I 'd like to hear thoughts from PHs & Guides on REAL life back-up weapons for DG. I'm interested in actually situtations NOT ballistic theorys. I'm not refering too stopping a wounded animal fleeing. I asking about close and personal encounters.

Comments about some weapons that are more popular here in the states would be welcome too. ie. .450 marlin lever action, 12 ga. pump shotgun, and big bore handguns .44, .454, .480etc.

Boss Kongoni, I personally only use either my 470 or 500 double for any close and persoanly situations on all wounded animals, especially for lion, buffalo, elephant and hippo. I also have and do use a Benelli 12ga that has a pistol grip and 24" barrel that is semi auto and holds 6 shells for up close and personal encounters with wounded leopard. I prefer to use the Benelli for wounded leopard as it always happens so fast, that with the pistol grip I can unload without having to shoulder the gun. It has come in very handy several times and works like a charm. It is a very fast shooting gun and have not had any leopard get past it. I would only use this on leopard though, and everything else has to deal with the 470 or 500.

I thought Benelli's were recoil operated.

Adam - How did you load the shotgun?....I talked to a man that did some work in Griz country. They loaded the 1st, 1 or 2 w/steel shot(6 balls if I remember correctly) the slugs?

Will, Benelli is recoil loaded as far as I am aware of as well. There is plenty of recoil when holding a shotgun pistol grip style. This Benelli is a tactical shotgun and does also have a butt stock on it, But have shot it many times without it on my shoulder and have never had a problem with the the shells not being ejected and then loaded.

Boss Kongoni, I load all 6 of my shells with Federal 00 buck stell balls. I do not use slugs at all. The Benelli is one of if not the fastest shooting shotgun out there, and you can fire your rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger. I can shoot all six of my rounds under 2 seconds, that is how fast it is, and I am not a pro at shotguns. If a leopard takes all six rounds of 00 buck, we would have to put the pieces together! I also have night sights on it that glow, and a surfire flashlight under the barrel.

My PH, John Sharp carried an old, battered Mod70 Winnie for most hunts and when he means business, he has a lovely Rigby 470 NE. jorge

Benelli's Inertia Recoil Design

Cool!

I got beat up pretty good a few days ago on a thread in Big Bore about using a 12 gauge for followup on Brown Bears. I was called everything but a (Insert your own word here.)
You will be getting comments on how lousy the penetration of a 12 gauge is, and other assorted drivel.
My comment, If the brush is really thick, nothing beats a 12 gauge with 00 or 000 buck. I live in Brown Bear country and am around them all the time, that's what I carry in thick brush.
Contrary to popular opinion, 00 Buck will kill a Brown Bear dead at 20 feet or less. Believe me, it will.
I used to guide with an old guy named, Jack Lewis. He had three jobs his entire life. One was working in the Usabeli cool mines near Mc Kinley, the second was Commercial fishing in Cooks Inlet, the third was a Bear guide, Brownbear and Polar. His followup gun for Brown Bear was a 12 gauge Browning auto with oo buck. If it was good enough for Jack, its good enough for me.
I've been using a Remington 870 with a short bbl and a folding stock. I have a Benelli, and I might take Adams advice and try it.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
I got beat up pretty good a few days ago on a thread in Big Bore about using a 12 gauge for followup on Brown Bears. I was called everything but a (Insert your own word here.)
You will be getting comments on how lousy the penetration of a 12 gauge

TJ - Thank you!...That's why I posed this to the Guides & PHs, the one that have real experience vs. the Loading Table Gurus.

I wanted to hear about what works in the bush not what works in ballistic theroy.

The two PH's I've hunted with both used bolt-action rifles --- the first was a lousy hunter (really) but a superb shot with his 450 Watts which was bult on a pre-64 action. The 2nd was a superb hunter and a very good shot with his Sako 416 RemMag. Neither one had to fire a shot at any on my animals but they both checked their rifles when I checked mine.

TJ ---- shooting a leopard that, on average go about 120-140 pounds with buckshot is a lot different than trying the same thing on a brown bear. I'm not saying it can't be done but I doubt if it would be the first choice of someone who had other options.

Bill, Brian still has his 416, but is in the process of getting a 470 now. I can also mention that if Brian had the option of a 12 ga or 416 to follow a leopard, he would take the 12ga as he done many times when one was available to him.

TJ, Just from my experience with my Benelli, I would feel very comfortable going after a Brown Bear with it at close range. I do not think people really know what damage a 12ga Benelli can produce with 3-6 00 buck shells. At close range 1 00 buck will leave a hole the size of a soft ball. Maybe I have just had good experiences with my 12ga with leopard, but it must work, or I would not be hear talking about it! I like my 470 for everything, but when it comes to tall gras and thick brush I think the 12ga does better for me, but just my preference though and what I like to use.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
I 'd like to hear thoughts from PHs & Guides on REAL life back-up weapons for DG.

By "DG", I assume you mean elephant, rhino, hippo, cape buffalo, lion and leopard.

quote:

Comments about some weapons that are more popular here in the states would be welcome too. ie. .450 marlin lever action, 12 ga. pump shotgun, and big bore handguns .44, .454, .480etc.

As you have already read, there are some people who use a 12 gauge pump for backup on leopard. You may find one guy in all of Africa who uses a .450 Marlin for leopard. And some PH's like to carry a handgun in addition to their long gun for leopard backup.

However outside of 120 pound leopard, the cartridges you mention have no place for dealing with other DG.

Brian...the PH that Adam and I referred to is Brian van Blerk.

As fine a companion as you want to have in camp and in 16 days of hunting he never failed to get me in a great position for a shot and I never felt a breeze on the back of neck once. He ran a great camp, was always on top of the situation and was quick "to make a plan" when changes were needed. He tolerated my cigars, my lack of night vision and after he got over his initial shock I think he even grew to like my Lazzeroni with the black and green McMillan stock. He also allowed me to join him as we followed up my wounded leopard and the thrill I got making that final shot was only exceeded by the gratitude I felt for the trust he placed in me by allowing me to be there.

Let me also add that if you're ever in Vic Falls in a bar and there's a PH wearing Bermuda shorts and a tie-dyed t-shirt (who the women in the bar are eyeing) trying to explain Cricket to his client don't bet him you can drink a pint faster than he can....that's Brian and trust me on this.....you can't.

[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=8619&c=500&z=1"] [/url]

That's Brian and the rest of the crew after the excitement with my leopard died down.

There you go Boss:
Two expert opinions. One from Southern California and the other from Utah.

TJ....I was Chief of Weather for the Alaskan Air Command for several years back in the late 60's and got to meet many of the well-known guides who were active at the time (feels funny meeting some of their sons who are now guiding at SCI) and as I recall the back-up gun of choice was usually a 458 WinMag or a 375 H&H although I do recall one that used a 300 H&H. I'm sure there were some who used something else but I'd be very suprised if there is currently an active brown bear guide who would choose a shotgun over a big-bore rifle when hunting with a client.

I might add that I have a little bit of experience hunting brown bear having taken two personally and being present when another 6 or 7 were killed.

well Bill, Thank you for your service to our country!
I was also here in the 60s. I'm still here. I also knew several of the older guides, and worked with a couple of them. I Guided in the 60s and 70s. I didn't like it. I quit.
You need to reread the original post by Boss. The question was "on REAL life back-up weapons." He never mentioned "when hunting with a client." I didn't either.
There is a difference.

My carry rifle is bolt action .500 Jeffrey and it stops charges just fine as long as I do my bit by putting a good bullet in the right place. My choice of solid is Stewart mono solid. If I'm using a soft point (for Lion) I like the ones that Ken Stewart makes to my own design or my 2nd choice is Woodleigh SP.

As for wounded leopards - that's when I change it for a 12 gauge ......... but I don't personally like pumps or auto's as I'm always concerned they just might jam on me.(that's not a criticism of anyone it's just how I feel)......I use an old English E. Hellis & Son side by side with AAAs and I work on the principle that if you can't stop it with two barrels it's probably gonna be on top of you anyway. I also carry a handgun in the countries it's legal.

The PHs who work with us all use .458 Lotts with the exception of one guy who uses a .458 3 inch Stewart...... all use shotguns on wounded Leopards.

As far as clients are concerned, I'd rather see one pitch up with .375 H&H he can shoot well than a bigger calibre he can't......if he can shoot the bigger calibres well then whatever he or she likes......hell, at the end of the day it's their safari and their dollars who am I to dictate their choice of rifle or anything else.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
I got beat up pretty good a few days ago on a thread in Big Bore about using a 12 gauge for followup on Brown Bears. I was called everything but a (Insert your own word here.)
You will be getting comments on how lousy the penetration of a 12 gauge is, and other assorted drivel.
My comment, If the brush is really thick, nothing beats a 12 gauge with 00 or 000 buck. I live in Brown Bear country and am around them all the time, that's what I carry in thick brush.

Sounds like theory and bravado, nothing more.

Just a suggestion - Phil Shoemaker has a good article about grizzly bear rifles in the latest "Successful Hunter" by Wolfe Publishing. He has guided for bears for twenty years or more. Much of the article explains his thoughts and actual experiences on stopping rifles. Obviously grizzly bears are not African game but IIRC he writes about lever actions and some of the American calibers you asked about.

That same issue has an interesting article about testing bullet performance, penetration and expansion, that you might find applicable to thsi subject.

TJ.... The only reason I mentioned my service in Alaska was to give some indication that I had a wider level of experience hunting than might be garnered by living in "Southern Califonia".

Additionally, I thought your snide "thank you for your service" comment was an insult made twice as repugnant as your bad manners haven't the risk of a quick correction as if you had said it in person.

Well 500 grain in Utah, you can call it theory and bravado, I call it fact.
I realize this is the internet and anyone can say anything they want to with no proof.
Lets see some pics of the Brown Bears you have shot. Your the one calling Bullshit on this one, so you go first. I'll follow.
You guys down there in Utah got a lot of Brown Bears, 500? Or do you secretly guide for Brown Bears in Alaska in season? Come on, your holding out on us. You are actually a World Famous Bear Guide from Alaska, but your just bashful.
Come on, give us your real name!

Jim:
I've been asking around Kenai to see if anyone knows Phil Shoemaker. No one knows him. I think he lives on the Kejulik River on Becherof Lake in the summer. That's a guess, he may live there year around but I'd be courious how he gets power for a computer down there, as he did respond to the other thread. I've read some of his stories. I remember he did say he used #6 bird shot for Blackbear one time.
Maybe Phil can come on and tell us where he spends his winters?

I apologize Boss, for hijacking your thread, I knew it would happen.

500 - Respectfully, while I appreciate comments from folks that understand balistics and that are well read, on this subject I'm interested in real world experience.

While I didn't get specific, as TJ eluded to I wasn't inquiring about a firearm for a fleeing wounded animal. My interest is in "last -chance" senerios and storys of those that have lived it.

I would think that some PHs & guides(Bears storys have merit on this topic too) have carried big bore hanfguns and lever action carbines....What I'd like to hear is the WHYS & WHY NOTS from experience.

quote:

However outside of 120 pound leopard, the cartridges you mention have no place for dealing with other DG.

Funny, some of my fellow bowhunters don't think a tradional bow is a viable hunting weapon.......and some rifle hunters think bowhunting on anything more aggressive than bunny rabbit is a "Stunt".

We all know what the say about opinions

Hopefully we'll get a few more experiences posted here.

DB Bill - Very nice Leopard!

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
500 - Respectfully, while I appreciate comments from folks that understand balistics and that are well read, on this subject I'm interested in real world experience.

That is just the point. I will wager that you cannot find a single PH who has fired a 12 gauge, .454, 44 mag, 480 ruger as backup on elephant, rhino, hippo, lion or cape buffalo, by choice, ever. You might find some guy who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and used whatever weapon was in his hand, and survived by the grace of God, but that would hardly prove the suitability of any of those calibers.

Your question is a bit like asking for real world experience of people who have won 1000 yard benchrest competitions with a .22 Hornet, then finding none, you conclude that there is no one on Earth qualified to answer your question.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Well 500 grain in Utah, you can call it theory and bravado, I call it fact.
I realize this is the internet and anyone can say anything they want to with no proof.
Lets see some pics of the Brown Bears you have shot. Your the one calling Bullshit on this one, so you go first. I'll follow.
You guys down there in Utah got a lot of Brown Bears, 500? Or do you secretly guide for Brown Bears in Alaska in season? Come on, your holding out on us. You are actually a World Famous Bear Guide from Alaska, but your just bashful.
Come on, give us your real name!

It seems you have a chip on your shoulder about a 12 gauge and bears. But you have not told us about any wounded brown bears you have backed up with a 12 gauge, either here or on the other thread as undoubtedly you haven'used a 12 ga. for that work. If you had, you would have told the story several days ago on the buckshot thread instead of just getting mad. Hence my conclusion that you are posting theory and bravado.

Use a 9,3 x62 for all normal hunti ng and have a .404 for following wounded things. Hoping to upgrade the .404 to a .500/.416.

There is a world of difference though between guiding, and then backing up a client and hunting yourself. Backing up a client means things have already gone wrong. Hunting for yourself usually means you can pick the shot you want.

I have shot elephant and buffalo with my .41 mag (S&W M58) when we were getting parks to legalise handgun hunting in Zim. Had to shoot both animals in front of a crowd of HQ brass, but since it wazs in Matusadona National Park, it was easy to arrange a perfect set up and 15 yard range for the ele (side brain) and 35 yards for the buff.

That said - the closest I have come to real danger from an ele was my first and 2nd last.
1st one - A PAC bull with an old oil drum stuck on front foot. He charged, I had bullet failure and accuracy failure, and finally ditched my empty rifle and switched to my spare - a light plains game rifle loaded with solids. Dropped that bull at under 5 paces.

2nd last - was asked to see if I could find a problem bull that had attacked two cars on the main Harare, Bulawayo rd near Shangani. Both had been attacked at the pongo memeorial. Parked at the memorial and had just got out when a young bull appeared and charged. Dug my 9,3 out of the rack, loaded one round and dropped it close enough for its trunk to put a dent in my landrover.

Had trouble with a lioness using a .375 but loaded with solids (all the ammo I had and not by choice), the other parks officer also only had solids. She took 2 x .375's , 2x .458's and died riddled with 12 rounds of .41 and .44

5 years ago, a canoe guide was awarded the PH Bravery award here. He had (illegally) taken a bunch of canoe clients walking in mana pools NP, when they ran into some ele who proved agro. He got most of the group clear but one woman panicked and ran off and a cow followed. Knocked he down and tried to put a tusk in. The guide ran forward, drew his Ruger .44, Pulled himself up on the cows tusk, Pressed the revolver against her head and let six rounds go. Did't kill her but she was a mite dazed and wondered off leaving the party to casavac the woman. Guide was using a 5 1/2" redhawk with some Barnes made flat nosed 240 grn mono (a special order for a canoe company some years back). Since we never found the ele we don't know why she lived - did they fail to penetrat? or did he miss the brain? (guide got the award but lost his licence!)

From our parks records use nothing under a .404 for hunting ele in the jesse. They can get too close before you have the chance for a shot.

Does Ganyana mean "Cat who has already used up eight lives"?

500 - It seems tack is wasted on you my friend.

I'm really not interested in debating the validity of my question, posed to people that actually know what they are talking about.

Ganyana - Thank you! Your post was greatly appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
500 - It seems tack is wasted on you my friend.

It probably is since I do not own a horse. Or did you mean 'tact'?

Boss

Bumbling ecologists who are too bussy looking at "the whole show" lead interesting lives. Was riding a motorbike along the Dete vlei and watching a jackal- odd out in daylight and debating weather to shoot it for a rabies sample when I rode into an elephant. Bike stalled and I fell off but fortunatly the bull got nearly as big a fright and after shouting loudly at me to look where I was going wandered off.

I think the best two though were both Kevin Dunham (was Ecologist mana pools). Walking through an "exclosure plot" (fensed off pen to let the vegitation grow) when he stepped on a large tawny snake with a black head. He jumped and was trying to identify it when the lion attached to the "snake" hit him a full clop. Fortunatly dind't extend it's claws but Kevin was black and blue from from shoulder to waist. A month later, in the same place he found himself being stalked by a large lion. Tried all the tricks to scare it off and finally broke and sprinted for the landrover, He reached the seat as the lion slammed into the door- Research scout (unarmed as is "de rigure" for reasearch personellI standing on the cab roof shouting for kevin to get his act together and Drive! Kevin bought a revolver and opened his eyes and never needed the handgun


18 months ago, Norman monks - Kevins' replacement at Mana got run over by a buff as he walked home from the office. Buff was smearing him along the ground when the fluttering pages from Normans' clip board - which he had dropped- attracted the buff attention, and the buff ran off to kill the clip board leaving Norman to make a stagger for it (he certainly couldn't run with all he had broken).

JudgeG- animals are actually quite safe to be arround provided you a) see what you are looking at - unlike Pete Frost who jumped out of the landrover and ran back to the office to pick up something and ran straight into an ele. Five of us in the vehicle had all seen the ele and were wondering what Pete was doing... Fortunatly the bull took it well. and b) Shoot straight.

People are a bit more tricky and to the above I'll add c) Listen to the advice of those who know what they are doing. I got shot because I didn't listen to my Sargent Major... I then had to enjure a five hour lecture from him as he drove me to hospital (we were the only two on station who could drive). He had been there as senior NCO for 25 years. I was freshly back in the bush after a year back in University. Stale, no "bush eyes", and didn't listen.

Gee, how do you explain riding into an Elephant to the insurance company

quote:

Listen to the advice of those who know what they are doing.

Wisdom to LIVE by!

Ganyana

Great stories, you need to write a book if you haven't already.

CFA

I have not had a problem yet using my 500 Jeffrey for a backup. I stopped using the 12 gauge pump when my good freind absolutely ruined a leopard trophy of his client's by putting 4 rounds of 00buck into it broadside and head on at about 15 yards. The taxidermist had a hell of a time putting a good trophy together and the client was PISSED. I saw the next year helping a friend on a lion hunt that 12 ga. 00 buch is particularly worthless on a tensed up lion at 20 yards or so. After the cat was put down and skinned, most of the 30 cal. balls from the 00 did not penetrate more than a few inches on a frontal shot. Three of the pellets hit the skull and rode it under the skin, one hit the nose and was found in the soft pallette in the back of the throat, four hit the left side of the chest/neck on angle for the heart, none made it thru the first layer of muscle, the last hit the top of the left leg and penetrated thru, but stopped on a rib on re-entering the chest cavity under the leg. That kinda woke me up a bit.