The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting SCI response to OoA is weak----Update-hunt sold for 20KGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| SCI response to OoA is weak----Update-hunt sold for 20K | Login/Join |
| One Of Us |
Hello guys and gals. I briefly met some of you at the SCI convention. It was great to put faces to names and you seem to be a truly great bunch of people. Please note that I received a forwarded message from an SCI Chapter member that wanted SCI to address the allegations surrounding OaA BEFORE the AUCTION. Note the dates, SCI only responded after the SCI Convention and it is more of a 'Oh, let this come to our attention now that the auction is over' type of reply. You draw your own conclusions. Shawn Murphy just forwarded the message on internally and copied the other Chapter member on this. For reasons of confidentiality the other Chapter member does not want his last name or Country disclosed but wanted me to share this info with you. I cut out the rest of the letter that was already posted here from the bottom of the e-mail. quote: Maybe a few of you would also follow up by e-mailing the other SCI contacts in the e-mail and try to get an adequate response to the letter. | ||
|
one of us |
I took a copy of the most recent banning letter to the Convention and gave it to SCI's Executive Director. I also talked to one insider about how to proceed, and I am doing so. Unfortunately the folks answering the query are "greenies". There will be more on this issue. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
|
| One of Us |
quote: Thank you very much. In the end hopefully they will do the right thing, but it may take some prodding. | |||
|
| one of us |
I originally got this reply to a query about this subject on January 26, but thought it might be good to post it here. Has SCI's official stance changed since I got this? George Here is the reply I got from SCI this afternoon. "Out of Africa has been found completely innocent of all allegations of wrong doings. This is a result of malicious rumors that SCI does not support. Potential buyers of any Out of Africa services should rest assured that this company will legally honor any service sold to them. Best regards, Jason Curtis Auction Program Manager " SCI THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
|
| One Of Us |
Jason's stance has not changed- he told me straight to my face that the letter that I was showing him was a complete fabrication and part of a viscious rumor. I walked away, not wanting a confrontation. | |||
|
one of us |
I am really torn on this issue. The letter referenced in this thread looks official but me being curmudgeon and skeptic needs more proof. Way more than a "document" posted on a forum on the web. If someone could put a link to the government web site that the letter originated from so that this notice can be verified then I would be more inclined to believe the authenticity of it. I have never been to Africa but am planning to in 06. I have been following this issue here for quite a while and I will say that it has influenced me to not book with them just because of this issue. The web is a fabulous technology but over the years I have seen reputations ruined because of flaming and unsubstaniated rumors. Either way I guess I am disappointed in the SCI for not making an offical statement on their page regarding what they are calling "rumors" and offer some proof. crl The average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty; and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies. | |||
|
| One Of Us |
crl, check out The Hunting Report dot com site. They have the official letter that was faxed to them from the Zim office. Please note that the SCI auction hunt with OoA apparently sold for $20,000. You may confirm this by calling SCI and speaking with Mr. Curtis. | |||
|
| one of us |
Thanks Mr. C. Lefty. I will review it. I feel for the poor soul that bought the hunt especially after reading the horror story about the fella that bought a hunt from them at a local chapter banquet. crl The average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty; and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies. | |||
|
One of Us |
crl Don't worry about it too much. There are a lot of good operators in Africa to choose from who have no "rumours', "fabrications", "flambing" going on about, or actually real issues either, so why about this OOA bunch of cowboys. Where there is smoke there is usually a fire. As for flaming on AR, we have had that in the past and the outfitters turned up and defended themselves and came up on top. It is the ones who never defend themselves or run away and hide that have the problems. No one can tell me OOA have not been made aware of these threads on AR. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Does Jason Curtis, the SCI Auction Manager, receive a percentage of what the hunt sells for? | |||
|
| one of us |
I don't know about commissions, but I would assume that given the above email, he might have opened up a liability issue if the hunt was not delivered as advertized. THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
|
| one of us |
The SCI staff does not get a cut of auction items. This guy is brand new in SCI, and is carrying the message that he was given. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
|
| One of Us |
quote: I do not doubt that, but it seems like SCI is the PR representative for OOA. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I was speaking today to a ex-Zim outfitter and landowner (who gave permission to have his comments put up here). Their property was stolen by "warvets" first in 2002. Almost immediately Out of Africa was on the scene shooting game including bushbuck (under restricted permits normally but no special permits for OOA), a semi-tame hippo and numerous other game. Basically pillaging the once rich game property. They were witnessed on the property. They were videoed and photographed on the property. The owners got afadavits from trackers who testified to the poaching on the property. The owners arranged for a "client" to hunt with OOA and he taped conversations with his PH where the PH admitted the illegal poaching on the stolen private properties. The SCI response to all of this was if the owners of OOA were not directly shown to be involved then it is just hearsay !!!!!!!!!!! The owners made repeated complaints to SCI who after all as they run auctions for OOA are in my opinion promoters of OOA and complicit in any poaching on any auctioned hunts. SCI did nothing. It wasn't their business. They basically told the ex-owners they are "just an advertising company" SHAME ON THE SCI. SHAME SHAME SHAME . | |||
|
| One of Us |
One really has to start questioning the motivation of all sorts of people in this organisation. | |||
|
| One Of Us |
I was a member of SCI for a short few years in the mid 90s. But after a while I got the feeling that SCI was all about money, and less about dealing with important issues, and using their influence to do good. I dropped my membership and have had no regrets that I did since. These OOA problems show me that I did the right thing by not giving an obviously corrupted organization like SCI anymore of my money... I suggest that folks who still are members, think a bit over what kind of group they are giving their hard-earned cash to. And what (or in this case who ) that money actually supports. It's clear that SCI won't shape up until they are forced to do so by loosing members (money). | |||
|
| one of us |
"The license to complain is bought with participation in the solution." I came up with that saying some years ago after listening to endless whinging from people who then refused to set things right. I continue to work within SCI on this, I do not have a report that it is fixed and here is the outcome... Before you unload SCI and consign us to the dustbin of history, who do you think is doing s better job? In the last week I went to a CAlifornia Fish & Game Commission meeting with a SCI Washington DC staff guy who presented an alternative to banning lead bullets in California with convincing backup -- and the Commission accepted it and voted down the emergency ban on lead bullets and shot that the antis had petitioned. Nobody else with "safari" in their name even showed up. SCI is the lead NGO in the Eastern Mojave Reserve of Southern California, and we announced this week the initial project to repair four wells. SCI is also in the courts in the US against the anti hunters in six cases. I know people on the Internet want instant gratification, but it doesn't happen in the real world outside cyberspace. It is also easy to invent accusation and claim them to be true. jim dodd if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I don't think anyone "invented" the accusations against OOA. | |||
|
| one of us |
Dan, Look at each negative comments on SCI from such as Erik and Nitro. Each of them accuses SCI of something, then makes the assumption that the accusation is true, then damns SCI for doing "it": circular reasoning at its best or worst. I at least am *doing something* besides talking or making posts. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Jim, I consistently gripe about 1 topic: SCI sells poached hunts under the name OOA. SCI permits OOA to sell poached hunts at the convention. SCI financially benefits from those sales. SCI covers up that the hunts are illegally and says that the allegations are fiction. SCI ignores the hard evidence. Nitrox listed specific evidence given to SCI which SCI chooses to ignore because SCI financially benefits from the poaching that is going on. Why would a legislator listen to a lobbyist from an organization that is selling poaching, even if the poaching they sell is a small part of their overall activity? The house of cards may well fall if SCI does not clean up its act. I appreciate your efforts to get SCI to do the right thing. But SCI's good work in one area does not justify its sale of poaching. | |||
|
| One Of Us |
HunterJim, I also "did something" while at the SCI convention in Reno- but no one at SCI listened to me or would even entertain the idea that OoA might be guilty of anything- even with the official ZIM letter in my hand and a printout of "THE HUNTING REPORT" webpage. Further I have heard from a dozen or so people that have sent SCI an e-mail asking about their position and NOT EVEN IN GOOD FAITH DID SCI EVER EVEN BOTHERED TO RESPOND TO THE E-MAILS! So, HunterJim, what do you have to say now? WHO DO WE NEED TO CONTACT- NAME NAMES AND E-MAILS- PLEEEAAASE! Personally, I would have at least acknowledged that there is clearly a need for a follow-up on behalf of SCI to the ZIM officials etc. and that the hunt auction would be suspended until further notice. INSTEAD, I got the cold shoulder and was told that the information that I presented to them was COMPLETELY UNFOUNDED and UNTRUE- even though SCI NEVER EVEN BOTHERED TO READ WHAT I HAD TO SHARE WITH THEM OR CONFIRM THEIR SOURCES!! TO ALL SCI MEMBERS: DON'T JUST TALK (Like HunterJim mentioned) FOR PUCK SAKE, E-MAIL, WRITE, PHONE, ASK, BUT GD DOO SOMETHING ABOUT GETTING TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS OR GETTING AN SCI PUBLIC RESPONSE AS TO WHAT THE SITUATION MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT REALLY BE! | |||
|
| One Of Us |
Jim, First of all, you need to take a chill pill!  Slinging shit at other posters who express their veiws regarding an organization is a bit strange IMO. It's not like those who criticize SCI are badmouthing your mother!!! Oddly enouh this attitude seems to be the case with many SCI defenders.  "I at least am *doing something* besides talking or making posts." Second of all, this is an internet forum, where "posts" and "talk" is what is done. Usually in a polite manner... I would have thought you knew that with your amount of posts. It appears to me that you would prefer some kind of topic specified censorship; where anything negative about SCI would be dropped... Just exactly what part of the OOA problem do you fail to see? It doesn't take a genius to understand that SCI has been doing something wrong, and it's been a topic of discussion here and elsewhere for some time. Are you saying that Canadianlefty is lying? That the info NitroX got from his PH friend in Zim is bullshit? Just because you don't like what is being said about your "glorious" SCI, doesn't mean it isn't true. You say that you prefer to work from the inside to make things better, and I think that is a good idea. But to do so, it would most likely be helpful if you admitted (at least to yourself) that SCI is doing something wrong when it comes to OOA. Then you could maybe make things better. Wouldn't you agree? | |||
|
| One Of Us |
Let's be Canadian about this, uhh...I mean civilized and peaceful  HunterJim would probably agree that SCI did not handle and is not handling this situation properly. Hopefully, HunterJim and others will come to bat and help us in getting SCI to open its freakin eyes and react to this situation. Again, let us get SCI to uphold the high standard of ethics and values that we signed up as members for in the first place! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Jim INSTANT GRATIFICATION?????? It is 2005. These things happened in 2002 and from many reports continuing from that date. If 3 years is "instant" anyone can get away with anything. No one has commented on you personally. Why the personal attacks? I have read of various happenings on the net and elsewhere. Only on the BS internet, a person, might say. Fabrications per the SCI? Commercial competition some might say? However the person I have spoken to was there, a direct witness, or had employees, friends etc witness it. The comments he makes EXACTLY confirm what was reported on the net. Yet the SCI continues to AUCTION hunts for this outfitter for hunts in a country it is alledged they have no right to operate in ???? And alledgedly operates illegally in as well. (that is what we complain about BTW Jim) How much evidence is evidence ???? This time it is NOT a chapter so it can be passed off as some hick chapter somewhere else. To repeat: (this was told to me so I do not verify or deny its accuracy but why would the person be lying? They have given up and shifted country.)
As for just posting stuff on the "net" well if it puts pressure on organisations to do things they should be doing in the first place, WHY NOT? I have been told all this has been relayed to them many times and they do not care. I have no particular axe to grind against the SCI, no real commercial interest in any competiting business. I am a member of the SCI (if I remembered to renew?) and probably will continue. I do have a real axe to grind on anyway bastard that deals with people hunting on stolen land in Zim. Having been personally involved in a farm invasion does colour my views. | |||
|
| One of Us |
PS - if this is the standard of care, or lack of care, that SCI makes to ensure auctioned hunts are legitimate, a potential bidder really has to question what they are bidding on for ANY hunt. And what other outfitters would want to be associated with auctions where hunts from an outfitter like this one are being auctioned? They also should really putting some questions forward. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Let's face the fact: It is not safe to buy anything auctioned by SCI. So do not participate in the auctions until SCI decides to operate in a more ethical manner. I also would not consider a donation to any SCI program at this time. | |||
|
| one of us |
Canadian Lefty, Thanks for what you have done. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
|
| One of Us |
BTT Jim has a good point in that we all should be emailling SCI about these OOA fiascos. | |||
|
One of Us |
Business as usual will nearly always triumph over doing the right thing. Especially with respect to an "institution" or body corporate, and I mean any institution, including SCI. But it seems to me that this stituation is pretty egregious and it's way past too late for SCI to take a stand. We need to keep up the pressure. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting SCI response to OoA is weak----Update-hunt sold for 20K
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia