Ran across this page with a list of game Roosevelt took on his safari. Did he take these animals with a 1895 win in 405?
http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trafrica.html
Dean

[ 04-26-2003, 23:39: Message edited by: tonto ]

He also used a Springfield .30-06, and he was given a H&H Royal Grade .500-.465 double, but don't remember if he used it on game.

George

>>>>>>>>>>> "NO" <<<<<<<<<<<<

If you will look at the third photo on the right, and the photo of Kermit, and him sitting on the back of a cape buffalo, you will see both are armed with a double rifle! The doubles they had on that Safari were a 500/465NE, and a 450NE 3.25" both by Holland&Holland. The 500/465 was given to him by some British Noblemen!

The 405 Win he had along was tried on some of the heavy game, with very poor results, wounding many head of game, the had to be followed up and killed with more properly chambered arms. The 405 did turn out to be suficient for cats, and some of the larger plains game! But more of the lighter game was actually taken with a Springfield 30-06 bolt rifle.

The new boxes holding the factory ammo with a drawing of TR, and a rhino, while holding a Mod 95 win, 405 has already led people to think that combination is a large dangerous game rifle,and cartridge! The 95, and the 405 round are nice items, but they are what they are, a nice hunting combination, for things like moose, and bear!

/

HI,

To bad Teddy did not have a win86 in a 50-110, just a litte kidding around guys,Thanks,Kev

Alf beat me to the correct caliber of the Holland, which was, by the way, a back action sidelock non-ejector. Interesting also that it was regulated for the then "tropical" load of 70 grains Cordite and 480 grain nickel jacketed softs and solids, as opposed to the full 75 grain charge.

Kermit's rifle was indeed a .450 3 1/4" Nitro Express but was, alas, a boxlock from John Rigby & Co.

Both rifles were used extensively on the safari. TR loved his .405, but came to trust the .500/.450 more for thick-skinned game.
-------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I thought it looked like a double with the buffalo. I did read that the 405 was " big medicine for cats" I couldnt picture an elephant going down easy with that calb. I believe I read that the 405 took some cats in Brazil? I really was impressed with that list of animals.
Dean

I believe TR did shoot an Elephant with the .405 and it escaped. If my .405 and I get over there we'll be shooting smaller plains game.

To quote Dirty Harry "A man's gotta know his limitations".

Rick

tonto,
Thanks for the link to the page. Nice thumbnail of TR's safari to end all safaris. What other visiting sportsman, be they ex-president, royalty, or whatever, has ever topped that bag? Not even LV Eric or Saeed!
Cheers!

Caliber , and maker's name correction, noted, and in retrospect, agreed to!
Teddy's double is used in the hunting film, "IN THE BLOOD" and it was at the 1990 or 91, S.H.O.T. show in Dallas, and I had an opportunity to handle it! The, then, owner sold some raffel tickets for $20 ea, and the lucky winner, got a chance to shoot this rifle a few times at a local range! It was auctioned a year or so later, and Bought by a man named Greg Martin,for over 1/2 million USA dollars.

After reading Roosevelt's books, it would be hard for anyone to determine if his rifles and loads were "big medicine" or not. Frankly, Teddy is one of my all time favorite people, but details of his hunting just makes me shiver and want to hide the books from the anti-hunting crowd. Things were obviously different in those days, as they say. If you do a rough tally, he was lucky to kill one animal for every ten shots, and if I remember correctly, he admits to this in a couple of places. Shooting for "range" at 500-600 yds with a scope sighted 06 seemed to be a pretty standard practice. They made attempts at following up wounded game, but given their hunting ethics, they often simply didn't know if an animal was wounded or not.

You have to consider too his descriptions of his results. Using 10 to 12 rounds to down an animal and almost getting mauled in the process is often decribed as "good performance."

All in all, I'm not sure if I would have enjoyed trekking with Teddy. I believe he is another example of a North American who didn't really transition to Africa but still enjoyed it. Teddy was so dynamic, he just didn't notice.

With my luck if I tried chasing wounded game across the plain on a horse, miles away from anyone, the horse would step in a hole and we both would end up as hyena poop.

Teddy was one heck of a gentleman but wonderously lucky, IMHO.

Rick

From what little I have read about TR, I have similar sentiments to Art. Another famous writer who's hunting accounts made me shudder in a similar way was Robert Rouark

Like Pete and Art,I feel the same. I know back in "the day" things were different. But in just reading his Lion hunting adventures, he tries unheard of shots, shoots at moving grass and even shot a cub mistaking it for an adult. I read about 50 pages of African Game Trails and haven't picked it up since.

Just curious- what about Ruark's hunting stories made you uncomfortable? I don't recall anything myself, however it's been a while since I've read Horn of the Hunter...just finished Uhuru last night. As for TR, I agree with all above posts- GREAT man, but his hunting methods would not be acceptable today.

[ 04-28-2003, 22:49: Message edited by: Woodhits ]

/

One reason I believe there were so many animals taken on TR's safari was that it was as much a speciman collecting safari for the national museum as much as just a personal hunt.

ALthough TR was a great games man,he some times refused to admit health problems,his poor shooting can be traced directly to his last boxing match at 1600,it damaged his right eye to the point that it caused double vision,which he admits to just once in his writings.

Woodhits,

Its a while since I have read Horn of the Hunter too, but Rouarks writings just did not gel with me. I seem to recall similar incidents to TR's with Rouark taking questionable shots and wounding a fair amount of game in the process. I also got the sense he was an out and out Trophy hunter; he enthuses about a Trophy and the hunt associated with it one day, and then seems to almost disgrade them if he takes a better speciman of the same species just a few days later.

Actually my tasts in reading has changed over the years. When I was a teenager, I devoured every word written by Capstic, but now finds his writing a touch too "flowery" at times. Today, I much prefer the more "understated" style of Corbet or Anderson...

Regards,

Peter

[ 04-29-2003, 17:22: Message edited by: Pete E ]

I think you see this in quite a few writings from the past. In "African Hunter" Melon shoots 2 Kudu and because they did not reach the 50" mark throws them in a river.

The list of animals shot is very impressive with number of lions, elephants and rhino but I cant see any kudu, sable and leopard. Which are among the most sought after animals in Africa!

Saad

[ 05-03-2003, 09:07: Message edited by: Saad ]