opens. I think there will be less hunters but that may be an advantage to those that continue to hunt. I think that if you really have the will and are willing to put up the the aggravation of traveling with fire arms etc there should be good hunting for a long time.

By God Els. Excellent comment

In the 1950 and 60's my father hunted in Kenya, Belgian Congo, CAR, and Tanganyika in hunting areas that no longer exist. I began hunting in the late 1980's in RSA, Zimbabwe, and Tanzania in areas that no longer exist. I have seen national park lands that were once open to hunting basically disappear. Today, much of the hunting in RSA is farm hunting. Many once productive areas in Zimbabwe are gone. Tanzania is not the place it once was.

As central Africa became more unstable during the 1960's hunting shifted south to more productive, welcoming areas. But what I see happening now is hunting areas simply disappearing all together and new, productive areas are not opening. Probably the only exception is Namibia - thank God for the German influence there. There is a little sense left in the country.

The style of hunting is changing. Farm hunting is sustainable and for many, that is more than enough. Until governments realize that hunting is just as important as Chinese mining and lumbering, access to parkland animals will diminish.

The ever changing face of Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:

Things of concern to me are...


*Recruitment of new hunters...is there a serious decline ahead of us in the amount of American safari sport-hunters?...that the market would fall-out and there would be much less African Outfitters and PH's?

Thanks much appreciated

Roland

Cant see if that is a problem as every time I come from Aus I watch the DELTA and SAA flights come in from the USA with over sixty hunters a day, plus from all the other Air lines would easily make it over one hundred hunters per day through Johannesburg.
Also of note is the amount of young hunters coming with their folks.

It's going to be just like it is here in the USA IMO. Hunting is heading in the direction of being only for the well healed. License sales are on a downward trend here in the US and since the libtards in control are content on "Robin Hooding" our azzzes to death I don't see it getting any better. There will always be those who can afford it, but the numbers will continue to dwindle.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
It's going to be just like it is here in the USA IMO. Hunting is heading in the direction of being only for the well healed. License sales are on a downward trend here in the US and since the libtards in control are content on "Robin Hooding" our azzzes to death I don't see it getting any better. There will always be those who can afford it, but the numbers will continue to dwindle.

I love the safari experience but it's getting harder to afford. Everytime prices go up we lose another level of hunters. This Jan my wife and I are going to Tanzania for 3 weeks but we are not hunting. We are doing an unguided self drive safari. Cost is about $9000 plus airfare

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
I think over population of humans in Africa is one of the greatest threats to continued hunting. The more people the less land for animals/hunting, more poaching etc.

I have to disagree with this statement, at least in Namibia where I've hunted. According to the most recent UNICEF survey done in 2011, the population of Namibia was 2.3 million that year. The number of live births was only 60,000, and the number of people infected with HIV/AIDS was over 190,000 or more than triple the number of births. The official AIDS incident rate is stated as 13.4% for adults, but in talking with people who have lived there all of their lives, it's probably closer to 25% or one of every 4 adults is infected with AIDS.With very strict immigration policies, Namibia's population is slowly contracting, not growing.

According to Wikipedia, the population of Namibia is still growing. It lists live births per year (average from 2005 to 2010) as approx. 60,000, and deaths per year (from ALL causes, I presume) is 19,000, for a net gain of 41,000 per year. Even if there are 190,000 people there infected with HIV, as the 2011 UNICEF survey says, that does not mean that there are that many dying every year.