I just came back from 3 weeks in Namibia on a plains game hunt, and I used the 160gr TSX in my 7mmRemMag exclusivly. I was not happy with them. This is my opinion based on my experiences, and I'm not trying to trash Barnes or anything like that.
Here it goes:
Eland..2 shots at 50 yards broadside, behind sholder. bullets under skin on off side. went 50 yds...perfect preformance

Zebra...3 shots 312yds.#1 behind sholder, exited with dime sized hole. #2 facing, center chest, no exit penetrated approx 3 feet. #3 broke near sholder and exited with quarter sized exit....Perfect preformance

2 Kudu's...2 shots each at 100 yds behind sholder...both 2nd shots were as animal began to run away. All shots exited with dime sized exits.....Would have prefered more expansion

Gemsbuck...2 shots at 300yds. #1 behind sholder..dime sized exit. Animal ran 50 yds standing under tree when I shot again behind sholder. ran off and dropped 200 yds. Dime sized exit again.....Want more expansion.

Red Hartebeast....one shot 220 yds behind sholder. ran maybe 300 yds and dropped. Exit smaller than a dime......More expansion.

Impala...1 shot behind sholder..tiny exit.

Springbuck....same as impala

3 Warthogs....same as well.

I have been thinking alot about it now...for game, zebra size and up, I think the TSX is PERFECT. For all others, I think that they are way too hard. I don't think that they did enough damage (I know all of my animals were DEAD)and I feel a softer bullet would have done a quicker job. Next time I think I will use accubonds. My cousin used 160gr partitions in his 7mm, and had huge exit wounds. My 2 cents

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfgar:
I just came back from 3 weeks in Namibia on a plains game hunt, and I used the 160gr TSX in my 7mmRemMag exclusivly. I was not happy with them. This is my opinion based on my experiences, and I'm not trying to trash Barnes or anything like that.
Here it goes:
Eland..2 shots at 50 yards broadside, behind sholder. bullets under skin on off side. went 50 yds...perfect preformance

Zebra...3 shots 312yds.#1 behind sholder, exited with dime sized hole. #2 facing, center chest, no exit penetrated approx 3 feet. #3 broke near sholder and exited with quarter sized exit....Perfect preformance

2 Kudu's...2 shots each at 100 yds behind sholder...both 2nd shots were as animal began to run away. All shots exited with dime sized exits.....Would have prefered more expansion

Gemsbuck...2 shots at 300yds. #1 behind sholder..dime sized exit. Animal ran 50 yds standing under tree when I shot again behind sholder. ran off and dropped 200 yds. Dime sized exit again.....Want more expansion.

Red Hartebeast....one shot 220 yds behind sholder. ran maybe 300 yds and dropped. Exit smaller than a dime......More expansion.

Impala...1 shot behind sholder..tiny exit.

Springbuck....same as impala

3 Warthogs....same as well.

I have been thinking alot about it now...for game, zebra size and up, I think the TSX is PERFECT. For all others, I think that they are way too hard. I don't think that they did enough damage (I know all of my animals were DEAD)and I feel a softer bullet would have done a quicker job. Next time I think I will use accubonds. My cousin used 160gr partitions in his 7mm, and had huge exit wounds. My 2 cents

Wolfgar

Before i say anything about the bullet let me just say .. Nice Hunt and well done ..

Do you have any pictures of your hunt or? is it still to soon for the pictures to be back ... I
had to wait with baited breath for John Duarte's
pictures to get back as well .
He also hunted this year in Namibia.

Once again Nicely Done
--------
Now about the bullet .
Your right about the bullet but your a bit off on the weight .

A heaver weighted bullet not a lighter weight and yes a soft lead cored bullet in a 0.040 copper jacket would have done better if that type of bullet had hit the same place as did the Barns.

And.. a bit blunter nose bullet would have worked best.

Noslers Partitioned bullet is a fairly good choise .

But if your really looking for a bullet to hunt plains game you might want to think about
a custom bullet made just for your rifle and its twist and for its barrel length and for the game your intending to shoot.

There are alot of options for style /design of bullet you can work up for hunting plains game

PM me .. i can put you in touch with someone that will work with you on a bullet disign

regretfuly i don't make bullet's smaller then .358 diameter but there is alot of folks that do.

Now dont get me wrong you did great on your hunt



But there is somthing to be said about having more expansion in a bullet.


Once again sounds like all in all a great hunt buddy nicly done

Wolfgar...nice hunt but I don't think the bullet was the problem I think it was shot placement. I suspect you are like me and grew up hunting white-tails and leared to take the "behind-the-shoulder" heart/lung shot as we didn't want to ruin the shoulder meat.

Africa is a different situation and the better location for bullet placemnt is on the shoulder or else angled to hit the off-side shoulder while going thru the vitals. I think if you would have moved your aim a bit forward you would have been happier with the bullet's performance.

DB Bill makes a godd point. The shoulder is the way to go, unless you're shooting tin foil bullets like Ballistic Tips of Sierras, etc. That double lung nonsense is best left to bowhunters. jorge

Wolfgar,

I was wondering the same thing about Barnes, hence my earlier thread about bullet failure.

One thing that neither of us did though is follow Barnes recommendation of going one bullet weight lighter than usual when selecting which to use.

So for your 7mm, perhaps you would have had better results with a 140grn Barnes X?

Also for us non-Americans, just how big is a dime? I have it in my head that those 7mm that expanded to "dime size" must have doubled their diameter?

Regards,

Pete

Wolfgar,
Try the 140gr TSX bullet in your 7mm RM. You will be amazed at how much better it is in terminal performance compared to the 160gr bullet. A 160gr 7mm monometal bullet is the same length as a jacketed lead 190gr bullet, if such a thing existed. There is no doubt that all would agree that such a bullet, even if it were a round nose flat base, would not be practical in a 7mm RM. We (GS Custom) specifically state that our 160gr 7mm monometal bullet should be used in a twist rate of one turn in 8" or tighter, if good terminal performance is to be expected. In standard twist 7mm rifles, the recommended monometal bullet ranges from 140 to 120 grains.
Link 1
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Link 5

I have always been a proponent of the double lung shot, it has always worked for me except on big animals like Buffalo and elephant, too much is made of the heart position of African game, it is so on a few animals but not on others, but any shoulder shot is a killing shot IMO.....

I have from time to time had the same complaints against Barnes bullets going back 15 or 20 years. My take is when they work they are awesome, when the fail they fail miserably...Ross Seyfried tells me its quality control problems in his estamation, I tend to agree with that, high sales volume does tend to defeat perfection...

Gerard,
Thats interresting, and I suspect your being polite, as I have used your 160 gr. bullets in a 7x57 with perfect performance and your heavy bullets in the 8x57 with like results..I have also used your light bullets in most calibers, again with perfect performance..on both heavy and light game I might add..

All great points guy's. My PH did not like the bullets, and told me to go for the sholder too. I told him I would, but in the heat of the moment, I shot for behind the sholder like I do here. I too have thought about the 140 TSX, but I kind of have a bad taste in my mouth now for the TSX. I will get some pictures up soon, and thank you all.

Wolfgar,

Seems to me that a Barnes X that expands from 7mm to "dime" size[.704] did what they were designed to do.


Les

I just got back from Namibia with Boet Nel Safari's and was using a .300 WSM with 180 grain Barnes Triple shocks. I hunt extenesively in Alaska and I too am trained for the behind the shoulder shot. The first warthog at 60 yards crashed on the spot and never moved. The hartebeest was shot at 50 yards and I put it behind the shoulders. It went 15 feet and was down. I shot a kudu at 50 yards behind the shoulders and it went 100 yards. The same with the gemsbok. The last gemsbok was about 250 yards. The bullet was placed low in the shoulder and the animal bounced around and fell over after about 7 seconds. The triple shock performed flawlessly. We NEVER recovered a single bullet and the damage inside the animal was devastating. My PH and I were both VERY impressed with the performance of the Barnes Triple Shock. I am not going to shoot anything else in my .300 WSM here in Alaska. I will stick with the 180 grains TSX and the 168 grains TSX. I feel the bullet performed as advertised and the accuracy is also good.

Use a good bullet and put it through the shoulders, knock his transfer case out and there is usually not any tracking to worry about.

I would rather have a bullet that worked perfectly on big expensive plains game like eland and still killed impala and warthogs than a bullet that pulled the rug out from under a 150 LB 250 dollar impala and let a 1500 LB 1700 dollar eland run off.

quote:

Originally posted by KevinNY:
I would rather have a bullet that worked perfectly on big expensive plains game like eland and still killed impala and warthogs than a bullet that pulled the rug out from under a 150 LB 250 dollar impala and let a 1500 LB 1700 dollar eland run off.

John Duarte in Africa 2005

One shot kill --Custom made bullet

all the game below were killed with one shot from custom made bullets on Johns hunt this year











These are just a very few of what John Duarte killed this year on his 2005 hunt ..All one shot kills --there is somthing to be said
for custom made bullets

Martin

quote:

Ray said:
I have used your 160 gr. bullets in a 7x57 with perfect performance and your heavy bullets in the 8x57 with like results.

I have no doubt about your experience Ray. The 7x57 is more tolerant of longer bullets than the magnum sevens because of it's tighter rate of twist. Our 160gr HP bullet is also shorter than what an equivalent HV bullet would be, if it existed. The same goes for the 8mm calibres. With the exeption of the 8x68S, twist rates are relatively tight and longer bullets are OK.

Here is a guideline of calibres and what weight/length monometal bullet should be used. These recommendations are good for expanding bullets as well as solids in monometal.

For the sake of easier travelling, I took my 6,5x57R kipplauf to SA and Namibia. This little gun, a Blaser K95 breaks down in two pieces and fits in a small, light, case

With the cartridge being on the light side I chose a load consisting of the 130gr TSX at 2,900 fps.

I studied the anatomy of the plains game I would be attempting to take and I realized that their heart and main piping were further to the front and lower in the chest that the European game I normally hunt for. I would concentrate on that shot and try to avoid the one behind-the-shoulder, halfway-down-the-body.

Bodywise, the smallest animal I shot was springbock and the largest was kudu, and in all of them the little TSX proved its excellence.

Exit holes were dime size, but internal damage was always extensive and with animal as tough as gemsbock toppling oever after a frantic 50 meter death run.

I never cared much for the size of the exit holes as I never found it to be an indication of internal damage. In fact, sometimes I have found a large exit hole an indication of a bullet that opened up too late, an undesirable feature in my opinion.

For shooting springbock I would have chosen a 120gr Balistic Tip for example but I would have had to swap bullets for the heavier animals. The TSX allowed me to shoot everything with just one bullet.

Just my 2cts.

Montero

Wolfgar,

The only way to insure a larger exit hole is to start with a larger caliber. Also, just because the smaller game ran after you nailed them behind the shoulder, doesn't mean the bullet didn't perform well. They are just tough little buggers that don't go down easily, regardless of their diminutive size.

When hunting a mixed bag of game, you must make a comprimise on the bullet you are going to use or have different loads for different game (potential problems). Most pick a bullet for the toughest game, like you did. So, they didn't fall over when you shot them, at the end of the blood trail there is a dead beast ready to be loaded in the bakkie.

Instead of looking for better/different bullets, I would recommend going to a larger caliber with a bullet between 210 - 275 grains and a velocity of 2400 - 2800fps. These would include the 338-06, 35 Whelen and the 9.3x62. IMO, they are amoung the best of the plains game calibers.
Good Hunting,
BigBullet

Montero is absolutely right about not attaching too much importance to the size of the exit hole - it is the internal damage that counts. I have personally had very good experience with both traditional X and TSX bullets, even on ligther game (duiker, springbok, pronghorn etc). Hit properly with an X (TSX), I have never had an animal get away from me. But, I do admit to primarily liking and loading them for heavier game. I rarely use them for my hunting here at home, where I prefer a bullet that opens faster to a somewhat larger diameter, at the cost of some penetration.

In Africa, though, you run into such a variety of game (gemsbok/zebra/hartebeast etc vs. duiker/steenbok/klipspringer etc), that you can't load a bullet for every type of animal you might encounter. So you compromise, and if you use a premium bullet (like the X) suited to the heaviest of game on the "menu", you will probably do just fine.

The different testimonials posted above, just goes to show, that it is almost impossible to fairly judge bullet performance even based on the 5-15 animals shot on an African PG hunt. There are just too many variations. So we choose according to our limited experience, confidence really has a lot to do with it. If you don't like the X, hey, no sweat, there are so many other great premium bullets available these days - Northfork, Swift, Trophy Boded, you name it - that it should not be difficult to choose another bullet. Just be aware, next time you come home from Africa, maybe you'll have the same experience with your next choice (I remember a friend who had miserable experince with Swifts in a .300 Win Mag a few years back on gemsbok etc).... This is rarely a cut and dried deal...

- mike

Your experience with large aninals was the same as mine last year in Namibia, though I loved them on smaller critters too. I shot everything with a .338 shooting 225 grain TSXs, while my father shot all his critters with a .270 WSM with 140 grain TSXs. We shot 14 animals and had no complaints about bullet performance. Everything from a small jackal at 40 yards to my kudu at 315 showed perfect bullet performance. I was really impressed with the .270 in that effective performance didn't seem to differ significantly from my .338 when shot placement was similar. I'm convinced that the deep penetrating nature of the TSX even brought a couple critters to bag that would not have been recovered with a more rapidly expanding bullet.

Like these guys say, it's tough to make a call like this with even a dozen animals. My one "failure" with Barnes was an XLC "penciled through a small mule deer buck. I found a caliber sized entrance and exit, and assumed the bullet failed, even though internal damaged seemed pretty significant. In retrospect, I now think that the bullet's petals ripped off (I was shooting the bullet pretty fast and the shot was close), tearing up the deer's innards, but leaving only a small exit wound. I've now shot probably 2 dozen animals with Barnes and have been very pleased with them. Most of my animals have been smaller and lighter than those in Africa, and bullet performance still has been superb. On the rare occasion that a bullet is recovered, it could be in the Barnes catalog. Usually I find a nice little entrance, a dime to quarter sized exit, and massive internal damage between.

I'll keep using TSXs, especially for heavier critters, but there are plenty of bullets out there to try. In fact, I'm leaving for SA in a couple weeks and will be using 225 grain Hornady Interbonds this year, just to try something different.

Good points fellas, and I have to say that I think Big Bullet is absolutly right when he says to just use a bigger gun. I have always thought that my 7mm was perfect for plains game, but I have changed my mind. I wouldn't go with a 416, but something is to be said for the 338 and 375 for everything crowd. IMO

I doubt that using a bigger gun is going to create any miracles for you...I have used small and large rifles and the big bores are certainly not spectacular on small animals as bullet construction is very tough and the big bullets just drill them..Those bullets are designed to expand on very big tough creatures and not on plainsgame..What your after is full expansion and a exit hole..With the right bullet you should get a 50 cent size exit hole with the 7MM mag. The 7 mag is certainly all the power one would ever require on plainsgame, even the 06 is capable of that chore. I suggest you try the heavy Noslers or Northforks before you go shooting plainsgame with a 416, however the 416 kills them, just not quickly, but it leaves a good blood trail.

It has been my experience that BarnesX bullets work very well on Eland, Buffalo and bigger animals, but I have seen many failures on smaller Antelope...I have also seen them pinch shut and not travel straight, and recovered them bent on the end with no expansion..fortunatly they don't fail all that often, most bullets that are not good game bullets just fail ocassionally and that is why a lot of folks swear by them, as they have not been as unfortunate as other have.

The problem I see in many of these posts is opinnions are founded on limited use of a bullet, such as the killing a half/dozen head or so to prove or disprove a bullet..It takes a long time and lots of game to prove a bullet.

As to the location of the heart and lungs on African animals I see a lot of misrepresentation going on..Some of these animals have the motor more forward, but many do not, its the hunters responsibility to know which do and which don't..Cats have the motor way back behind the shoulder, so do Sable and both Wildebeest for instance...that said a behind the shoulder shot will kill any animal in Africa, same as it will in the USA.

Atkinson,

Putting together opinions from people with too little experience, is probably better than counting on the sole opinion of somebody with too much experience.

As for bullet placement, a behind the shoulder shot will kill any animal. Agreed, but a bullet in the abdomen, will also kill, eventually, any animal.

The question is if a bullet in the top of the heart/aorta area will kill faster than a bullet in the lungs, specially when shooting a smallish-for-the-animal cartridge.

Montero

My experience with the barnes triple shock is limited to the animals that I shot in Africa, but my experience wtih the X is pretty extensive with moose, brown bear, goats, sheep and caribou. They have NEVER failed. I have 4 perfectly formed x bullets recovered from 4 different moose that were shot out of my 8mm Mag. THe bullet penetrated completely through the moose and was bulging against the hide on the opposite side of the animal. They were 200 grain bullets that weighed 199 grains each. The bullet expanded just like it was supposed to. I tend to agree that the barnes probably performs better on the larger animals, but it sure kills the smaller ones just as well. I was even more impressed with the triple shocks as we never recovered a single bullet out of 9 animals shot in Africa. I am one that like an entrance and exit hole.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:


I have from time to time had the same complaints against Barnes bullets going back 15 or 20 years. My take is when they work they are awesome, when the fail they fail miserably...Ross Seyfried tells me its quality control problems in his estamation, I tend to agree with that, ...

Ouch!

However, I agree completely. The field reports on Barnes bullets vary so widely from fabulous to crap, that poor quality control is the most obvious culprit. Maybe their copper is of inconsistent hardness. On their solids, I have seen the cannelure located somewhat randomly within a single box of bullets! Aaaargh!

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:
Wolfgar,
Seems to me that a Barnes X that expands from 7mm to "dime" size[.704] did what they were designed to do.
Les

Les, that's what I thought, too. From .284" to .704" (or so).
I have never hunted in Africa, so maybe animals are different there, but a bullet that expands to 2 1/2 times it's original diameter is as good as it gets over here.

I don't know how much more expansion one could expect or even hope for.
The weight was wrong, also. With X bullets go with the smaller weight bullet.

My habit on whitetails has always been behind the shoulder lung shot so as not to destroy too much meat. It's such a pain to bone out those short ribs anyway.

Instinct took over in the heat of the moment when my first shot at any African game was a gemsbok sneaking through the bush. Bang! Eric the tracker said I missed cause he didn't hear the thwack of bullet hitting meat. So we walked in that direction and Alex the other tracker said what's all this blood if he clean missed? We followed the trail 60 yards to a dead trophy. It was shot exactly where I aimed and went right straight through. The 338-06 225 Barnes X did everything I had hoped for; given two holes for the life to leak out of and for those fabulous bushmen trackers to follow an easy bloodtrail.

However, I changed my tactics for the next 13 animals. I made a concerted effort to aim FOR the point of the shoulder instead of behind it. I wanted to break bone and drop everything else in their tracks. I didn't want to take the chance of losing an animal but still ending up paying the trophy fee cause I wounded it. So, from hyrax, steenbok, and springbok to warthog, zebra, and 2 kudu, they all went straight down. I ended up gutting the steenbok and hyrax in the process. So much for solid copper hollow points not opening up on soft game! Never recovered any bullets even after smashing through heavy bone. My trackers never had it so easy. IMO, no bullet brand or style could have done a better job.

I agree with Ray that bigger is not going to get you more dramatic results. I just got back from Nambia, (I shot a 375 H&H -270 gr TSX. and 416 rem mag 350 gr TSX.) With the 375 I took Springbuck, blesbuck,gemsbuck,zebra,kudu and hartebeest: With the 416 I took blue and black wildebeest,zebra gemsbuck,and eland. My wife took a Zebra with the PH's 3006, useing 160 gr partion's, and gembuck with 150 gr barnes x. Both her animals were hit high shoulder and droped to the shot. All animals shot with the 375 hit high in shoulder dropped to the shot. only the zebra ran First shot standing faceing me skidded across the breast bone at 300 yards it entered the stomach then exited near his hook. Two shots on the run at 300 and 250 yards both hit in the ham about 2 " apart. I saw the last hit added more lead and put one throught the triangle at 225yrds down it went. With the 416 the Eland was shot in front of 2nd to last rib it was found under the skin mid ribcage off side, He stood for 4 or 5 min as if I missed him the herd left he came out from hiding showing me his front shoulder, I put one throught the point of the shoulder it exited 2" behind the spot were the first shot came to a rest ( down he went} blue wildebeest shot low heart 225-250 yrds ran 175-200 yrds blood trai 6 foot wide, found dead. At 200 or so the Zebra was shot throught the ham while faceing away from me,the round exited mid rib cage on the off side. It ran for about 45 sec,it was found dead about 200 to 250 yards away. The TSX worked well on the smaller game not to much damage,(big wound channels but not bloodied up so bad} exit holes were bigger than where they entered. The 416 did more damage than the 375, the 375 did more damage than 3006. All animals shot through the high shoulder went down with out a step but required a finisher. Those shot low chest ran off and were found dead. Having watched the gemsbuck fall to the 06 and told how the zebra fell without a step you could think the 06 was as strong as the 375, and watching the wildebeest and zebra run off after hard hits with the 416 you could conclude it is not as deadly as either the 06 or 375. We all know none of that is true. If you hit them and break them down or shock the CNS they will go down with out a step, but require a finisher. If you shot throught the heart or lungs they will run to they bleed out. Its all about shot placement and useing enough gun with a tough enough bullet. Bigger bores make for easier tracking,and allow for less than the classic broad side shot. I could have killed everything with my 260 with the right bullets, but I may not have found all my animals.These are just my thoughts based on my first trip to Africia june 8th - 17 2005. We were hunting 90 miles east of Windhoek. Shots ran fron 150 yrds to well over 300. Only one TSX was recovered a 416 in the Eland it looked like the one on the barnes ad, the 30 cal partion was found in the far lung of the zebra (the front half was gone the base was undamaged.

JD

Maybe I've been lucky, but I've yet to experience anything but perfect performance from every X-bullet I've loosed at a game animal.

They just kill.