well folks i thought i would share some of my answers to what is a common question i am asked ..

a lot of people who buy a double and then look at the price of the ammo realise that it will take thousands of dollars to get used to/profficient with the double trigger layout , after all most shotguns these days are single trigger or english stock ...

heres what i recommend , get a stoeger uplander SxS shotgun , its got a pistol grip an double triggers .. the best part of that is that the gun is less than $400 !


then get a set of cheap express sights and solder them onto the rib and hey presto you have a practice gun that costs pennies per shot to use !!!!

i have two that i use both for myself and also to teach ....one with the express sights and one with the normal shotgun sights , a few rounds of clays and you will soon get the hang of the double trigger pull ...

a good friend of mine , Ben , who actually posts here regularly did that for his father who will be hunting with me and he tells me its working well!

As you get used to the double trigger pull etc , i would recommend not more than 6 shots in a session with your rifle , following a few rounds with teh shotgun ..., both from a recoil tolerance perspective as well as the $$this will maximise your practice time .. doing clays will encourage you to use that second barrell fast and efficiently ..



lots of ideas on targets , but thats probably for a different discussion , get used to this trigger configuration and the feel of looking down the side by side barrells ..and of course using that second barrell !!!

god luck out there !

Hi Ivan!
What a great idea! I must get me a cheap SbS to practice with before I ruin my self with Kynoch .450/400 3 1/4" ammunition

By the way, Sabatti of Italy makes a cheap slug gun thats seems to be perfect as parctice rifle;



Mod. SABA SLUG - cal. 12

Side by side shotgun for wild boar hunting with ball cartridge ammunitions.
Barrels lenght: 24 inches. Improved cylinder chokes for slug. Profiled front sight and registrable rear sight.

Controling recoil and yes you will get used to the bang with a regimin of shooting.. No, you don't have to get hurt and stick it out " be a man"...
This is how I hold it... Remember isometric exercises??? I am a right handed shooter so here goes: Left hand on forend and right hand on pistol grip of 'double' or 'bolt rifle'... I push towards each hand and hold with a crushing hand grip and firm on shoulder like a firm hand shake... Fore arm & bicep muscles are tensed up like saying look at my muscles and upon the shot the arms handle much of the recoil like a shock absorber... Rifle goes up around 4 to 6 inches and comes right back to plane...
To strengthen my hands I use one of those hand squeezers when driving and you have to get the muscles used to the tensing or you will start to shake... Feels wierd but it works and I started with a 458lott and now shoot a 450#2 double...
I shoot all year deer, groundhogs and lots of rocks...Very little paper, water balloons...moving targets...

Video clips of how my sone and I shoot the double..

http://picasaweb.google.com/re...authkey=UEOPYCj-Ofo#


Mike

I also suggest that you pick up 4 snap caps for your double but be sure to get the ones that are shaped like full size cartridges. If you can't find any then load some dummy rounds without primer or powder and insert a thick piece of rubber into the primer hole. With these you can dry fire to your hearts content, getting use to the trigger pull and switching triggers.
You can also practice rapid reloads and the cost is minimal.

465H&H

Two things about double rifles: the first is shooting accurately and Ivan has got a way to address that. The second is reloading and maybe the snap cap practice can help there.

I've tried, but never been comfortable with holding two rounds in my off hand fingers. You can't really hold tight with fingers grasping cartridges as well as barrels. So, figure out where/how to carry at waist level and practice getting to them and putting them into the chambers. Ideal would be enough drill to do it without looking. I'm not there yet...

Regards, Tim

Way back when I started hunting with single shot rifles, I found the way to the fastest reload ws to carry extra ammo in a buttstock shell carier.

This was especially true when hunting in cold weather when your belted ammo would be under your coat, or extra rounds in your pocket.

I liked this technique so well that I used a buttstock shell carrier on my Bolt Rifles as well.

Naturally when I gor my first doubles I used the same technique.

However on a hard kicker the buttstock shell carrier will abrade your face [making in bleed] unless you use one of smooth leather, like a Murray product.

I also use a shell carrier belt as well as I like to have a lot of ammo.

My reload process is very simple, after shooting the double, either ejector or extractor, when the chambers are empty of fired brass I pluck one round out of the sheell carrier, put it in the chamber and then if I have fired both barrels and have the time load the seons barrel as well.

I only handle one live round at a time, as I can do this running, foward or backward, and it enables me to get one barrel loaded quickly if necessary.

In all the hunting I have done with doubles, I have never found havinng "only" 2 rounds in the gun to be a handicap.

In fact I have found having the immediate second shot avialable, much more handy than a bolt rifle and a magazine full of shells, whether huntoing DG pr PG.

I picked up a Stoeger SS 12 gauge with double triggers for only $ 300. It is a great cheap way to practice with double triggers. I even took it to Zim with me and using it for some bird shooting. It is an excellent way to go.

Fastest way to reload is to wear a wrist band that holds two cartridges on your left forearm. You drop the rifle open, pull the two cartridges, drop them in and close. Very fast since your left forearm and right hand are close together when the rifle action is opened.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eprod...ct?saleitemid=563878

Notice the wrist band on the left arm:

Husky,

Do you know of someone that sells the Sabatti in the US??

Brett

This is an excellent way to become familiar with your gun. Especially since most of us in the US are not familiar with double rifles. For the past 20+ years, I've shot from 100-200 shells per week at skeet through my Browning Citori. I've shot it enough that it is like an extension of my body.

An important factor in shooting moving clay targets vs stationary rifle or pistol targets is that to successfully hit moving targets with a shotgun, the shooter must focus their eyes on the target and concentrate on the target, not the sights like you do when shooting iron sights on a rifle or pistol.

One of the things that I did prior to taking my big bore to Africa was weekly practice with reduced loads with cast bullets. If you cast your own bullets, these cartridges can be loaded for less than $0.20 each and recoil is just a fraction of your full power hunting loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
Husky,

Do you know of someone that sells the Sabatti in the US??

Brett

Hi Brett,
I don't have a clue!
Ask Mr sabatti at www.sabatti.it

They also makes SbS double rifles in large bore calibers. I will visit them at the IWA Exhibition, Germany in mid March. Will ask them about US importer then.

Cheers

So, Mike, you are loading with your right hand?
Peter.

Husky,

Just noticed your in Sweeden!

I looked at the website and poked around a bit on the web. It appears that they made the SABA Slug in 410 at one time. I've emailed them about it and will post the answer if I receive one.

All the best;
Brett

Ivan,

Back to your topic, great idea. One can hadload for the big double also. That brings down the cost of practice. Now that Horniday is making components things should become quite reasonable.

I've been looking into making barrel inserts for my 470 that could be adjusted for point of impact. I think it's possible.

Another plan is to convert a double shotgun into a double rifle using inserts. The problem is the large degree of convergence built into the shotgun barrels. The Sabatti Slug gun in 410 would be ideal for that as it probably has less convergence.

BYW, I have a copy of your ele hunting video and really enjoyed it. Perhaps the best part is your obvious love for ele hunting. I share the addiction.

All the best;
Brett Trimble

some great ideas here men , bottom line is that clays put you under pressure to make the shot and use the second trigger , lts of other stuff out there to do with the double rifle , this technique is just really to get used to the idea of looking down the sights of a SXS as well as using a second trigger ...

as far as whats the fastest way to reload? thats a personal thing , great idea to have a set of bullett sized snap caps to practice with and on this one to each his own ...

its just fun to shoot double rifles , wish it wasnt so expensive ...!!

quote:

BYW, I have a copy of your ele hunting video and really enjoyed it. Perhaps the best part is your obvious love for ele hunting. I share the addiction.

thanks brett , thats the best part of it all !

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
So, Mike, you are loading with your right hand?
Peter.

Correct.

Great idea, Ivan. Anybody have a photo of what one of these Stoeger double guns looks like?

Lots of good ideas here. As for reloading doubles, I have always felt that trying to carry two shells in my had for a quick reload was not practical. I want my hands free to provide a full grip on my rifle….or anything else that needs to be grabbed. When I first started hunting with doubles I did the Mark Sullivan thing and kept two loaded rounds in my fingers. Eventually they always ended up back in my belt or pocket. I feel it is more important to practice loading from a cartridge belt. I also feel it is faster to “slow down” and focus on your reload than to try and rush things and end up dropping rounds on the ground, or closing the action before the cartridge has completely fallen into the chamber. I have seen and done both during practice shooting. Chris Sells has a video posted on his web pages of his reloading technique. IMO he has his method mastered and it works great with ejector rifles. Extractor guns require a different process however these too can be reloaded very quickly once you become proficient. In fact just last month while hunting in Texas I watched some old fart shooting an antique British POS extractor double prove this very point!

A lot of GOOD advice but when that elephant comes to stomp on you it is mostly just talk!!

Come on, how many of you guys have tried to pull the first trigger twice or have slipped off the front trigger and fired both barrels? Now don't lie, because these stories get back!

If you grew up only using double triggers you are home safe, but if you have ever used a single trigger shotgun for example, my vote goes to the elephant!

quote:

Great idea, Ivan. Anybody have a photo of what one of these Stoeger double guns looks like?

http://www.ableammo.com/catalo...hp?products_id=31455

this one is $329 ...hard to beat that ! i will be honest they feel like a 329 dollar gun , and i am not sure how long they will last but still great for the purpose !

If you can learn something from frustration, take a shotgun with double triggers quail hunting for the day, and after your numerous attempts to shoot a bird using that first trigger twice, you'll soon feel about a foolish as I did last week....

rather quail than elephant

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
rather quail than elephant

Don't doubt that didn't come to mind!

Question about "double triggers"? How many shoot the forward trigger first as opposed to the other way around? To me (and haven't shot them much) that a rear trigger first would eliminate the "double firing" and make the second shot a "reach for" the forward trigger a little more methodical.

Thanks Ivan for the link to the Stoeger gun.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Great information and suggestions, if/when I ever stop spending my money on elephant and buy a double, this is the first thing that I will do to get used to the two triggers.

Until then, I'll keep practicing with my BuzzBee Double, which works quite well on charging wall-mounted buffalo.



It has a single trigger, but it shoots flat point solids!

Will, are you saying that there are those among us who, when been confronted with a real elephant, have continued to yank on the same trigger, or double-fired?

Say it ain't so!

Only kidding guys, because I am jelous!!!

Ivan

Good advice, I bought a Spartan/Baikail SPR220/IZH43.
12 ga with screw in chokes and 20" barrels double trigger and non ejector.
$260.00, I then got a set of conversion tubes from EAA in FL.
$320.00 I now have a 45-70 DR for $600.00.
I made a rib and front sight base and added a Marbles fibre optic front
and Dakota Express rear sight.
It shoots well enough with factory ammo, but even that is getting up there in price.
So I have worked out some loads using cheap 458 bulk bullets from Remington.
405 grain and 300 grain.
Good for practice and deer here in Michigan.
Alot cheaper than feeding my Krieghoff, still can't wait for Hornady 470 ammo to hit the streets, if they keep the price around 100 bucks that is.
I do have a question though.
What are your thoughts about practicing in colder climes that where you are going to hunt?
Michigan is -15 deg C right now, I still step out and let a few fly. But everything is very diffrent at those temperatures.

Cheers

Ivan,
Are you going to be at the Feb. 11th HSC dinner on the Elephant video?

As to the two triggers issue, having grown up with a Stevens 20 double in my hands, and my subsequent fascination with Parker doubles, the two trigger arrangement is second nature. I second the suggestion to shoot a lot of quail with a two trigger double shotgun.

quote:

Ivan,
Are you going to be at the Feb. 11th HSC dinner on the Elephant video?

Yup craig and i will be there and will be doing a talk ... the talk is same subjects as the DVD ... hopefully will get to see you there ...

I also have a cheap old Winchester sxs double with double triggers for double rifle practice.I could not too highly recommend it.I also went a step further and reversed the action of the triggers so the rear trigger needs to be used first-since that is how I shoot my 500 Searcy-you will be amazed how quickly you can move from rear trigger to front trigger without thinking about it.You can easily hit a bit chip off a poorly struck clay in mid air.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

Will, are you saying that there are those among us who, when been confronted with a real elephant, have continued to yank on the same trigger, or double-fired?

I've done both.

what are the target set-ups everyone is using??

tossing clays, paper etc..
I am not sure what is a good target set up to practice shooting buff and ele with a double.

I get the clay shooting for trigger pull---but what else is everyone doing?
thanks

450, I just like you said let a few fly all the time... That way you are always tuned to sliding the finger automatically to the other trigger...

Mike