I saw on a website that the day rates for buffalo and or elephant were 1000.00 per day...but for cats..buffalo..elephants...it went to 2750.00 per day...why.....bob

Because people will pay it.

Yep...
It's very simple supply and demand...
Very few tags for cats and elephants.
Outfitters depend on these very few hunts for their very survival and to pay for the concessions and anti poaching..etc...etc..

Bob the answer is long and varies somewhat dependent on the country, but basically in the scenario you describe you are buying multiple hunts, each with separate selling prices and cost structures. These cost structures are based on what the lease holder has to pay for an area, and charge, to meet his obligations (including the conservation aspect that allows hunting to exist), and basically stay in business.

So for example, if an area comes up for tender, one of the keys is what the quota looks like for the various animals. There could be 100 impala, 20 buffalo, 10 elephant, 5 leopard and 2 lion (just an example). Obviously a lion commands a higher price than an impala, and there is a workable supply/demand in place. This, combined with all the other costs and production variables are estimated and calculated, plus a required return (profit). A bid is made, and if won, this dictates the cost structure.

The government may impose certain minimums for certain species such as on the number of days, and dictates often the trophy fee costs, amd collects appropriate tax. Plainsgame may work out to required selling price of say a $500/day rate with no minimum day rate, whereas buffalo is $1000/day for a minimum of 7 days, noting the operator may set a longer minimum and base his model on this.

So this why a buffalo has a typical list price of say $15k with TF, whereas an elephant may be $25k, and a lion could be $50k. There is wiggle room, but for the most part the operators are dealing with fixed costs.

Operators may combine species on a hunt, but they need to still get the required minimum, and one could hunt the totality of the separate hunts, or as commonplace, the operator will reduce the number of days but adjust the day rate to account for what they need to get. There is some tangible savings that are typically passed on. However, generally speaking while a PH on a dangerous game hunt may get paid more than a plainsgame hunt, the difference in various hunts is not dictated by things such as what camp one stays at or similar incidentals.

This is just one scenario, and government concessions or communal areas are going to have different dynamics compared to private game farms. There are industry insiders here who can provide more accurate and granular information, but this question comes up on AR often and generally most of the responses are based more on emotion than an understanding of how the business operates. Hope this answered your question!

thanks bill....that makes sense….bob

bob,

Daily rates are not standardized. Your average quality buffalo or elephant hunt by itself is going to be somewhat above $1,000 per day. Basically when you combine 3-4 of the Big 5 in any one safari the price will go up as you add more of the animals that have limited quota. A good operator I use in Mozambique gets $1,300 per day for a buffalo, $1,500 for a elephant but if you combine elephant, lion, buffalo it's $2,500 per day.

Mark

I would have thought that one of the drivers for daily rates would be where you were hunting and hunter expectations. I have no experience, but I've read a lot of hunt reports over the years. I've always appreciated the wealth of information shared here.
I would think that in some area's , buffalo would be relatively close to existing facilities that could have other uses. That would allow annualized costs to be spread over a larger client base
Lions and elephants in huntable numbers would, in my mind, be found where facilities would be only for hunting, would need support staff and equipment brought in, and probably some antipoaching folks. I would think there are more people and equipment needed and a much smaller client base to support it.
I can imagine that if a hunter is spending really large sums for the hunt, he or she would not want to sleep under the truck and eat cheese sandwiches made with rancid cheese and stale bread three times a day for three weeks. Good food, camp services, and access to really remote area s can't be cheap, even where manpower costs are not high.

I may be wrong on this, and the real experts can and should correct me.
Bfly

I’d sleep under the bush ( Nixon’s Sengwe was simple and all was well )
As long as I’m in game rich area
Who the hell cares about fancy camp, I don’t
Just show me the game and gimme some grub

One would think that the daily rate would cover the costs of the camp and hunting area lease and would be independent of the specie(s) hunted. Fancy camp/big area/remote area = high daily rate. Then the more desirable species would command higher trophy fees. And it's also logical to specify a minimum stay for certain species that are harder to bag. This is true for the most part on private ranches. Simple and easy to understand.

But on the concessions, a practice has evolved where the operator links the daily rate to the species, and also to the number of desirable species booked. So you can do a plains game hunt at x per day, but a buffalo hunt might run you 2x per day. And if you want to do a buffalo and an elephant, 3x per day. The logic for the former is the operator has only so many buffalo on quota and his plains game hunting is not on a par with the ranches with whom he must compete in that regard, so he discounts one and upcharges the other. The logic for the latter practice is a little harder to follow (for an argument could be made that you are buying in bulk and should get a discounted daily rate): in theory, he could sell the elephant hunt separately and earn another check for daily rates on a that separate hunt; so if you want to hunt both concurrently, you must pay a higher daily rate. This is only logical if his quota is limited and he has enough camp days to sell his quota separately and sequentially vs selling it in parallel, which is sometimes true but for the most part, this is flaky logic as he is going to make you stay longer anyway so in effect he is selling the quota on two sequential hunts, almost. Bottom line, they get away with it and it's become standard practice in many areas. I think it's a negotiating point, especially late in the season when the operator's chances of selling all of his quota as separate stand-alone hunts are starting to dim. The starting point for the negotiation is "OK, then I will buy two sequential hunts at the lower daily rate, overlapping the day of departure and arrival, and I want a credit for the fact that there is only one round trip to camp and not two". Or, if you are a smart-ass "OK but I want two vehicles and two PHs and two sets of staff in convoy, one for my buffalo and one for my elephant. When we see a buffalo, we will hunt with PH A; when we see an elephant, we will hunt with PH B"

Russ: You never disappoint!

When discussing why the monies paid for various hunts are different, it is helpful to use words rather precisely.

it is best to keep clear that "Costs" = the operators input costs such as food, labor, concession, gov't fees.

"Price" = what the operator charges for a given service.

As many have mentioned/implied the actual cost to conduct a buffalo hunt per day is likely not 3x the cost to conduct a PG hunt. However, when the operator looks at their total Cost for the season, the mix and the content of the hunts they are likely to sell, the amount of profit desired, and the perceived value by the buyer it can create a Price list that is not proportional to Costs.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
When discussing why the monies paid for various hunts are different, it is helpful to use words rather precisely.

it is best to keep clear that "Costs" = the operators input costs such as food, labor, concession, gov't fees.

"Price" = what the operator charges for a given service.

As many have mentioned/implied the actual cost to conduct a buffalo hunt per day is likely not 3x the cost to conduct a PG hunt. However, when the operator looks at their total Cost for the season, the mix and the content of the hunts they are likely to sell, the amount of profit desired, and the perceived value by the buyer it can create a Price list that is not proportional to Costs.

I'll guarantee you the fees paid to purchase the quota for buffalo, elephant, leopard, lion, are MUCH higher than they are for plains game. This must be figured into the outfitter's cost structure.

In Tanzania an outfitter gets a specific quota for the year.

He has to pay a minimum of 40% of its price, whether he sells any or not.

It is to his advantage to sell as much of the quota as he can.

Certain species - buffalo for example - are in demand by hunters.

But a lot of the lesser species - impala, kongoni etc - are not as much in demand.

Also certain species, in certain times, are not found.

Lion, leopard, crocs etc are on quota and the outfitter has to pay for them, despite the fact that one is hard pressed to find a suitable ones.

Todd,

I am not disputing that at all nor does anything in my post dispute that and that is one of the reasons that trophy fees for those animals are higher.

Additionally, different operators choose to structure their Price differently. I have seen operators in the past have lower daily rates for buffalo by as much as 30% than other operators but higher Trophy fees.

Basically, the outfitter is in business to make a living.

How he structures his price is immaterial.

You like it, take it.

You do not like it, go somewhere else.

Trying to argue about one aspect of a hunt is not going to achieve anything.

You can of course negotiate a total price if you wish.

Sometimes price structuring can be material to a selection of an outfitter.

If an operator A charges $1000/day for a 10 day hunt & a $3000 trophy fee versus operator B who charges $700/day and a $6000 trophy fee the client takes less risk. Likewise, Client might even be willing to pay $600/day and a $9000 trophy if expected success rates are low but trophy quality is high.

These are all matters of personal preference.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Because people will pay it.

…………...Some people will pay it but I certainly will not!
I can see large trophy fees for exceptional animal. But those daily fees are ridiculous. costs no more per day for the outfitter to hunt an elephant that it does to hunt a impala!

The requiring more days minimum to allow a hunter to shoot one animal over the other. That is what the large trophy fee is for.

Of course it has been a long time since I've been to Africa so there may be justification, that I'm not aware of, for the more days and larger daily fees as well.
I would love to hear the reason from someone who knows though!
……………………………………………………………..

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37: costs no more per day for the outfitter to hunt an elephant that it does to hunt a impala!

...and there it is!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37: costs no more per day for the outfitter to hunt an elephant that it does to hunt a impala!

...and there it is!

Yes.

And there are as many elephants in Africa as there are impalas too

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37: costs no more per day for the outfitter to hunt an elephant that it does to hunt a impala!

...and there it is!

Maybe, maybe not.

If I am not mistaken, most SA outfitters will charge differently between a plains game and DG hunt - their reasoning being plains game can be guided by an appy (costs less) while a DG hunt has to be overseen by a fully fledged and experienced professional who comes at a price.

If the PH falls into the "celebrity" class then you are talking big bucks.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37: costs no more per day for the outfitter to hunt an elephant that it does to hunt a impala!

...and there it is!

Maybe, maybe not.

If I am not mistaken, most SA outfitters will charge differently between a plains game and DG hunt - their reasoning being plains game can be guided by an appy (costs less) while a DG hunt has to be overseen by a fully fledged and experienced professional who comes at a price.

If the PH falls into the "celebrity" class then you are talking big bucks.

And you get the bonus of hunting illegally too

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37: costs no more per day for the outfitter to hunt an elephant that it does to hunt a impala!

...and there it is!

Yes.

And there are as many elephants in Africa as there are impalas too

Saeed, The heavy trophy fee and the number of days required to allow the hunting of an elephant is what makes the difference between the two, not the dollar amount of the daily fees!

……………………………………………………………...

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
One would think that the daily rate would cover the costs of the camp and hunting area lease and would be independent of the specie(s) hunted. Fancy camp/big area/remote area = high daily rate. Then the more desirable species would command higher trophy fees. And it's also logical to specify a minimum stay for certain species that are harder to bag. This is true for the most part on private ranches. Simple and easy to understand.

But on the concessions, a practice has evolved where the operator links the daily rate to the species, and also to the number of desirable species booked. So you can do a plains game hunt at x per day, but a buffalo hunt might run you 2x per day. And if you want to do a buffalo and an elephant, 3x per day. The logic for the former is the operator has only so many buffalo on quota and his plains game hunting is not on a par with the ranches with whom he must compete in that regard, so he discounts one and upcharges the other. The logic for the latter practice is a little harder to follow (for an argument could be made that you are buying in bulk and should get a discounted daily rate): in theory, he could sell the elephant hunt separately and earn another check for daily rates on a that separate hunt; so if you want to hunt both concurrently, you must pay a higher daily rate. This is only logical if his quota is limited and he has enough camp days to sell his quota separately and sequentially vs selling it in parallel, which is sometimes true but for the most part, this is flaky logic as he is going to make you stay longer anyway so in effect he is selling the quota on two sequential hunts, almost. Bottom line, they get away with it and it's become standard practice in many areas. I think it's a negotiating point, especially late in the season when the operator's chances of selling all of his quota as separate stand-alone hunts are starting to dim. The starting point for the negotiation is "OK, then I will buy two sequential hunts at the lower daily rate, overlapping the day of departure and arrival, and I want a credit for the fact that there is only one round trip to camp and not two". Or, if you are a smart-ass "OK but I want two vehicles and two PHs and two sets of staff in convoy, one for my buffalo and one for my elephant. When we see a buffalo, we will hunt with PH A; when we see an elephant, we will hunt with PH B"

Pearler

We pay for things we either can't do ourselves or don't want to do. For example, I'm not an electrician, so I pay for that. I'm perfectly capable of doing laundry, but choose not to, so I pay for that too.

You can't hunt dangerous game in Africa without a PH and a whole team of trackers and support staff. So you will pay for that. Cats are a lot more work and worth a lot more per day in my opinion. Elephant is usually a lot more walking -- more work. And, you're paying for the expertise of your PH and crew.

You get what you pay for and pay for what you get. Hire the best and pay the man.

Perfect!