I just finished the movie Mark Sullivan's DEATH BY THE TON.
Having never been hunting in Africa
Let me just first say the hunting is awesome I am looking forward to the day of a African hunting trip of my own.
I do have a couple of questions about what took place in the show.
Is it the norm for the guide to shoot your animal too?
In the movie the client would pull the trigger and the guide would shortly afterwards as well.
If I was to spend that kind of money I’m not sure I would appreciate the guide shooting my game .I am curious about this.
Secondly is it normal for the guide to offer up his own rifles to the client for the hunt, I think that’s what I heard on the movie.
And I found Mark the guide very philosophical with his recollection of the shot and hunt he must be an interesting fellow.
I found this to be one of the best hunting videos I have ever watched. I want to hunt Cape Buffalo so bad I can taste it, just a few more short years and I will be.

You will find that Sullivan is not thought of real highly by many hunters and PHs. Mark is certainly made of stone (perhaps his head too) and there is no doubt that he can shoot well under pressure and market himself well. The question is, how ethical is it to allow an animal to suffer so that you can provoke a charge and how ethical is it to shoot what your client is paying to hunt under "artificial" circumstances.

Best of luck to you on your cape buff dreams. I would say there are much better sources of inspiration than Sullivan but at least he got you interested!

Death by the Ton is actually one of the less offensive videos of Sullivan's. I think there is only one charge in it by a hippo at the end, unlike all of the other videos where every other hunt features a charge. He does have stones, I will give him that, but I find his videos a lot more palatable with the volume turned off...... There are PHs that have gone entire careers with less charges than MS has in one video.......explain that to me......

I agree. Marks footage is interesting, but I don't care much for his personality, and I dont' think provoking the charge like he does is neccessary. But then again I've never hunted Africa. But I have become obsessed with it (cape buff primarily). I started a savings account and started doing my home-work. When I make it to the dark continent if someone else shoots my buffalo I'll probably use them for Hyena bait the following night! I live on a very meager salary and will probably only get to do this once!

Mark Sullivan is a controversial character, for sure! In addition to that, he is not well respected among most serious African hunters, or PHs who have seen his antics. There are real reasons for this take on MS, but he sells, no question, both on Safaris, and on his over priced films, "giving the buffalo the choice how he wants to die!"

That being said, he is probably as good Cape Buffalo PH as you will find in Africa today. He always seems to produce fine trophy animals for his clients, with a number, that I'm aware of, that have gone into the 48-50 inch class. He has a very good understanding of double rifles, and Cape Buffalo (both my passions) and the double's practical use in the field.

He is an American, who, I understand, has, or used to have, a financial consultant service in Phoenix, Az. There have been many rumors of some shady dealings in Tanzania with his name mentioned, in days gone by, but like all rumors, they may simply be the result of professional jealousy, because of his apparent success, in the Safari/film business.

Any well known PH of long standing, in Africa, will tell you the actual number of un-provoked charges, by Cape Buffalo, in Africa, are very rare. Some have taken hundreds, and even thousands of Cape Buffalo, without even one charge! This seems a little suspect when MS gets an average of 3 to 5 in every film, but the charges, provoked or not, are his shtick! In all those cases he is the one putting the bull down on film, not the client, who is paying the bill. Of course that may be by prior arrangement with the client, but I doubt it.

MS does have a loyal following of repeat clients, so either they are satisfied, with him shooting a lot of their game, or just like being on film! Personally, I'd rather shoot my own Buffalo, but maybe that is out of date today, considering his popularity on his "LOOK AT ME" films! He gets a fair coin for his Safaris, and for his films, and books, so how can one argue with success?

He definitely gets into some big buff on a regular basis. You can't deny that. You will notice that he doesn't pull that crap on elephant regularly. In fact, one of my favorite Sullivan stories is when he contacted Buzz Charlton to guide him for elephant. The hunt did not take place and I do not not why but found it interesting nonetheless.

quote:

He always seems to produce fine trophy animals for his clients, with a number, that I'm aware of, that have gone into the 48-50 inch class. He has a very good understanding of double rifles, and Cape Buffalo (both my passions) and the double's practical use in the field.

I think ANY hunter can produce such results if he could shoot over 20 buffalo - and not count them on his license, and leave them to rut in the bush - just to be able to video a charge.

This is story I heard in Tanzania.

He sub-let an area to shoot a couple of buffalo. He went in there with his crew, claimed to have shot his two buffalo and left.

The owners of the concession then found over 20 buffalo carcasses left behind.

All have died in thick bush or high grass!

That, my friends, is the ultimate crime against hunting, just to satisfy his ego.

Thanks Guys for the replies.
I have wanted to hunt Capes since I was a kid, and for some reason, I have never watched a movie of it, I just read books and magazine articles.
I agree with xm15e2m4 I would be really pissed if the guide shoots my animal for no reason.
I have been preparing for years to hunt over there, and was hopeing that what I saw on the movie wasn’t what takes place over there as a whole in the industry with shooting clients animals.

Judging from Mark Sullivan’s video, I agree that he is a good PH and gets great trophies for his clients. However, I fail to understand his clients, how can they allow him to shoot their trophies, what is the fun for them?

I have hunted Cape Buff with three different very good DG PHs, all of them have taken hundreds of Buffalos with their clients. The first thing that I discuss with my PHs is until and unless it is a life-threatening situation, I don’t want them to fire their rifle on the hunt and they have always respected my wish. To date I have only shot six buffalos but none of my PHs fired any bullet on them, they are all 100% mine.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

He always seems to produce fine trophy animals for his clients, with a number, that I'm aware of, that have gone into the 48-50 inch class. He has a very good understanding of double rifles, and Cape Buffalo (both my passions) and the double's practical use in the field.

I think ANY hunter can produce such results if he could shoot over 20 buffalo - and not count them on his license, and leave them to rut in the bush - just to be able to video a charge.

This is story I heard in Tanzania.

He sub-let an area to shoot a couple of buffalo. He went in there with his crew, claimed to have shot his two buffalo and left.

The owners of the concession then found over 20 buffalo carcasses left behind.

All have died in thick bush or high grass!

That, my friends, is the ultimate crime against hunting, just to satisfy his ego.

We've heard this rumour every time Sullivan comes up.

Saeed,

Any facts to add to the "story", such as the name of the concession, which year, whom the concession owner was, ... etc ?

I know the concession and I know the name of the man he had the punch up with about this.

But, he obviously does not want this to be made public.

Many people in Tanzania know it too, and are unwilling to talk about it.

It is one of those things where many think these facts might reflect badly on us as hunters and hunting in general.

I don't think so.

It is characters like Mark Sullivan who give hunting a bad name.

The Sullivan Saga will rage on forever. He is a controversial figure, but nonetheless has a loyal band of clients!

To get back to the original question of your PH shooting your buffalo. Generally we don't, we understand exactly what the hunt means to you. There are however many occassions when a client, in the final stages of the stalk, will ask you to shoot with him. Again, generally we don't, but depending on the situations we can get into, we decide if it is a good thing or not. A good first shot will always show itself.

IMO he is a @^#%$*@Q&#%(*boob or to quote mark twain - he should be under the ground inspiring the roses

Quigley: try the DVDs Boddington on Buffalo and Boddington on Buffalo 2 if you are interested in Cape buffalo hunting as well as general safari advice and information on the animal.

He is very succesfull in selling what people wants to watch. Unfortunately human nature is of such that we enjoy watching when something bad is happening either to human or animal, like horor movies.

You have to watch his stuff not everything but he is succefull in what he is picturing. People love boxing, people love to watch Tyson bite off somebodys else ear so they watch and enjoy as the buffalo as to decide how it wants to end his life run or charge ?

He may not have the best hunting ethics but has the selling technique to the tea.

If you watch closely I remember that one of the buffalo shot while standing with the herd is NOT the same buffalo that they finish off and pose with a few minutes later. I'll try to watch the CD again and post which buff i'm talking about to see if yall agree.

I hunted buff this year with Kevin (Doctari)Robertson in Mozambique. Kevin has been at it 22 years. He told me that in that time he had received just one charge. He said that if you are being frequently charged, you're doing something wrong.
Regarding the PH shooting, my approach is that you have hired a professional and should trust him to do what is necessary for safety and ethical hunting. My instruction to Kevin was to shoot if he thought it necessary. The safety of the trackers is a real consideration. They are up front and defenseless. We encountered my buff at 7 yards. Yes, seven. I hammered him in the front shoulder with my 458 Lott and he showed no response. Kevin let go with his 505 Gibbs. The buff had his blood up, and it took 3 with the Lott and 3 with the Gibbs to get him down. Was I OK with Kevin shooting? You betcha, Red Rider!

Quigly,

Watch the Cd for Glen Catts 41 inch Buff. Its the 8th segment and see if you agree that we are seeing 2 different buffalo. The one he clearly shoots has horns that point above the head and the one he finds and poses with horn tips point to the eyes.

Ive never hunted buffalo before, but they sure seem like two different animals to me. If I knew how to do a screen capture i'd post for everyone to view.

FREE

Click the above link, go to the bottom of the page to download the freeware, Printscreen. Easy to download and easy to use.

I have only seen one of Mark's videos, his first I think, Black Death. I think that he is not dumb by any means, and and knows that there is a market for exciting hunting videos, and knows when to draw the line with stunts on dangerous game that would be suicidal. I think he was the first to show a buff charge on a hunting video/dvd if I am not mistaken. If the rumour is true that he wounded loads of buff in Tanzania, then that is disgraceful and he should be shunned as that is definitely not on, but one should always be innocent until proven guilty.

It is interesting that most of his charges involve buff from what I have seen. One question I would like to ask him is, surely one would expect to get a few charges from lion, leopard or ellies too on occasion under similar circumstances (possibly wounded) especially if no follow-up time is given? That would definately be a challenge and make a great video but unethical. How about buff in thick bush, (I am sure there are areas of thick bush where he hunts too I would think) might not see much on video, (I would also hate to be the cameraman on such incidents), but would be pretty exciting, but maybe also extremely dangerous? I can imagine that approaching a downed (even mortally wounded) buff downwind and not from behind is probably asking for trouble, and likely to induce a charge, which I am sure he was looking for on many occasions, but in open terrain, you probably stand a fair chance if you are up to the task.

I think that statistics and probability will eventually catch up with you though when you play games like that, and am sure that either one of his clients or he himself will get hurt one day if he keeps playing with fate. He isdefinitely a good shot and has nerves of steel, as others have suggested, but all it takes is a bit of bad luck and things could get very ugly indeed. As to adding and insurance shot just after the client shoots, that would be up to the client, but I think that the PH should only shoot if it is necessary, otherwise it would feel like the animal was not yours as such.

Nzou, that's one of the main points besides the primary ethical one...you won't see him doing much of what you say in heavy cover like the jess of Zim or with a herd of cow ele or wounded lion/leopard in cover for example. Mark is crazy but crazy like a fox. He does this in areas where he can have the most control of the outcome (naturally).

I would love to see him hunt buff in the kind of stuff we find them in, in Zim. I wonder if he would brazenly crawl into some jesse and let the buffalo "decide how he is going to die"? He would surely get the occasional horn up the a$$ from his gut shot animals. Charges in the jesse are from 5, 7, maybe 10 FEET, not 20 or 30 yards like he shows in the videos. Been there, done that, got tee shirt to prove it. A buffalo charge usually signals that something went wrong.

Geronimo

Geronimo

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
Quigley: try the DVDs Boddington on Buffalo and Boddington on Buffalo 2 if you are interested in Cape buffalo hunting as well as general safari advice and information on the animal.

Thank you I will look it up.

well, bottomline is i like the movies. very entertaining. the way i see it is like this.
1) mark is obviously pursuing cape buff in a way no other ph's have the cohones to do so. i'm sure this creates much professional envy.
2) mark also is making more money than about any other ph. i'm sure this is not helping on the side of any professional jealousy.
3) i've called the man and talked to him on several occasions and he seems quite genuine and a likeable guy. knows his rifles.
4) don't know about the accusations of gutshooting but i've seen enough slander b/c of professional jealousy and unless there's much more to the accusations they don't hold with me. if proven so, then that's a different story.
5) mark has pretty much blown away many of the common myths of some pretty big name gun writers and columnists by exposing the whole " how to stop a charge issue." and makes some pretty irrefutable points imho. i think it makes many very uncomfortable to know they have to be good enough or they would die in a real charge situation. that truth either motivates you and challenges you or it scares you to criticism. i doubt anyone either working for him or that books a hunt doesn't know what he's out for and will provide you, in fact, that's why many of us would book a hunt with him.
6) the charges are no real secret to me. in fact, 99% of the ph's i've ever contacted or talked to at sci conventions over the years don't follow up a shot cape buff, gut shot or not. they hang back and wait..........which imho is no more humane and probably less so than the way mark hunts. following up the way he does makes sense to me and his theory on dangerous game hunting resonates with alot of hunters. i don't do it to be totally safe, the same way i have no desire to hunt brown bear from over 50 yards or so. preferably bowhunting or a pistol, but you get the point.



and.........bottomline, the guy is good and if there's one guy i want backing me up on a charge is sure as heck someone who's done it more than once. perhaps, if you've only been charged once you're not doing something right? perhaps?

bottomline, hunt the way you want and if you enjoy the vids, they're worth every penny and i encourage you to enjoy them.

Trademark, I don't really care to address each of your sub-points but I have to say that they are patently ridiculous. If you think there are PHs that are jealous of Sullivan's reputation you don't know many PHs.

I can't believe you said that if you have only been charged once that you might be doing something wrong...that's just retarded.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark: perhaps, if you've only been charged once you're not doing something right?

I would say the opposite holds true. The bottom line is that he is going to get someone hurt by inducing unneccesary charges and that isn't okay at all.

quote:

A buffalo charge usually signals that something went wrong.

Please see my previous post. In my case, the buffalo was broadside and began to run just as I fired, thereby gut shooting him. He ran straight for the jesse. We all knew this was not going to be a fun day.

Geronimo

TRADEMARK, with all due respect, and with no desire to provoke a urinating contest, I have to say Mark is full of it. There is no way anyone can get charged as many times as he does unless: 1)he is a terrible shot- which we know he isnt; or,2) failing that, he deliberately wounds animals to provoke a charge. I am talking about buff, now.
Hippo are another matter. Get between a hippo and water, and he will do his best to pulverize you, no wounding needed.
I have no problem with provoking a charge from an unwounded animal, its sporting, I think; but I DO have an ENORMOUS problem with deliberately wounding a buff to provoke a charge for the camera. And I dont personally care for his self aggrandizement and chest thumping, but thats forgivable.
HOWEVER, if I had to follow a wounded buff, I agree I would love to have Mark with me rather than any gunwriter!

I'm not convinced there is deliberate wounding. He gets charges because he always approaches from the front, everybody else approaches from behind. Whether a PH or client, why waste time hating the guy. Many, many American hunters with zero exposure to DG see his stuff and want to hunt DG. There has always been someone doing something controversial for the last 100 years, especially at the start of this thing we love. Most of the disagreeable shit I see in his vids are done by the client, with the exception of him shooting too soon or at all. But hunters have gone with him and asked he not shoot and he respects their wishes, to the point until any PH would follow.

most of the PH's i have talked to in africa could count on one hand the number of times they have been charged in career's of 5-10 years. it seems that Mark Sullivan can count on 1 hand the number of times he has been charged each season. something is definitely out of whack.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
well, bottomline is i like the movies. very entertaining. the way i see it is like this.
1) mark is obviously pursuing cape buff in a way no other ph's have the cohones to do so. i'm sure this creates much professional envy.
2) mark also is making more money than about any other ph. i'm sure this is not helping on the side of any professional jealousy.
3) i've called the man and talked to him on several occasions and he seems quite genuine and a likeable guy. knows his rifles.
4) don't know about the accusations of gutshooting but i've seen enough slander b/c of professional jealousy and unless there's much more to the accusations they don't hold with me. if proven so, then that's a different story.
5) mark has pretty much blown away many of the common myths of some pretty big name gun writers and columnists by exposing the whole " how to stop a charge issue." and makes some pretty irrefutable points imho. i think it makes many very uncomfortable to know they have to be good enough or they would die in a real charge situation. that truth either motivates you and challenges you or it scares you to criticism. i doubt anyone either working for him or that books a hunt doesn't know what he's out for and will provide you, in fact, that's why many of us would book a hunt with him.
6) the charges are no real secret to me. in fact, 99% of the ph's i've ever contacted or talked to at sci conventions over the years don't follow up a shot cape buff, gut shot or not. they hang back and wait..........which imho is no more humane and probably less so than the way mark hunts. following up the way he does makes sense to me and his theory on dangerous game hunting resonates with alot of hunters. i don't do it to be totally safe, the same way i have no desire to hunt brown bear from over 50 yards or so. preferably bowhunting or a pistol, but you get the point.



and.........bottomline, the guy is good and if there's one guy i want backing me up on a charge is sure as heck someone who's done it more than once. perhaps, if you've only been charged once you're not doing something right? perhaps?

bottomline, hunt the way you want and if you enjoy the vids, they're worth every penny and i encourage you to enjoy them.

1. He sure is pursuing cape buffalo in ways REAL PH won't. He is only doing it because he has found total greenies who believe all the bullshit he cranks out, and he ends up shooting their animals too! I just wonder what sort of hunters they REALLY are?!

2. He sure makes more money than probably most of the REAL PH hunting in Africa. Again, he is using the "big boy, small boy" mentality.

"Come over here little kid, I will take you on a dangeous African buffalo hunt, and I will save your butt by shooting it while it charges us using my 600 Nitro Express double rifle, and you can pay me $50,000, and go home and brag to all your friend how you survived a dangerous buffalo charge! It will make a man out of you. Just tell them we let the buffalo "decide how he wants to die".

3. He might knows his rifles, but he knows shit about ethical hunting.

4. I have been hunting buffalo since 1982, have shot well over a 100, and talked to PH who have been at it for many years - longest one 37, shortest one 15 - and NONE of them had had any of the buffalo they shot ever charge them. Some have been charged by sick cows found in the bush, but, again, NONE has been charged by any of the buffalo they have shot. And I bet they have shot an awful lot more than our hero has.

5. What myth is there in showing that one can stop a charging buffalo by shooting it in the head? The real PH does not have to prove to a camera how big his balls are by making the animal suffer to feed his own ego. As long as you see the animal alive, you keep shooting. I KNOW that animal has absolutely no chance of getting to me if I can see him lying down and I have a loaded rifle in my hand. I don't have to prove to an audience how big my balls are by making sure the animal I shoot has to suffer. Remember, that poor animal had no fight with me. He did not choose how he wants to die. I decided he should die, and I better do it in the quickest and most human way.

6. 99% of wounded animals, any animal, would try their best to run away from you if they can. It is your duty as a hunter to make sure you put an end to the suffering of that animal as long as you see he is alive. Mark never had the guts to follow the buffalo he wounds into ANY sort of bush, let alone thick bush in which most of us hunt buffalo. Remember what I mentioned above, those are the ones found by the concession holders after he had left.

Bottom line is the guy is living in his own twighlight zone. And he lives on the belief of so many wanabe "hunters" who wish to be at the receiving end of a set up charge. I know some PH who would love to see Mark and his clients do their Hollywood act on their concessions. In thick bush and long grass.

THAT is a video I would love to see.

Saeed, tell us how you really feel and quit holding back. This stuff always riles you up. You could have saved a lot of typing by just repeating my words..."that's just retarded".

Mark Sullivan is the Hollywood equivelant to real life.

You know the sort. One guy gets shot with some handgun and he flies back 10 feet high and lands 10 yards back!

Lots of people believe that too.

I just would have imagined hunters would have more sense than to believe all this bullshit.

May be some are still living in cuckoo land!

quote:

5. What myth is there in showing that one can stop a charging buffalo by shooting it in the head? The real PH does not have to prove to a camera how big his balls are by making the animal suffer to feed his own ego. As long as you see the animal alive, you keep shooting. I KNOW that animal has absolutely no chance of getting to me if I can see him lying down and I have a loaded rifle in my hand. I don't have to prove to an audience how big my balls are by making sure the animal I shoot has to suffer. Remember, that poor animal had no fight with me. He did not choose how he wants to die. I decided he should die, and I better do it in the quickest and most human way.

+1!

That is EXACTLY how I see it.

quote:

In thick bush and long grass.

THAT is a video I would love to see.

Another +1

Cheers,
Canuck

I've seen six of Mark Sullivan's DVDs. I'll say this for Sullivan, he doesn't lack for courage and he is a good shot with the double rifle.

Having said that, I personally would not choose him as my PH.

The "let the buffalo choose how it is going to die" thing makes little sense to me. The buffalo in the DVDs are generally faced off by Mark and his client after having taken one or more shots already. I think a better way to say it would be "let the buffalo choose how it will be finished off", that is let it charge or run or stand there for the finishing off shot(s). Personally, I don't believe any delay whatsoever in the finishing shots is appropriate. I think as long as the animal is on its feet, I'm going to keep shooting. And then as soon as it's down, I'm going to apply the insurance shot immediately. But, I've only been to Africa once so that's just my 2 cents.

It seems every community has a Paris Hilton.....Ours makes movies with a double rifle instead of a night vision camera.

No friend of mine that's for sure.The guy should be arrested.

Saeed, i surely do appreciate your points and i don't by any means mean to say that tey're discounted in my mind. however, i still don't condemn someone until there's more solid proof on my end.

yukon -- your post illustrates you didn't really read my post. i never said other ph's are jealous of is "status or stature" or whatever it was you were pointing out. in short, my post essentially said it seems logical that a bunch of PH's that don't make a ton of money would/could be jealous of a rich american that comes over, gets a ph license, finds an angle and makes a TON of money in a relatively short period of time. that is all.


as far as the myth i'm talking about. about two years ago guns and ammo had an issue where they presented some shooting scenarios and then asked some writers and some hunting "big wigs" how they'd handle it. to a person they were all wrong on the buffalo charge as evidence by sullivan's footage. the myth is about where to place the shot on a charge and also, that you're gonna get a big enough gun to "shock" the buff on a shot to the chest. sullivan makes an extremely good case that that's just not gonna happen and to reliably stop the charge it's cns or you're not gonna reliably stop it. i've got several instances of charges on tape and with the exception of sullivan's, it's never been a situation i'd feel comfortable being in as a client. all the rest were mayhem and if not for a steep bank or two or a lucky clump of trees, the clients would've been smashed to bits. sullivan knows how to put a charge down and do it reliably, for that info i'm grateful. i've got 3 sons that will be accompanying me to africa/alaska or both in the next couple years and should a charge ever come about be it a cape buff or a brownie, it's nice to learn a .44 mag b/w the eyes is worth more than a .460 in the chest. better than figuring that out while being munched.


if it's ever proven that this guy really does these unethical practices then he's dirt in my book, but it's still useful info.

Indlovu -- good points and i do find it interesting that mark's latest vids really seem to shift to hippo charges than buff charges and it's not lost on me that the hippos didn't require any prior shots to charge. they're also pretty affordable to hunt, but i do agree with sullivan that shooting them in water is about as sporting as the proverbial fish in a barrel. thanks for the info and i appreciate the response, no pissing necessary.

No, I read your post and knew exactly what you meant...which is why I replied the way I did. I'll stand by what I said.

I don't know any PH that wants to be like Sullivan in any way. Most of the PHs I know are in Zim and they just don't tolerate that kind of thing. Sullivan would not survive that kind of filming in the Zambezi valley. There would be no sequel and I'm quite serious.